764
Topic Author
Posts: 486
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:18 am

Inside sources here in Chicago say that UA is going to cut European service drastically within the next five months. Here's what I've heard:

They will

discontinue 962/963 IAD-MUC
close MUC station
discontinue 950/951 IAD-BRU
discontinue 958/929 LHR-BRU
close BRU station
discontinue 946/947 IAD-AMS
discontinue 966/967 ORD-AMS
close AMS station
discontinue 960/961 SFO-CDG
discontinue 900/901 SFO-FRA
discontinue 930/955 SFO-LHR
start additional service FRA-ORD
start additional service LHR-ORD
start additional service IAD-ORD

Can anybody confirm this?

 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:22 am

Every flight I've been on to AMS from IAD has been packed full.

Goes to show what I know.  Smile

I can't imagine that its a good idea to stop serving Europe from SFO.

But again, what do I know.  Smile

N
 
N777UA
Posts: 566
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:26 am

I can tell you right now that the west coast to Europe flights won't be stopping, those are very popular flights. They could be downgaged from 777s to 767-300, but won't be stopped.
 
scottysair
Posts: 6442
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:27 am

So what??  Insane Wonder to know why United will be discontinued with some of European cities to BRU, FRA, CDG, LHR, MUC flight on UA and I do knew that was always flight is full on the route from FRA-SFO flight on B777 aircraft and LH was used service to FRA, too. SO what is need get expanded more flight out ORD? Please let us know! Thanks!
 
Shamrock1Heavy
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:28 am

When will they discontinue the SFO-LHR??? I am flying that in june!!!
when in hell, we'll do shots at the bar
 
9V-SPF
Posts: 1340
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:36 am

A bit off topic, sorry, but I didn´t want to start a whole thread because of this:
I´ve seen a couple of UA B744s at FRA (yesterday there were two of them parked on the apron at about 10:30am). Does anybody know if they will continue to serve FRA with their 744s or whether it was just a substitution for some days?

Sad to see IAD-MUC go (although it might be the right decision, in contrast to stopping SFO-Europe flights, maybe LH would then start additional frequencies?)

Daniel
 
LFutia
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:40 am

How full are the IAD-AMS and ORD-AMS sectors? Most likely they would probably downgrade EU svc.

Leo/ORD
Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
 
FLY777UAL
Posts: 4830
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:42 am

So...did you make that up, or are your "inside sources" the janitors?

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
Rai
Posts: 1697
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:42 am

I'm surprised they don't cut their Latin American routes...they probably lose more money.
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:49 am

SFO-LHR being axed is unlikely IMO.IAD is the weakest of UA's 4 hubs so downgrading there would not be a surprise.
 
Tom_EDDF
Posts: 424
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 5:19 am

9V-SPF: I think that all of UA's 744s to FRA were military charters to the US Airbase located south of the civil airport.
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 6:01 am

eh, SFO-LHR is pretty intact.

I also ask who your sources are. My friends in Fleet Planning are laughing at this post. :P :P :P

-n
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
764
Topic Author
Posts: 486
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 6:31 am

As to my sources: They are within United, but they are not always completely reliable. I was surprised to see SFO cut that badly. Cutting BRU, MUC and possibly AMS seems reasonable though, as those could be served through London and Frankfurt respectively using LH and BD feeders. Actually that has been discussed before.

But thinking about SFO, maybe it'd make sense to have ORD strengthened as hub for European flights and possibly also IAD. I have heard people discuss a restructuring of the US network, having ORD as central hub, IAD for Atlantic flights only, SFO for Pacific flights and have a stronger link between SFO,ORD,IAD. Obviously that would reduce DEN's role in UA's route network. But this is just speculation.
 
FutureFO
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Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:58 pm

RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:28 am

I seriously doubt that the IAD-BRU and the IAD-AMS flites will go to the wayside. These flights have been full for a long time as well as the IAD-MUC flites. I would wait and see if any news comes from WHQ anytime soon. I have yet to speak to any of my sources at UA so hopefully I will hear something soon.
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:35 am

Apparently the DUS flight was full often but the yields were poor.Shame.
 
haveric
Posts: 1219
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:36 am

The AMS cut may be related to a possible codeshare on US PHL-AMS. Of course, US cut their BRU fights many months ago...

Eric
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:41 am

Full flights does not indicate high loads.

But if UA cuts it's 2 daily BRU flights, almost no direct flights to America are left anymore...

 Wow!

I hope this is not true...

/Frederic
 
LJ
Posts: 4112
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:51 am

discontinue 946/947 IAD-AMS
discontinue 966/967 ORD-AMS
close AMS station


This still leaves the AMS-LHR flight or has your insider forgotten that AMS has three daily flights to AMS during the summer months?

Anyway, KL, CO, NW and DL will be very pleased if UA leaves AMS (unlike most travel agents and travellers)
 
josseposse
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:25 am

RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 9:20 am

Cut all that European service? They could rather quit flying altogether, then. Crap and nonsense.

Indeed, UA has AMS-LHR flights, so either your source was inaccurate, or unreliable, and possibly both.

I'm a little biased, maybe. UA is my outmost favorite carrier from AMS towards the US. Would be a shame to see them leaving.
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 9:51 am

DUS died when they moved it from ORD to IAD. This was a pure money-saving move, as UA saw that 78% of all passengers on the DUS flight were coming from cities west of the 'River (mississippi) and figured they'd connect in IAD and NOT ORD...

but we know how bright UA Mgt really is....

finger paint anyone?

-n
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
Cody
Posts: 2172
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 11:20 am

As most of us already know, the face of United is about to change drastically. Sounds like the whole mission statement may be revised. So even though these rumors cannot be confirmed, nothing would surprise me. Throw in a war with Iraq and dropping the European routes may be the only option.
 
N777UA
Posts: 566
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 11:49 am

Cody is right, United is changing drastically. But certain things will not change. United will still be a full service worldwide carrier. We will still serve 5 continents, and will still be a member of the Star Alliance.

Europe and Latin America will be scaled back, but United will continue to serve the major cities such as London, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, and Brussels.

The core of the new United's international reach will be the Pacific, where along with NW, is the only US carrier with a rather sizeable structure.
 
gigneil
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 5:05 pm

SegmentKing-

West of the Mississippi? Seems if that were true, it'd be backwards logic to move it to the very East coast hub.

Not that I doubt they'd employ backwards logic.

N
 
Britair
Posts: 900
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 9:43 pm

Doesnt UA fly two flights LHR-SFO a day??....so that means they are only cutting one, not discontinuing the route altogether. Sorry to say it but if they dont do things like all the suspensions mentioned they are never going to survive. Sounds rational to me.
 
764
Topic Author
Posts: 486
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 9:55 pm

Yes, they are said to keep one LHR-SFO
 
764
Topic Author
Posts: 486
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 9:56 pm

... but they have now mortgaged some of their LHR slots. So who knows... Biggest mistake in my opinion.
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 10:06 pm

Maybe they will add another ORD flight from the SFO flight being dropped?Will the 1 daily now get a 744?
A few summers back we got 3 UA 744s a day!How things change!
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8005
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 10:55 pm

I think UA will continue SFO-LHR service using one 747-400 flight per day. People forget this is a very high-yield route like LAX-LHR.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Sun Jan 26, 2003 11:48 pm

I think UA will maintain the LHR schedules pretty much as they are. These are valuable and money making routes. The CDG station will probably also remain as is, with flights from SFO, ORD, and IAD. FRA will also probably remain given the huge LH hub there and the myriad of connection possibilities through the Star Alliance network.

IAD-MUC/AMS/BRU
ORD-AMS

Are probably as good as gone. There just isn't the need for UA to fly there. NW/KL and CO have AMS covered and BRU demand cannot be all that big.

I think UA's European network will be focused on London, Paris, and Frankfurt.

ContinentalEWR
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Mon Jan 27, 2003 12:03 am

What about UA's JFK-LHR route? UA has two dailies (down from three) plus one from EWR....but compared with BA, VS, AA, UA is not a big player in the NYC-LON market, at all. Could UA sell the slots? I hope not. They are much better than AA on this route.
 
nickofatlanta
Posts: 1272
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Mon Jan 27, 2003 12:31 am

Unless Bermuda II is changed, I think UA would have to sell its LHR slots as a single package. Remember only two US airlines can serve LHR. Selling JFK-LHR, but keeping SFO-LHR would means that there would be three US airlines at LHR.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Mon Jan 27, 2003 12:40 am

"discontinue 930/955 SFO-LHR"

OI! I might need that. Grr!
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
LJ
Posts: 4112
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Mon Jan 27, 2003 1:24 am

This still leaves the AMS-LHR flight or has your insider forgotten that AMS has three daily flights to AMS during the summer months?

I've to correct myself. The LHR-AMS-LHR isn't in any system anymore for summer 2003 (although UA hasn't cancelled its slot request for this flight yet). Leaves only the IAD and ORD flight at AMS for summer 2003
 
Guest

RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Mon Jan 27, 2003 2:14 am

Very interesting article in today's Times (London), reporting UA's mortgaging of all its UK slots as collateral emergency funding, short excerpt :

"UNITED AIRLINES, the struggling American carrier in Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, has pledged its Heathrow runway slots as security to its banks. The prized slots and all United’s UK routes have been put up as collateral to a group of banks providing £750m in emergency financing.


United, the world’s second-largest airline, is one of only two American carriers allowed to fly into London’s Heathrow airport. Slots — the right to use the runways at a given time of day — are jealously guarded. Aviation industry experts said United’s Heathrow holding, enough for 18 daily flights in the summer, could be worth more than £100m."


[Copyright Times Newspapers 2003]

Rest of article may be found at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-554656,00.html
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Mon Jan 27, 2003 3:04 am

Maybe we should look at this as less of a "United cutting back" issue and more of a "optimizing Star Alliance" issue. With the strong coverage by United's Star partners, especially in Europe, does United really need to fly to so many European destinations? Sure, non-stops are nice, but with seamless alliance connections, I wouldn't mind having to change planes in either London, Copenhagen or Frankfurt to get to Munich, Amsterdam, Brussels or other "second tier" European cities. I want to see a strong airline industry and a successful United Airlines. If this is what it takes to keep people employed and get United out of Chapter 11, then go for it!

As for flights from SFO to Europe....if the cargo and passenger yields don't justify so many frequencies, then cut them. Full plans of people on cut rate tickets and an empty cargo hold, don't help the bottom line. United shouldn't lose money just for our convenience.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
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PW100
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Mon Jan 27, 2003 3:42 am

Bicoastal said:
. . . if the cargo and passenger yields don't justify so many frequencies, then cut them. Full planes of people on cut rate tickets and an empty cargo hold, don't help the bottom line. United shouldn't lose money just for our convenience.

I think the A380 marketing manager couldn't agree more with you! Big grin
This is what Airbus have been telling/shouting to the airline world since the A380 marketing campaign started. Drop those [business-pax-convenient] multi-daily frequencies, and go for the A380! I think another thread is active on this forum, covering this very subject.

PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
bobnwa
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Mon Jan 27, 2003 3:49 am

Bicoastal,

Please list what cities you consider as "first tier" and "second tier." I think Copenhagen is a stretch as first tier if Amsterdam is second tier. What about Paris and Rome?
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Mon Jan 27, 2003 3:54 am

OI! I might need that. Grr!
Perhaps you should ring up SQ head office and ask them to help their alliance partner to maintain this service?


LHR-SFO is prob too long a route for multiple frequencies vs bigger planes to win out.LHR-JFK on the other hand.....
 
LJ
Posts: 4112
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RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:01 am

I wouldn't mind having to change planes in either London, Copenhagen or Frankfurt to get to Munich, Amsterdam, Brussels or other "second tier" European cities.

However the business passenger (and most other pax) won't and they're going to loose them. I don't see a business pax from AMS opting for an extra few hours and/or an uncomfortable transfer (if he or she is to transfer at LHR) if he can fly nonstop on KLM/NWA or SQ (BTW wouldn't this be a better idea codesharing on SQ, but then again SQ and UA don't seem to be very good friends on the AMS-USA route and UA insisted on its own AMS-ORD flight).
 
764
Topic Author
Posts: 486
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:02 pm

Well, I do not really see KLNW as an alternative for UA on any route. Just a few reasons: Economy Plus, In Seat Video, Curteous Service, etc. I personally (and most people I know) would rather spend a while in ugly LHR than hours and hours on a KLNW plane. Of course it'd be nice if the British Airport Authority would finally do something for their passengers........... Anyway, most people won't mind one additional stop, if they can have higher frequencies on those routes. That'll enable them to more freely choose their travel times and optimize their connections. On low frequency markets you sometimes have to sit in one place for six hours or so, because you missed the earlier connection. With higher frequencies from LHR to ORD that could be helped. Like bihourly service LHR-ORD sounds like a good plan to me. And of ccourse a tight network of connections throughout Europe. Same goes for FRA-ORD. And seriously, MUC isn't that much of a big destination market either. Lots of those passengers just transfer in MUC (oddly enough even passengers from ORD to DUS,HAM, etc. do that) and could as well transfer in FRA.
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: UAL Cuts European Service

Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:15 pm

MUC isn't that much of a big destination market either

i disagree on that one. although MUC cannot be mentioned in a sentence with LHR, CDG and FRA, it is very much a big destination for US carriers. no, it should be, let me put it that way. the final destination of 80% of all american travelers flying to FRA (granted, obviously not 80% of the business travelers) is Munich and its catchment area. and that is why MUC is heavily lobbying US carriers to come to MUC which is way behind FRA in terms of US traffic.
if it weren´t for the current economical climate and the state of the US airline industry, i´m pretty sure there would be much more US traffic to and from MUC. but due it not being as established as FRA, it is obviously not the most viable destination for US carriers. and especially not, if there are strong alliance partners which might take over the service...

cheers
daniel




[Edited 2003-01-27 11:17:51]
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.

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