Guest

Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:07 pm

Below is a photo of an aircraft which was taken at Lisbon Airport, probably sometime in the 1940s or 1950s.



OK, here is the challenge.

Name the type of aircraft in the photo. The only information I have on the aircraft, is that there were only ever 2 airlines which flew it, and 1 of those airlines only ever flew that type of aircraft.

What do we know about the aircraft?

* It is a 4 prop aircraft (one of the props can be seen behind the stairs)
* Its capacity is probably around 40-50 people? I say this because of the number of people lining up and walking up to the aircraft.

Myself, and a few other people have discounted quite a lot of the "major" props from that era, including Douglas DC-4s/DC-6/DC-7, Bristol Britannia, etc, etc.

One thing which should be noted is the higher positioning of the stabiliser.

Personally, I am thinking of an aircraft which was built somewhere like France, Italy or Spain. It is obvious by the fact that only 2 airlines operated it, that it wasn't a "successful" program.

So guys and gals, let hear it. What type of aircraft is it?
 
wietse
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:02 pm


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Williams


Vickers Viscount

or:


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Photo © Pedro Aragão


Lockheed Electra

or:

...?

Wietse de Graaf
 
Guest

RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:05 pm

Not a Viscount. You can tell this by the angle of the stabiliser.

Wouldn't be an Electra either, because the Electra flew with more than 2 airlines. Also the engines on the Electra are very different to those in the photo.

So that discounts both of these types.
 
TG992
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 9:19 pm

An Ambassador?

******************
-
 
David L
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 9:42 pm

Boeing Stratocruiser? The engines and main gear look about right.

The only two airlines I know of who operated them were Pan Am and BOAC though I'm sure someone will correct me.
 
Guest

RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 9:46 pm

Not an Ambassador. It has 3 tail booms from memory.

Not a Stratocruiser. It was operated by more airlines than those 2, e.g. Northwest Orient.

I don't actually know the answer myself, but I think the answer will lie in that only 2 airlines ever operated it, and 1 of those only ever operated that aircraft.

It is going to be an obscure aircraft. I can feel it.
 
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lapper
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:06 pm

I think the steps leading up to the rear door are a bit of a red herring on this chaps. TAP's fleet only ever consisted of:
B.747
A340
L.1011
A310
B.707
B.727
A320
A321
A319
B.737
Caravelle
DC-7
L.1049
DC-6
C-54
DC-4
C-47
C-53

All of which can be discounted either becuase of the type/age or engine layout.
 
TomH
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:19 pm

Aviatsia,
Do you mean it has 4-blade props, or do you mean it hads 4 engines? This has apparently confused some of those replying.

It is likely a CASA twin, a radial engine type similar in appearance to a Convair 240. I think the Spanish Air Force operated them into the 1970s.
 
Guest

RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:20 pm

Lapper

It needn't be an aircraft operated by TAP. As the airport is in Lisbon, TAP would have handled the aircraft, and provided the stairs for the aircraft.
 
TomH
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:32 pm

I think it is a CASA C-207 Azor. First flight 29 Sep 55.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22CASA+Azor%22&sa=N&tab=wi


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Williams




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Günter Grondstein

 
garuda
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:40 pm

It's definitely 4-engines airplane, you can see the 2nd prop on the wing near the main gear door.

The single nose gear is also a good clue, hardly any 4-engines airplanes have a single nose gear. I only know the DC-4/6/7 who has it, but the DC's tail is different.

 
Guest

RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:45 pm

Tomh

I was thinking of the CASA C-207 also, but the line about it only ever being operated by 2 airlines knocked it out in my mind, as for as far as I know, the C-207 was only ever operated by the Spanish Armed Forces? Also, I did mean 4 props as in 4 engines.

Garuda

Agreed on that. For those who can't see the 2nd prop, I have circled it here:



Anyone know the names of some of the lesser known French aircraft manufacturers from that era?

[Edited 2003-01-28 14:51:57]
 
Going64
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 11:02 pm

The CAZA C-207 was a 2-engine prop. So we have to look further or the circled engine is something different.
 
David_itl
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 11:15 pm


If that circled bit indicates where the 2nd prop is, wouldn't that interfere with the fuselage i.e. crash-bang-wallop time?

Looking at this website page looking aircraft histories in the 1950s, one finds



which is a Saab Scandia, used by SAS and then by VASP and Aerovias Brazil.

David
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 11:25 pm

The aircraft in the original photo has a fairly high stabilizer, whereas the VASP above has a fairly low one....not the same aircraft.
 
Going64
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 11:28 pm

Perhaps the IL18 (Russian Aircraft) although this aircraft could carry approx. 75 passengers.
 
Skymonster
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 11:51 pm

Well, what have we got???


Definitely a four engined airliner (even without the inboard prop, the location of the main gear gives this away), conventional configuration, with a single nose wheel. Unusual horizontal stabliser configuration.

It definitely isn't: (1) a Casa Azor as this has two engines, (2) a Saab Scandia as this too has two engines, (3) an IL-18 as the horizontal stab is in the wrong place, (4) a Stratocruiser as these have double wheel nose gears, nor is it any of the TAP aircraft mentioned or a Viscount or Electra.

The TAP steps could well be a red herring. And so too could the "its only been operated by two airlines" lead. So, if for one moment we assume that the only two airlines thing is wrong, that leaves plenty more choices. It could be an aircraft which was operated by many airlines, or indeed it could just be a one-off which was being demonstrated to TAP.

I wondered whether it could be an Armstrong Whitworth AW.55 Apollo, but the engines aren't quite right...



Can't see anything French that obviously fits the bill, and however wide the net is cast, the configuration of the tail is very unusual.

So, still thinking...

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:39 am

I'm not so convinced that this is actually a four-engine aircraft.

If you look closely at the circled area in the photo, it looks like it's a shadow of the wing root where it blends into the fuselage. Also, had that dark area been a prop blade, there would be another two of them visible at 90 degrees up or down from it. This doesn't seem to be the case in the photo.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
GDB
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:08 am

I looked in the 1940's section of the site linked above, as I thought of a Handley Page Hermes, but the horizontal stabilizer position is wrong.
I also thought of some post war French designs, I pretty sure that at least one had a nose wheel, not the tailwheel aircraft pictured on the site.
I've done searches for aircraft in this catergory but no joy so far.
 
miller22
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RE: Canadair RJ Flight Question

Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:18 am

Definately not a 207. Stab is much too high. You're right with the Apollo, engines aren't right, and the main gear doors are attached to the strut. Remember that just because they are using stairs owned by TAP, doesn't mean its a TAP airplane. I noticed the caravelle-like tail and considered the S.N.C.A.S.E. SE-2010 'Armagnac'.



I could only find this one photo of the aircraft, which unfortunately is at an angle where the wing eclipses the horizontal stab. I have noticed, however, that the rudder is uninterupted from top to bottom along the trailing edge of the vertical stab, which would indicate a more forward horizontal stab. Also the engines match, as well as the double doors on the main gear. Also, if you look closely, you can see the strut wrap around both sides of the nosewheel. Armagnac first flew in 1949, and only 9 were built, which I believe were all operated by Air France. It is very possible that Air France would have had one of these aircraft in Brazil during the early 1950's.

I think you're looking at a S.N.C.A.S.E. SE-2010 'Armagnac'.
 
miller22
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RE: Canadair RJ Flight Question

Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:20 am

That was fun! Lets do another one!
 
avroarrow
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:22 am

Hmmm...I like a good mystery. Although I don't have any real suggestions at this point, I'll include my opinion about a few things. I would tend to think that it could be a 4 engine aircraft as the visible engine is quite far out on the wing and it is possible that the ramp in combination with the angle the photo was taken at obscures the other inboard prop blades. I would venture that it is likely a radial engine too based on the size of the cowling/nacelle. Also the wing seems to incorporate some sort of vortex generator on it, almost like a caravelle. No answers really, but maybe more observations will shake something loose for someone else.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Ed
Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
 
avroarrow
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:25 am

OK I took too long typing my last post I guess, boy do I feel silly now.
Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
 
miller22
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:27 am

Some further info on the Armagnac:

Carried approx. 160 people, which would explain the large number of people walking towards it. Also, it was made by the same company as the Caravelle. Good observations Avroarrow.
 
MD-90
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 5:16 am

Good work, Miller22. The argument for the Armagnac is pretty strong.
 
backfire
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 5:24 am

It's almost certainly the Armagnac. The aircraft was operated by SAGETA (which, I think, is the airline that had an all-Armagnac fleet) as well as Transports Aeriens Intercontinentaux, the predecessor to UTA.



[Edited 2003-01-28 21:30:03]
 
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lapper
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 5:27 am

Aviatsiya and Miller 22, the point about the stairs is exactly what I meant. SO, if only 2 airlines operated this bird, and AF were one of them, who was the other? (unless they were just the test aircraft?)

I couldn't find any other pictures on the net of this either.
 
Guest

RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:50 pm

Thanks guys for your answers. It seems it is indeed the SE.2010 Armagnac. It looks like it, and it fits in with the "2 airline" argument.

It is interesting to note that after looking up this aircraft on various websites, most information for the bird states that it has capacity for up to 160 people, although the most common configuration was for 84 passengers.

Out of 9 built, 2 have been lost in accidents

http://aviation-safety.net/database/type/552.shtml

The info I have found (unfortunately mostly in French) indicates that the SE.2010 was used on flights from Toulouse-Saigon, and maybe also did some flying for the French Air Force in Vietnam during the 50s.

Does anyone know if any examples of this bird survive in museums? I heard that one was on display at an airport, but am not sure which one (probably Toulouse?)

Thanks again for the answers.
 
aviasian
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:03 pm

What an wonderful exercise . . . although the subject is as strange to Asian-based enthusiast as a flying saucer from Mars, it was highly educational and interesting.

I would have given this discussion a 5-star rating . . . but could not find any guide on how to rate the discussion.

Congrats to all . . .

KC Sim
Bangkok
 
sccutler
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:04 pm

Easily the most entertaining thread in a very long time... thanks, Aviatsiya for starting it, and to all the participants for your effort and input.

Good fun!
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
timz
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One Aside:

Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:29 pm

AFAIK the Armagnac was the largest (i.e. highest MTOW) piston airliner ever to go into service. Any arguments?
 
je89_w
Crew
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:49 pm

Interesting! Thanks for posting the thread Scotty!

Jerrold
 
TomH
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:21 pm

Great topic and a lot of fun. When the location of the MLG was pointed out I knew I was wrong in thinking it might be a twin. You can even see the tapered end of the Air France fuselage stripe on the left side in the original photo. The full height rudder as seen in Miller22's photo looks a lot like the tail in the original photo. But in Backfire's photo it seems that the rudder doesn't extent as far down-or am I seeing the trim tab?

Somewhere I have a book on French postwar transports, of which there were many. I'll try to look up the weights on this old bird. Funny that we have a capacity stated variously as 84 and 160. I don't get that.
 
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lapper
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:21 pm

On the tail of Backfires picture, you can also see the Air France "logo", the Winged Seahorse. If you have a look at the Air France corporate page, http://www.airfrance.com/double6/home.nsf/(lookuppublishedweb)/Y1-PublishedmarketY1en?Opendocument, click on the winged horse and have a look at the pictures 1946-1959, there is one of Max Hymans climbing the steps up to an Armagnac. No reproduction allowed though.
 
TomH
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:56 am

According to my copy of Air-Britian's "French Post-War Transport Aircraft" the
SE-2010 Armagnac was first flown at Toulouse-Blagnac on 2 Apr 1949. As the data below indicate, it was a large aircraft.

Span:49m
Length:40m
Height:14m
Empty wt:47,131 kg
Max wt: 77,000 kg
Payload: 7,700 kg
Engines: Pratt & Whitney R-4360 2,687 HP dry, 3,550 HP with water injection
Speed max: 580 km/hr
Speed cruise: 450 km/hr
Range: 5,120 km
Crew 5 to 15
Pax: 91 to 104

Of 9 Armagnacs built, 6 (c/n 2,3,4,5,7,8) are listed as scrapped. c/n 9 was built but not rolled out, disposition not indicated. c/n 1 was used as a test bed until 1968, disposition not indicated. c/n 6 was w.o. at Orly in 1957, but disposition not indicated

 
GDB
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:08 am

Outstanding topic, and well done to those who tracked down the aircraft.
 
RayPettit
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RE: Perplexing. What Type Of Aircraft Is This?

Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:33 am

Aviatsiya et al,

Great thread - I came across a slide of F-BAVI taken by someone else at Bordeaux a couple of years ago which prompted me to research more as it was apparently taken there in September 1968, but 'the book' says it was scrapped there in 1964. The picture shows it as complete but on this occasion it was surrounded by those small metal barriers.

It seems that it was the last survivor, having been ferried to Bordeaux in 1959.

Now, who has a mystery postcard they can post to the forum featuring some of those funny Italian airliners?

Ray

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