Chi-town
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Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:16 am

I know that Southwest has hubs at Dallas-Love and Chicago-Midway. Do they have any others??

Thanks
Steve

PS...Which is their biggest hub?

Sorry! PPS...Any new cities that Southwest will be serving soon??
 
N766UA
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:21 am

Technically, Southwest doesn't have any hubs.
This Website Censors Me
 
travelin man
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:21 am

Actually, WN does not operate hubs. They operate a point-to-point network, with some airports having significant amounts of service, such as PHX, LAS, LUV, and LAX.
 
CoAir@IAH
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:23 am

Sure, sure...blow off Houston like that.

Seriously, though, where does Houston rank on WN's daily flight movements?

 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:24 am

WN is more of a 'Point-to-Point' carrier than one with a traditional 'Hub and spoke' system. WN Cities with large operations include HOU, LAS, PHX, and BWI.

I'm sure OPNLguy could provide copious insight on this thread.

"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:32 am

From Southwest's site

PHX 181 daily departures
LAS 171
BWI 144
HOU 141
MDW 130
DAL 130
OAK 123
LAX 118
BNA 86
SAN 80
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:41 am

Guess you might say WN has rolling hubs....they don't schedule in banks but connections are available at many points throughout the US.
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
atcboy73
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:53 am

Im hoping you will be able to add MCI to that list of top ten airports soon. They are taking over 6 or so gates and I believe they will have a total of 13. Could this translate into 130 flights a day for MCI.

At 130 flights a day could it be called an important station (hub) in the SW system?
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:57 am

What about TPA and MCO? They have a ton of Southwest at both of these airports
 
atcboy73
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:03 am

WOW


BWI already up to 144!
 
flyCMH
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:06 am

Southwest also has significant operations in STL.
 
goingboeing
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:16 am

MCI most likely will grow. They already route several connections thru here. Right now, it's just barely off their top ten cities.
 
727LOVER
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:24 am

No, TPA & MCO top pout at around 60
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:31 am

Dont forget about MSY.... aside from WN's previous 8 gates, they've just purchased 5 from CO and plan to take 8 from NW & US as soon as they can be facilitated in the west terminal! As that happens, MSY will rival PHX for most WN gates of any airport  Sad
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atcboy73
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:54 am

How many gates do they have at PHX?
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:00 am

From Southwest's site

PHX 21 (# of gates per WN station)
LAS 19
BWI 21
HOU 15
MDW 14
DAL 14
OAK 13
LAX 12
BNA 10
SAN 9
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:01 pm

here is the whole list link, this should answer all your questions.

From Southwest.com
[url]http://www.southwest.com/about_swa/press/factsheet.html[/url]

City/............Daily Deps/....#ofGates/..NonstopCities/ Year established
Phoenix ..................181....... 21....... 38........ 1982
Las Vegas ..............171...... 19........ 42........ 1982
Baltimore/Wash....... 144...... 21 ........34 ........1993
Houston Hobby ........141...... 15........ 25........ 1971
Chicago Midway........ 130..... 14........ 29........ 1985
Dallas (Love)............130....... 14....... 13........ 1971
Oakland................... 123..... 13....... 19........ 1989
Los Angeles (LAX).... 118...... 12....... 19......... 1982
Nashville ................86........ 10....... 28......... 1986
San Diego................ 80....... 9......... 14 ......1982

oh post edit: THis is as of December 5, 2002

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Lt-AWACS, Yankee Air Pirate




[Edited 2003-01-29 05:03:51]
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
futureatp
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:05 pm

For those with questions or comments about southwest service at mci. mci used to be in the top ten. Southwest actually pulled back service a little or just stopped expanding while expanding else where. I think due to the fact they started transcon or at least longer segments with the-700. But with vanguard gone, and what appeared to me was reworking security at the southwest gates at mci to make connecting thier easier, I look for a southwest expansion at mci.

I was in terminal B 2 weeks ago at mci flying on delta. The newly redone terminal interior looks very impresive to me.

john
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:39 pm

I've known that PHX has been the busiest WN city almost from the start but BWI and LAS come as a bit of a surprise. I truly would have thought that HOU was still a close second. Oh well, I no longer have the time or desire to read timetables monthly. Do hard copies even exist anymore?
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:57 pm

They have printed sched.s at the ticket counters for SWA. They come out quarterly. You can get on a mailing list for them also or could in teh past.

Maybe SWA will get more gates at HOU when the construction is finished???

I know looking at some the earlier lists, like the one I posted above HOU was third for a while.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Lt-AWACS, Yankee Air Pirate
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
AsianaAirlines
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:28 pm

I heard that in 5 years from now, Baltimore will be Southwest's largest city with the most daily departures. Southwest is for sure conquering BWI. I remember a couple of years back, they only had 2 or 3 gates!
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:38 pm

Maybe SWA will get more gates at HOU when the construction is finished???

Yes, they will. I keep hearing that their new concourse, which was originally supposed to have been completed in October 2002, should be opening in a few weeks. When Southwest moves over they will occupy all 24 gates.

LoneStarMike

 
elwood64151
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:41 pm

WN in MCI has 8 gates. If they are adding six, as previously stated, then it will bring them up to 14, which will be one of their largest (by gates). Currently, most WN flights at MCI are scheduled in banks of 4-8 aircraft, and they total at (last count I had) 78 flights per day.

In reality, all WN cities are hubs. Some are far more important, but others are not. The fact is, you can end up making a connection ANYWHERE on the WN system. So to say that WN is point-to-point is true, but in fact it is a "multi-mini-hub system". No small stations, just a bunch of medium-sized ones with a few large ones in strategic locations.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:49 pm

Southwest's BWI hub is a juggernaut that's going to grow a *lot* more in the next five years, as noted. A week or two ago LoneStarMike posted an article from a major WN-market newspaper about their growth strategy at BWI. BWI is building a 26-gate expansion for WN.

A big reason that BWI is slated to grow so much, is that there isn't another airport so perfectly suited to WN on the East Coast. It's located in a huge O & D market; it's excellently located for north-south and some east-west connections in a densely populated part of the USA; and finally, it's a big and underserved airport in a huge market.

Also not to be forgotten: the State of Maryland runs BWI, and has sunk big bucks to expand it for WN (US squatted for years on old Piedmont gates to thwart WN; MD gave them the finger and expanded WN's concourse). BWI also has far fewer NIMBY problems because of being state-operated.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
ont 737
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:31 pm

With the new addition at BWI WN's gates will double in number. Now if BWI could just turn 15L/33R into a real runway so they could handle independant landings.....(its only 5,000x100 now)  Big thumbs up
 
gigneil
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:34 pm

US used to have some decent service to BWI, and then of course there was the Metrojet failure.

I actually flew Metrojet once or twice, when it had a later and more preferable departure back from wherever I had flown.

N
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:49 pm

I believe that PHX is the closest thing on the US West Coast for a WN hub because many WN passengers transit through that airport. I remember the old terminal WN used to be located in and that was a very crowded and small place; I'm glad WN has moved to a much more spacious terminal at PHX.

As for LAS, I believe WN has a massive amount of O&D traffic--they're probably the #1 airline out of LAS due to the highly successful Southwest Vacations packages sold by a WN subsidiary. If I were to poll vacationers at most resorts in Las Vegas who flew into the city by air, my guess is that a large fraction of them used a Southwest Vacations package.
 
cloudy
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:22 pm

On the definition of a "hub"

It used to be said that for an airport to be a hub, it had to have banked flights. With banked flights, an Airline bring a large number of aircraft in and out at once with a view to helping people make connections from any city to any city in their network. American pioneered this concept in DWF, I believe.

Now, this definition is no longer holds water. Airlines are figuring out that above a certain number of flights, you don't need to jam flights into banks to help people connect. You can spread out the takeoffs and landings over the day. Connections take longer, but aircraft and staff spend less time on the ground waiting. This makes for more efficient use of resources. And people miss fewer connections because there is typically more time to get to them. Also, this system adds puts less strain on ATC and runway capacity - which can be important in places like Chicago Ohare (ORD). This new practice is called "depeaking". Ironically, "depeaking" is another invention of American Airlines.

It used to be said that WN does not have hubs because it has no stations where flights are deliberately set up in banks. But then again, with depeaking, ORD and other obvious hubs will not have banks either. BWI, PHX, MDW etc are hubs in all but name.

It is true that WN still does mostly point to point service - but has not stopped them from concentrating of traffic at "hubs". Its just that allot of people want to fly into and out of the same places. As has been pointed out, the growth of LAS and even BWI is very much driven by point-to-point traffic since these are very large markets. WN's network has always been expanded with point-to-point travel as the first priority - the connecting traffic that comes as a byproduct of such a huge national network is just a bonus.
 
lgbguy
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:32 am

Hey don't forget us here at SNA (Orange County), we may be small 26 flights a day, but we make lots and lots of $$$$$$$$$ for the company.

lgbguy
SNA Ops
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:28 am

Delta and Braniff had hubs in ATL and DFW respectively long before AA had a hub anywhere.
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
nicksair
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:48 am

WN's Ops At SAN Are Now Up To 90 Flights A Day And 10 Gates All In The Eastern Part Of Terminal 1
Regards,
Nick
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FlyingTexan
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:53 am

In reality, all WN cities are hubs. Some are far more important, but others are not. The fact is, you can end up making a connection ANYWHERE on the WN system.

Elwood64151, make at least one exception - Houston's IAH.

IAH is one of Herb's smaller stations - if not the smallest station - SIX flights Monday thru Friday, THREE on Saturday, and FIVE on Sunday - all to Dallas Love. Due to Wright Amendment, this makes travel on SWA difficult from IAH to places beyond Texas, bordering states, Alabama, and Mississippi.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
desertjets
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:06 am

At some point a thrid south concourse for Terminal 4 at PHX will be built, primarily for Southwest. This would net them ten additional gates, which would either allow for a sizeable expansion or for them to give up their gates on the International A concourse... which would likely see a lot more AWex CRJs. Prior to the opening of terminal 4 PHX was not a major Southwest station... it was the major network expansion around 89/90 that required the construction of the 2 C concourses on the south side of the terminal... originally only 3 of the planned 8 concourses were going to be built.

Since Southwest had removed 3-stop connects from the schedule a lot of the smaller stations... those with less than 15 or so flights, you have a hard time getting anywhere. Tucson was a good example, with service only to LAS, LAX, SAN, and ABQ... the only connecting opportunities were at LAS and some through ABQ going to MCI or MDW.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
fpdonald
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:52 am

FA Crew domiciles are at OAK, PHX, DAL, HOU, MDW, BWI and MCO so it could be argued that those are the hubs. LAS is still rumored, but doesn't look likely this year.
 
skymileman
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:55 am

I don't know if you could call it a hub, but they have quite a few gates at slc.

-LMP
 
elwood64151
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:10 am

Ozark D9S:

You're correct, but AA was the first to really recognize the hub-and-spoke system for what it was and schedule it's flights to take advantage of it. DL and Brannif just sort of happened by accident, though I'm sure they had some concept of connecting passengers in mind.

Flying Texan:

I doubt you'll see IAH stay a small station, unless WN doesn't want it competing with HOU. That's a definite possibility. But that also doesn't mean that travel to/from Houston on WN is difficult. You just have to fly out of a different airport.

And WN does schedule some stations in banks. MCI is definetely a bank-based station. 4 to 8 planes at a time, 75-plus flights a day.

Oh, and when banks are more spread out, it's called a rolling hub or rolling bank. Vanguard *sniff* got pretty good at that, with flights coming in between 8:30 am and leaving between 9:00 and 9:15 am, then another bank starting at 9:00 am and leaving at 10:00-10:15 am, effectively mixing two banks and "rolling" them into one large bank, so that up to twelve flights could depart in a 1 1/2 hour period out of only six gates.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
ScottB
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:36 am

Actually, it could easily be argued that American's decision to depeak its hubs at ORD and DFW was driven by Southwest's success in operating its point-to-point system where connections are merely a by-product of larger-scale operations at certain airports. Because Southwest's decision-making has been motivated by the desire to optimize the use of resources, rather than optimizing network connectivity, they generally have been able to operate far more cost-effectively than traditional hub-and-spoke carriers.

I suppose it all depends on how one wants to define a hub. After all, WN's operation at PHX is larger than NWA's at MEM; Delta's hubs at SLC, DFW, and CVG, CO's CLE hub, US's PIT hub and UA's IAD hub all have fewer daily mainline departures than WN has at PHX. But in the traditional sense, WN operates no hubs. Their choice of routes and scheduling is geared towards point-to-point traffic and efficient use of equipment, not towards maximum network connectivity.

Most of the airports on the "edge" of WN's system see no connecting traffic; for example, MHT, PVD, ISP (with the end of ISP-PVD), ALB, BUF, BDL, FLL, CRP, HRL, TUS, IAH, etc. But with the way the system is set up, it's possible to connect in places like BHM, JAX, BOI, OMA, or even MAF.

As an aside, I don't believe SWA Vacations is part of Southwest Airlines, but rather is operated by Mark Travel Corporation. It's not clear to me whether Southwest is licensing its name or if it actually owns the business and has contracted with Mark Travel to operate it.
 
jsnww81
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:36 am

It might have been mentioned before, but Southwest has definitely built up its operation at BNA since American scaled back (and scaled back again.) First they moved from the A Concourse over to former American gates on Concourse C. Now they've got quite a few gates and flights to both coasts.

BNA isn't a Southwest "hub" or "transfer point" (at least not in the same league as HOU, PHX or BWI) but it's a respectable operation.

On a side note, Southwest has maintained for years that they'll be beefing up MDW flights considerably as soon as the new terminal opens. The first phase should be opening in a few months, and full completion will come next year. When it's done Southwest will have 19 gates there, making it one of the largest WN stations in the country.
 
ont 737
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:33 pm

Lgbguy,
WN has definatly been becoming a big contender in SNA lately. They did a great job in picking up open slots after the 9/11 cutbacks. I remember it was not long ago when you guys only flew to SJC and OAK with very limited connections elsewhere. Now you have added SMF, LAS and PHX. We (HP) only have 18 dailies now, (3 of 'em CRJs) Back in the day we flew to SEA, RNO, SMF, and EWR and now its just LAS and PHX. Its funny how 24 flights for a city in small for WN. We have 15 daily *mainline* flights and we are only lower than LAS and PHX. We even beat out our "hub" in CMH and LAX. I would truely be shocked if we got a CMH flight, the LAX-CMH is doing bad enough for the both of us. And yes, SNA does bring in the $$$$$ for the airlines.
 
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STT757
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:39 pm

I've also read that WN has big plans for BWI, making it their biggest hub/station within the next few years.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2802
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Fri Jan 31, 2003 12:27 am

I wonder which of the 59 airports Southwest serves could be considered "fortress cities", keeping in mind that the FAA defines a fortress hub as an airport where one airline has more than 50% of the market.

Here in AUS, although Southwest is the dominant carrier, it only had 36% of the market in 2002, so AUS is not a fortress city.

At DAL, on the other hand, I believe Southwest controls a little over 90% of the market,so DAL would be a fortress city. I would imagine Southwest has more than 50% of the market in HOU, and I think I recently read that Southwest controls just over half the market at SMF, so that could count.

Does anyone know other cities where Southwest controls more than 50% of the market?

LoneStarMike

 
FATFlyer
Posts: 4437
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:28 am

This file gives the 2001 market share for all WN airports.
http://www.spiritmag.com/pdfs/enplane.pdf

The airports where WN had over 50% of the enplanements in 2001 were:

Dallas (DAL) 98%
Harlingen (HRL) 90%
Houston-Hobby (HOU) 89%
Chicago-Midway (MID) 84%
Midland/Odessa (MAF) 84%
Islip (ISP) 78%
Lubbock (LBB) 78%
Amarillo (AMA) 74%
Burbank (BUR) 70%
Corpus Christi (CRP) 62%
Oakland (OAK) 68%
El Paso (ELP) 59%
Nashville (BNA) 56%
Albuquerque (ABQ) 55%
Sacramento (SMF) 54%
Ontario (ONT) 54%
Reno (RNO) 51%


"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
jjbiv
Posts: 1203
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:52 am

That MDW number looks very high -- either that, or things have changed rapidly since 2001 ended. ATA now leads MDW by quite a margin.

joe
 
LoneStarMike
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Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: Southwest Hubs

Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:29 am

Thanks for the statistics, FATFlyer, although I'd have to agree with Jjblv that the MDW figure has changed since 2001. I know Southwest's market share in OAK has dropped since then, too. I read an article that says Southwest has 58% of the market there now, which is understandable considering both jetBlue and Aloha have come in since then.

I also read an article that gave the statistics for BWI just for the month of October, and doing the math it looked like in Oct. 2002 Southwest had 46% of the market and with lots of new flights coming online soon, BWI isn't that far away from becoming a fortress city.

I think it's pretty impressive that Southwest controls more than half the market at 17 stations or 29% of all cities it serves (16 if we don't count MDW). I can't think of any other airline that could make that claim. I also note that of the 10 desinations Southwest serves in Texas, 8 are fortress cities; only AUS and SAT are not.

LoneStarMike

 
LV
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RE: Southwest Hubs

Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:36 am

Speaking of BNA and WN building up at old hubs....any expansion plans for RDU?
 
ont 737
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Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2001 10:19 am

RE: Southwest Hubs

Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:39 am

According to the 2003 Aviation and Aerospace Almanac......
-ABQ
1.WN 52.5%
2.DL 8.5%
-AUS
1.WN 36.6%
2.AA 23.7%
-MDW
1.WN 44.4%
2.ATA 33%
-BWI
1.WN 39.4%
2.US 21.3%
-CLE
1.CO (and COEx) 72%
2.WN 10.6
-CMH
1.DL 17%
2.WN 13.1%
-DAL
1.WN 93%
2.COEx 3.2%
-DTW
1.NW 68.6%
4.WN 3.2%
-FLL
1.DL 25.1%
3.13.1%
-HOU
1.WN 85.3
2.DL 3.9%
-BDL
1.DL 24.1%
4.WN12%
-IAH
1.CO (and COEx) 83%
7. WN 0.71%
-MCI
1.WN 31%
2.DL 9%
-LAS
1.WN 33.9%
2.HP 17.3%
-LAX
1.UA 22%
3.WN 11.1%
-BNA
1.WN 51%
2.DL 10.6%
-MSY
1.WN 30.9%
2.DL 16.5%
-OAK
1.WN 65.22%
2. UA 9.3%
-ONT
1.WN 51.5%
2.UA 9.5%
-SNA
1.AA 20.2%
3.WN 14.4%
-MCO
1.DL 25.2%
3.WN 12.3%
-PVD
1.WN 33%
2.US 24%
-PHX
1.HP 42.2%
2.WN 27.3%
-RNO
1.WN 49.6%
2 AA 13%
-RDU
1.Midway (RIP) 24.7%
2.WN 12%
-PDX
1.AS 21%
3.WN 15%
-SMF
1.WN 50.6%
2.UA 14.4%
-SLC
1.DL 61%
2.WN 11.8%
-SJC
1.WN 32%
2.AA 31%
-SAT
1. WN 35.9%
2.DL 15.4%
-SAN
1.WN 33%
2.UA 13%
-SEA
1.AS 29.8%
5.WN 8.6%
-STL
1.AA 70%
2.WN 12.6%
-TPA
1.DL 20.6%
2.WN 19.2%
-PBI
1.DL 34.8%
4.WN 8.6%

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