SAA201
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Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:10 pm

Hi all,

I recall reading some time back that Air Canada has postponed delivery of their A340-500's that were to have been delivered early this year. Can anyone confirm the new delivery dates for the aircraft now?

Also, what was the total amount of A345's ordered by AC and what routes will they be used on? What cabin config?

Many thanks
 
gigneil
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:44 pm

They ordered 2.

Who knows when they'll get them.

N
 
RP TPA
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Jan 31, 2003 9:05 pm

AC's 2 A340-500,s should be delivered to them around April or May of this year. They were supposed to have been here late last year, but I believe due to a production delay at Airbus they were held up for a few months. AC will use them on either the YYZ-HKG or YVR-SYD route.

The 3 A340-600's were postponed until sometime in 2004. That was AC's choice, due to the poor airline environment.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 12:16 am

I heard the A340-500's would be used to Korea (I think?). The Sydney flight was to use A340-300's and stopping in Hawaii, if I'm not mistaken. I could be way off, of course.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 12:45 am

The likely routes are YYZ-HKG and/or YVR-SYD.

The proposed YYZ-SEL route would use the 343.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 2:13 am

LOL Nuno!!

Airbus not Air Canada have delayed the -500's there are having some production/certification problems...AC doesnt mind cuz they can't afford them anyway  Smile They were pushed from October 2002 to March 2003, and now it looks more like May or June 2003...the -600 should still be around in 2004...that is if Air Canada still is  Big grin
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 2:41 am

Just saying what I heard, don't know if there's truth to it. Hong Kong makes more sense as it is further and arguably a more important route. I doubt Sydney will see the A345 though.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 3:07 am

Ya, I put my money on YYZ-HKG.

Of course, the 345 will be DELIVERED to YUL no doubt.  Yeah sure

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
gigneil
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 6:06 am

They filed for a variety of routes for it. YVR-SYD was one of them, as was YVR-HKG.

N
 
gmonney
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 6:15 am

And if i can arrange it, when they opperate a revenue flight from YUL-YYZ, I want to be on it!!

I will do some more research soon,

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 7:42 am

Neil,

DONT COMPLAIN !  Big thumbs up

It will be special to know that the Montreal will be the last airport to see the A340-500 after the delivery flight ..
 
Samurai 777
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 10:20 am

YYZ-HKG and YVR-SYD are apparently the top two contender. YYZ-HKG might be picked first, given that this is a business route. However, YCR-SYD might have a pretty goood chance, too, because then you can bypass HNL and those %@^%$&* security measures where you have to deplane, claim your baggage, go thru US Customs, then check your bags, then go through security, and finally back on the plane!
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 10:43 am

Ahem Slawko....


Toronto (YYZ) - Hong Kong (HKG) v.v.

AC 11 345 1234567 29MAR03 24OCT03 YYZ 10:15 HKG 14:10+1

AC 6 345 1234567 30MAR03 25OCT03 HKG 15:55 YYZ

Vancouver (YVR) - Honolulu (HNL) - Sydney (SYD) v.v.

AC 33 76C 1234567 28MAR03 23OCT03 YVR 19:00 HNL 21:55
HNL 00:30+1 SYD 07:10+2
AC 49 345 1234567 28MAR03 23OCT03 YVR 22:00 SYD 06:40+2


AC 34 76C 1234567 30MAR03 25OCT03 SYD 09:30 HNL 23:20-1 HNL 01:25+1 YVR 10:00
AC 50 345 1234567 30MAR03 25OCT03 SYD 12:00 YVR


There ya goes...

Grégoire
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 10:48 am

Greg where is that info from...ACA website has no such flights on the schedule, and I have read from a number of different places including YYZnews that they are delayed...Air Canada is still the launch customer, but Airbus is pushing back the delivery to early summer....
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
gigneil
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 11:26 am

http://www.iata.org.

Check the schedules filed at the conference for Air Canada.

The A345 is being pushed back for two reasons. #1 is either AC's or Airbus' decision to change the interior substantially from what it was, requiring additional certification apparently.

#2 of course is the insufficiency of the center main landing gear, as discovered on the 346. They're gonna get all the A345s repaired before the customer gets them, which is good policy.

N
 
Samurai 777
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 11:52 am

I cannot find anything about skeds filed for Air Canada in iata.org.
Perhaps it might help for you to be little more specific?
 
gigneil
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 12:13 pm

Sorry.

It was at http://www.iata.org/sked/schedules.asp

But they've disabled it to "enhance security".

You can request AC's draft schedule from sked@iata.org.

N
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 3:19 pm

A fleet of just 2 345's could not operate daily YYZ-HKG and YVR-SYD. It would have to be one or the other, or perhaps each route 3x/week with some connecting YVR-YYZ flights to rotate this massive fleet of 2 aircraft.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
gigneil
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 3:33 pm

They will obviously only choose one or the other but not both.

They only filed for both so they could pick at a later date.

A fleet of 2 can barely operate YYZ-HKG. It can be done, but will cause very high utilization of the fleet. Which is fine, I s'pose.

N
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 3:56 pm

Guys,

Dont put too much faith in the IATA draft..

Apparently for each sked, at least the majority of the proposals are slot blockers...

Mark
 
Red Panda
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 5:22 pm

YYZ-HKG is not a business route. There are many expirators of Hong Kong in Toronto; however, very few of them are big business people compared to those travelling b/n NY and HK, and YVR and HK. Many pax travelling b/n HKG-YYZ are for personal reasons like visiting relatives, families and friends. There are relatively few of them travelling for business reasons. Moreover, the profit margin for long haul flights like YYZ-HKG and EWR-HKG (e.g. CO 98/99) are thin especially if there is no sufficient business class travellers.

r panda
 
A340-Fan
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 01, 2003 10:01 pm

Didn' t AC decided to use the A340-600 on the YYZ-HKG, YYZ-NRT, YVR-HKG and YVR-NRT trips?
And on flights from Canada to LHR and FRA as a Jumbo replacement?

Then the two -500 could be used exclusivly for the YVR-SYD flight.
 
GuyBetsy1
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sun Feb 02, 2003 5:52 pm

AC specifically bought the A340-500s to operate YYZ-HKG-YYZ year round, nonstop, with full passenger and cargo payload. HKG yields higher than SYD in terms of revenue and with such a service, AC would beat CX over their 1 stop to/from HKG flight.
 
rindt
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:13 pm

Possibly true, but if AC did YVR-SYD-YVR, they wouldn't face any competition on the route, like they would on YYZ-HKG-YYZ... it's gonna be a close call, as both routes have their pros and cons.

-Rob

What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
ramprat
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:32 am

Well, did some browsing while i was ar work today and i found the inintial route for the 345's.

YYZ-NRT Flt 001
NRT-YYZ Flt 002

The earliest i can find them flying that route is June 1st, and all summer long by the looks of it. Looks like delivery will be sometime in May. Just thought I would let you know.
 
ramprat
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:35 am

Sorry for the spelling in the last post.

Also thought i would tell you that the comp shows 42J seats and 225Y seats.

 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:47 am

Looks like the AC website also indicates the 345 operating YYZ-NRT...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
gigneil
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Feb 14, 2003 6:19 am

I'm sure its for the warm up period.

N
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Feb 14, 2003 6:26 am

Sorry but what is Warm up period????
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
gigneil
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Feb 14, 2003 6:28 am

Time for the airline to familiarize themselves with the airplane.

For example, CX flew their A340-500s HKG-TPE, and now HKG-LAX for some time. SAA is flying their A346s JNB-CPT to get used to the plane.

As such, AC will probably fly them to NRT before they just throw it on the HKG route.

N
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Feb 14, 2003 6:48 am

You are referring to Line Indoctrination or Line Indoc as it is known, where crew are able to train on the new aircraft and become certified to fly it, and the company/dispatch can become familiar with the plane on existing routes, and I would agee however operating an entire summer season is going beyond Line Indoc...Could be that they will not be starting YYZ-HKG this year given their current situation, and will instead use the aircraft on existing routes, freeing up some 343's to replace other aircraft (744's) or expand other routes...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Samurai 777
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Feb 14, 2003 8:32 am

"Also thought i would tell you that the comp shows 42J seats and 225Y seats."

The seating arrangement sounds closer to that of the A330-300 (44J/228Y), rather than the 343 (32J/252Y) AC already has in its fleet. Interesting. Is there a geater demand for Executive First seating, or is it just that the 345 is able to put in more Executive First seats than the 343?

"Looks like the AC website also indicates the 345 operating YYZ-NRT..."

Slawko, are you sure that's the case? I've checked out AC's timetables for the YYZ-NRT route, and even in the summer it still lists the 343 as the equipment used.
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Feb 14, 2003 8:40 am

I checked today on their site for YYZ-NRT on June 1st and its a 345
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Samurai 777
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:36 am

Slawko, that does depend on which timetable you're using. So, I stand corrected, but only on the online booking section. It does say that the 345 is the equipment of choice, but the other timetable says otherwise! This will likely be corrected soon, I hope.
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:19 am

Guys,

I have this funny feeling. I think AC is going to call it quits for now for the A340- 500, for HKG, SYD and quite a few more. I'm getting bad vibes throughout the airport these days. This spring will be more of a question of staying alive. Cash is running out and the unions are NOT budging. We're down to 4% of owned planes. Leases are extremely expensive, so is insurance and fuel. Expect a big announcement a few days after war starts in Iraq. If you don't believe me, fine, but you heard it here first.

Shits and giggles,

Grégoire
 
gigneil
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:33 am

Cessna-

I don't believe Air Canada is leasing the A340-500s... and they can't quite cancel them now.

N
 
CRJ 900
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:33 pm

If those fools in YUL take delivery of ANY new aircraft when they are wanting us to take concessions there will be a war. AC doesn't need A345s or any other airplanes till they get their finances in order.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:01 pm

At this late stage in the contract cycle, AC probably has no choice but to take the 345's. Given that, they should put them on new routes to maximize their range potential such as YYZ-HKG, so that SOME incremental revenue is possible. Simply replacing the 343 on YYZ-NRT will only make that route less profitable.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
gigneil
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:00 pm

Heh. Its always about war.

N
 
SAA201
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:39 am

Just a rumour, don't know how much truth goes with it: Apparently SAA may be considering taking over the Air Canada A340-500's. Like I said, just a rumour, but lets wait to see what happens!!
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 15, 2003 1:05 am

Sure its not the -600's that SAA will/might pick up??? Thats the rumour I heard...

All AC can hope for now is that Airbus finds something else wrong with the 345's and delays them even more..
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
9v-svc
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 15, 2003 1:13 am

IF the rumours are true , which SA's routes requires the range of the A345 ?


Charles
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
jbangert
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:25 am

I am not sure the A346 could fly Johannesburg-New York non-stop. The A345 could do it for SAA.
 
jbangert
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:30 am

Talking about by-passing the troubles of a stop in Honolulu from Vancouver to Sydney, I wonder whether AC may be interested in launching a non-stop connection from Toronto to Sydney. I believe the A345 could probably make it, although it would be close to its maximum range.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:47 am

I dont believe there is enough demand for YYZ- or YVR-SYD nonstops. The HNL stop enabled consolidation of flights from YYZ and YVR to feed the HNL-SYD flight. Also, AC had 5th freedoms on the HNL-SYD route.

Regardless, the SYD routes for AC are low yielding.....not the best use of a high cost 345. Indeed, AC does not have a high yielding route that could pay for the 345 and utilize its range.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
gigneil
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:12 am

The A345 could definitely fly nonstop JFK-JNB and ATL-JNB as well... but I think those are very high volume routes for them. On their new plan they're still intending to fly a 744 on the route. I wonder if the A345 would have sufficient capacity.

N
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:21 am

SAA seems committed to the 346 and the new 343E. I haven't heard any mention of their interest in the 345. On the other hand, their short term lease of 2 332's wasn't envisioned either.

As the lead customer for the 345, AC probably has a preferential lease rate anyway, regardless of whether they need the aircraft or not.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
gigneil
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:41 am

AC isn't leasing the aircraft, I don't believe. They're buying them. So they could easily just sell them off.

N
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:57 am

Which also means they could just sell them and lease them back.....
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
SAA201
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RE: Air Canada A340-500's

Sat Feb 15, 2003 7:21 am

SAA has been talking about starting services to Beijing and Japan. The A345's could be just the ticket for this. They may well also be used to boost frequencies to the US, offering a non-stop westbound routing.

The AC A345 two class config of 42+225 compares with SAA's config of 48+291 on their A346's. Perhaps AC is keen on leasing/sub-leasing their aircraft to SAA as an interim measure for a while?

In a recent newspaper article, the SAA CEO stated that SAA is considering a follow up order of up to 9 additional Airbus aircarft (4x A380, 5x A345/A346)

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