Boeing Rejects 717-300 For AirTran; Pushing 737NG

Boeing4ever · Sun Feb 02, 2003 4:56 am

Okay Boeing4ever- go down to your Chevy dealer, tell them you want a Corvette, and allow the to smack some sense into you and tell you that you should buy a Cavalier instead.

See there you go again. What AirTran is asking is to develop a new airplane. Boeing isn't telling AirTran not to buy the 717-200 in favor of a 737-700.

A better, smarter comparison would be me going to my Chevy dealer, demanding that they combine a Corvette with and SUV and give it some cool racing stripes at a cost of millions to GM, and whining when they tell me that it would cost them too much. Or, assume Chevy does build this car, spends millions marketing it, and watches in disbelief as I am the only one to drive one off the lot.

As usual, you are missing the point entirely.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers

Guest · Sun Feb 02, 2003 5:27 am

B4e: the tiny little flaw you forgot in your car analogy is that GM sells as many cars in a day as Boeing has sold commercial jets up til now.

From what I have heard in two different sources, Lufthansa approached Boeing about the 717-300, and BA turned them away.

Dash8King · Sun Feb 02, 2003 5:31 am

Okay Boeing4ever- go down to your Chevy dealer, tell them you want a Corvette, and allow the to smack some sense into you and tell you that you should buy a Cavalier instead.

Either way Chevrolet is going to make money although they would be telling to buy the Corvette and not the Cavalier.

A better, smarter comparison would be me going to my Chevy dealer, demanding that they combine a Corvette with and SUV and give it some cool racing stripes at a cost of millions to GM, and whining when they tell me that it would cost them too much. Or, assume Chevy does build this car, spends millions marketing it, and watches in disbelief as I am the only one to drive one off the lot.

Good response B4e, see both Chevy and Boeing are their to make money that is the point of business if they didn't care about that then why don't they become a charitable airplane company that gives airplanes away for free to troubled companies?

goingboeing · Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:12 am

The jurys' still out on how much Boeing is going to have to eat from the bankrupt US and UAL, and potentially AA. They didn't "give" them those aircraft, but I am sure that they will be settled with pennies on the dollar, so they might as well have given them the planes.

gigneil · Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:15 am

The episode where Homer bankrupts his brother comes to mind...

However, I'm sure Boeing sold people this airplane as an airplane with a future.

Its natural that they should expect people to want something out of that.

N3

travatl · Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:26 am

Ya know...why is everybody so pissed off at AirTran for "talking" to Boeing about a 717-300. It was just that.....talking. There were no DEMANDS made by AirTran for a new airplane. Just two companies getting together to discuss their future. AirTran doesn't really want to wait for the development and production of a new aircraft, and Leonard stated in the webcast four days ago he was very comfortable with the idea of operating two different aircraft types, since both fleets will be large. Remember AirTran was posting a profit when it was operating THREE different aircraft - 737/717/DC9 - so I'm certain we can handle two large fleets of highly fuel efficient, low maintenance cost, young airplanes.

And Boeing4ever - you are an absolute jackass for your comments ("heads beaten in"?......nice) - but that's what happens when the teenaged-armchair-airline-CEOs toss their ridiculous two cents into the ring, with little or no fact or research behind them.

AirTran understands the low demand for the 717, they understand the ZERO demand for a stretched version at this time, and realized going into this that feasibility of the new program was dim at best. But hey, it never hurts to discuss it.

Personally, I don't want 717-300s. I'll be much happier winging my way to the west coast in an A319, thank you very much.

Travis

[Edited 2003-02-01 22:33:49]

rumorboy · Sun Feb 02, 2003 7:26 am

I have to agree with Travatl with this one. There just talking that's all. No need for every body to get worked up.

There has been some interest in the 717-300 by another carrier. Leonard has told us that before BUT that doesn't mean that Boeing is going to make it. What cracks me up is that everybody thinks that Airtran is demanding to build an airplane. That's not the case at all.

If I read that press release correctly, Its a Boeing salesman that said this. I Don't think he or she has the final say when it comes to making or continuing a production line. They don't tell you though that 757 line is coming to a complete stop because there are no orders. They don't tell you that 767-400 is a flop in most standards. They don't tell you that the 737-600 is a bigger failure than the 717. But yet they trash the 717.

As for Boeing vs Airbus, who ever makes the best offer wins PERIOD. I do believe that if Airtran had a choice that they would pick Boeing if all other things are equal. The time for expansion is now. Airtran is not going to wait too long. If this was a year ago, Airbus wasn't even in the picture but times have changed. Money talks, Bulls..t walks. Airbus is catching up to Boeing very fast, don't think for one second they can give a deal of a lifetime to Airtran.

Personally I believe both make a good product. Both can do well in LCC environment. The best part is its a family of aircraft.

gigneil · Sun Feb 02, 2003 8:06 am

This is where I toss in my standard 2 cents about differentiation.

I'd think it good if Airtran based A319s in Atlanta, clearly where Boeing is cultivating another posterchild customer. It would give them something else to put on their billboards to distance themselves even further from Delta.

Despite what Boeing may say, customers really do like Airbus planes, at least the business traveller. A lot of it has to do with their age and the way the interiors are configured. But US has used the A330 as a marketing tool, very successfully. And they're gonna be using the A319 as a marketing tool for the LGA-DCA and LGA-BOS runs.

Airtran can do the same.

N

BR715-A1-30 · Sun Feb 02, 2003 12:59 pm

Damn Travis, I have to commend you on that one. ::APPLAUSE::

I'm serious, That is the first thing I have read (on this post) that actually makes sense.

Boeing4ever · Sun Feb 02, 2003 1:16 pm

And Boeing4ever - you are an absolute jackass for your comments ("heads beaten in"?......nice) - but that's what happens when the teenaged-armchair-airline-CEOs toss their ridiculous two cents into the ring, with little or no fact or research behind them.

Ok, Mr. Adult-armchair-airline-CEO...tell me why Boeing should plunk millions of its own money into a new aircraft that will have ONE low-fare carrier as its customer. Then tell me whose two cents are ridiculous with little or no fact or research behind them!

B4e-Forever New Frontiers

Dash8King · Sun Feb 02, 2003 1:58 pm

I'm serious, That is the first thing I have read (on this post) that actually makes sense.

The only posts that don't make sense are the people that think Boeing should build the 717-300 and not worry about profit.

Boeing4ever · Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:08 pm

The only posts that don't make sense are the people that think Boeing should build the 717-300 and not worry about profit.

Now THAT makes sense DASH8KING, couldn't have put it better myself! Smile

B4e-Forever New Frontiers

Dash8King · Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:15 pm

Thanks B4e, some people don't realize that Boeing makes planes to make money and please customers not to please spotters.

buckfifty · Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:44 pm

I think you guys are all taking this a bit too seriously.

They're just talking right now. AirTran wants an aircraft on their terms, Boeing wants to sell them an aircraft which will guarantee a profit for their shareholders.

Any car salesman, when approaching a customer, will always want to try and upgrade the customer's target just so he can make a better buck. Why not buy the 737NG? It's cheaper for us, potentially cheaper to purchase to you, and someday, you can upgrade your entire fleet to 737's, which will make us even more money.

AirTran, on the other hand, is sticking to it's business model of operating one type of a/c to save costs. So they're also trying to twist Boeing's arm to get what they want by saying they'll go to Airbus. "So, if you aren't going to sell me that Cavalier at the price I want, I'll go and get a Focus instead."

It's really not a big deal. I'm sure eventually it'll be sorted out. I just hope that Boeing won't make another dumbass press release like they did with the Iberia order...

Dash8King · Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:54 pm

"So, if you aren't going to sell me that Cavalier at the price I want, I'll go and get a Focus instead."

Right but Airbus isn't going to build an 717-300 so Air Tran would have to get the 319 and Boeing knows this so that is why they are offering the 73G. No one is going to give Air Tran the 717-300(as of now) so why not offer the 73G it makes more money for Boeing. They are "upselling" something that every business with more then one product to sell does.

MD-90 · Sun Feb 02, 2003 4:25 pm

How many people that have responded to this thread actually work for Boeing? How many people on this thread have actual proof that Boeing has said that they couldn't make money on the 717-300?

Thought so.

717fan · Sun Feb 02, 2003 5:46 pm

According to Speednew.com a 717-200ER is also under consideration....
I beleive the order (if ever placed) could be 717-200ER and 737-700....

buckfifty · Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:05 pm

How many people that have responded to this thread actually work for Boeing? How many people on this thread have actual proof that Boeing has said that they couldn't make money on the 717-300?

Thought so.

Though you must admit, Boeing stands to make more money selling 737NG's to AirTran than they would the 717-300. Otherwise, they wouldn't even have pushed their proposal out in the first place.

Who knows whether Boeing will make money with the 717-300? I'm not even sure if Boeing themselves know this answer...

PW100 · Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:53 pm

I wonder, how badly does Air Tran need a 717-300 [ER]? How important is the single type fleet concept to them?

If that was really important to them, they could have well told Boeing: "we really like further development of the 717 series, to which we were -and still are- whole hearted commited to. However if that option is not available, we might be tempted to have a good look at the Airbus."

I would expect that Airbus is willing to hand them a very good offer, in order to prevent any future development of the 717 series. Airbus would also be keen to have another highly successful low cost Airbus operation on US soil besides Jetblue. That would be a real blow to Boeing, which is reluctant to invest in further 717 development not to endanger 737 sales, yet ironically they drive their customers to the competition.

PW100

Guest · Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:05 pm

What FL is saying is that IF Boeing builds them a 713, then it would be a guaranteed order for BA. If they don't, then the playing field between BA and AI is leveled and my guess is that AI will offer some good terms to FL in order to get them, such as paying off the debt that FL has with Boeing by refinancing it at a much lower interest rate.

Right now FL doesn't give a flying f**k if the MD95-50 would be profitable for BA, it is what they want the most. If push comes to shove and Boeing says no, then FL will accept it, and choose based on that.

travatl · Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:15 am

Exactly Lowfareair

Now take note boeing4ever, open your ears and learn something. AirTran is COMFORTABLE OPERATING TWO AIRCRAFT TYPES....I never said I wanted a 717-300 (in fact would prefer the A319), and only REITERATED that AirTran is not DEMANDING anything (please read posts in their entirety before spouting off - you only continue to show your lack of education and/or experience in this industry). Your rationalization that I think "Boeing should plunk millions of its own money into a new aircraft that will have ONE low-fare carrier as its customer. Then tell me whose two cents are ridiculous with little or no fact or research behind them!" are your own torqued sentiments...I never said that - it is merely a contrived, immature retort on your part because I apparently stepped on your toes.

HERE is the webcast from January 28 which explains the talks between AirTran and Boeing, and AirTran and Airbus. If you bother to listen to it you will hear that these are only preliminary discussions with all manufacturers, and Leonard continues to state that he is VERY COMFORTABLE operating two different aircraft types. NO DEMANDS, NO OPTIMUM CHOICES, JUST TALKS....

http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=AAI&script=1010&item_id=698450

Travis

BR715-A1-30 · Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:54 am

Thanx for the link Travis, I am listening to it now.

Flyer732 · Mon Feb 03, 2003 1:43 am

Exactly Travis...

Now...today is Sunday, we should have some oversells, come help us work them Wink/being sarcastic

~Ryan

travatl · Mon Feb 03, 2003 4:28 am

Silly Ryan - on this gorgeous day? I'm spending the afternoon lying in the hammock, drinking margaritas! So are you on the "D" concourse yet, or are you still working "C"......

I'll be back on Tuesday - when the loads are bareable......I've spent my fair share of time in the trenches! haha

Travis

coronado · Mon Feb 03, 2003 10:57 am

Nobody is mentioning the Embraer 190-100. $30mm cost, and almost 2300nm (4300 kms) or quite a bit more range than the 717 1430NM (or for the HGW 2000nm. Airtran could make a case for the lower cost of entry. I wonder if Embraer would look to produce a HGW higher range 190!

GD727 · Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:09 pm

Whoa! Part of Airtran's argument is not even making sense here! If Boeing indeed, does not build the 717-300, why in God's name would Airbus be a second choice? Think about it, a currently all-Boeing airline can not get Boeing to build the plane they want, so the decision is between the 73G and, say the A319. Why would they choose the A319 when they already have an all Boeing fleet? How does an A319 fit Airtran's current fleet better then the 73G, when Airtran already has an all Boeing fleet?

It doesn't make sense IMO.

-GD727

Guest · Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:15 pm

b/c the 717 is a MDD aircraft and therefore has absolutely no commonality with the 737 family.

ConcordeBoy · Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:17 pm

yes, but it DOES leave Boeing as one of FL's largest creditors...

Dash8King · Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:17 pm

Part of Airtran's argument is not even making sense here! If Boeing indeed, does not build the 717-300, why in God's name would Airbus be a second choice

Thanks GD727 that is what I have been trying to say the whole time. I could care less that AirTran would ask for the 717-300 I mean I would ask too what I think is stupid are the people who think that Boeing should build the 717-300 and not worry about what it will cost them.

BA · Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:35 pm

b/c the 717 is a MDD aircraft and therefore has absolutely no commonality with the 737 family.

That's not entirely true.

While the 717 has a completely different rating than the 737NG. They do have some commonality in the cockpit.

Boeing on purpose made sure to have some cockpit commonality with the 737NG to help make it more attractive to airlines.

Maintenance wise, they are different aircraft. Although some parts were made in mind that a 737NG airline could easily adapt to maintaining the 717 as well.

So yes, there is some commonality.

Regards

BlatantEcho · Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:55 pm

I think something that has been overlooked here, is the cost of NOT producing what the customer wants.

AirTran is growing, and will need many more planes in the future. They are currently utilizing all Boeing airplanes. However, not building the 713ER, even if Boeing only broke even on it, means that AirTran could go airbus.

Not good if all of a sudden AirTran loves the AI product and when it continues to expand, forgets Boeing completely.

While no customer can hold a gun to a companys head, the customer, as they say, is always right. The cost of NOT making the 717-300 might be higher over the long run than just breaking even on it and keeping future expansion of AirTran based on Boeing aircraft.

George

Flyer732 · Mon Feb 03, 2003 2:24 pm

Travis,

I didn't get D, althought I'm still filling in on Sundays and Mondays until the guy who got it moves up here...thats right...moves up here.

So for now I'm still on C, but we're losing a PM MOD to Ops, and who knows who the replacement will be. Hopefully someone that will open a line for me.

~Ryan

travatl · Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:41 pm

Ryan -

Let me guess...he's moving from TPA...

And as for this thread - I give up. These people are jut not looking at the facts - so goes a.net threads so often though.

Also BA - what do you mean there is some cockpit commonality While the 717 has a completely different rating than the 737NG. They do have some commonality in the cockpit. Boeing on purpose made sure to have some cockpit commonality with the 737NG to help make it more attractive to airlines.

Uh, not really....unless you mean that both flight decks are comprised of state-of-the-art technology, then yes...but the 717 cockpit is based on the MD11 cockpit, not the 73G.

717 Flightdeck (AirTran)

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

CanadianNorth · Tue Feb 04, 2003 12:31 am

Im with Boeing... I think that they are simply pushing the NG737 because they have kept the 737 line going for so long they dont want to stop now. i think that AirTran should consider taking the 737s!!! but thats just my opinion

CanadianNorth

rumorboy · Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:46 am

How important is the B717, in 2002 you booked orders for:
162 B737
32 B717
32 B777
17 B747
8 B767
0 B757

Wake up Seattle the B717 is tied for your second best selling aircraft in 2002.

Flyer732 · Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:55 am

RumorBoy....

Most of those 717s went to AirTran. You can't expect large numbers of orders for 777s, 747s, and 767s because only larger airlines use them. Thus the short haul aircraft will always be the bigger sellers.

As an AirTran employee, I'd rather see the 737 than a 717-300...and I think most of us feel the same way.

~Ryan

travatl · Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:02 am

I agree with Ryan on this. When you look at the NUMBER of airlines that book each aircraft type, the 717 falls way to the back.... (and actually as an AirTran employee, I want the A319 - but anybody can write a Xmas list, right?).

Travis

Flyer732 · Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:01 pm

Travis, I'd rather see the A319 too, I think it'd look better in our paint and I'd rather get pics of it...beggers can't be choosers. Anything is better than the DC-9 eh?

~Ryan

buckfifty · Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:32 pm

Since it's a Christmas list, ask them for the Sonic Cruiser. Makes for quite a commute, I reckon...

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