dripstick
Posts: 2320
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 9:43 am

Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:19 pm

Air Canada will reportedly cut up to 10,000 jobs and may be forced to sell-off JAZZ.

Here is the bad news...

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1035777504682&call_pageid=968350072197&col=969048863851

Dripstick
What's another word for thesaurus?
 
dripstick
Posts: 2320
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 9:43 am

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:22 pm

What's another word for thesaurus?
 
slawko
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Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:33 pm

Its kind of a mix of good and bad news I think....Bad news for those 10000 people, but these are cuts that should have been made in 2000/2001 after the merger and not now when they are on bankruptcy's doorstep...Hopefully they will be able to lean up the operation enough to get out of the hole....
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:42 pm

"CUPE administrator Ken Hopper, recently appointed to oversee the CUPE Air Canada component, said he is not expecting major job cuts today and that his members have job guarantees until 2005 under a recently ratified contract.

"I'm going there with an empty notebook, waiting to hear what they tell me," he said. "

What an idiot....It's stuff like that that is going to put AC under!!!!
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Thu Feb 06, 2003 11:21 pm

Air Canada is stupid for offering no layoff guarantees for certain members. Even the government doesn't offer that to its workers, so what is going on at Air Canada??? Seems like they want to go under.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Thu Feb 06, 2003 11:34 pm

Maybe under protection they can get rid of the people/dead weight that they need to to get themeselves back on track....On top of Jazz I think we will see Technical Services next on the selling block...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Thu Feb 06, 2003 11:38 pm

If people's jobs are protected, and they have to get rid of them, how is that a good thing for AC? I just don't see what your argument is, that's all.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
AirCanadaMan
Posts: 458
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RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Thu Feb 06, 2003 11:39 pm

According to the CBC, Air Canada is selling: (along with Jazz)

"49 per cent of Air Canada Technical Services. ACTS maintains Air Canada's fleet of 220 aircraft, as well as other airline customers. The division employs approximately 8,000 staff with six major Canadian maintenance base centres in Halifax, Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Calgary and Vancouver. "

"A "significant stake" in its Airport Ground Handling Services business, which is being made into a separate division. The ground handling operations provide customer check-in, ticketing, baggage handling, ground equipment service and aircraft ramp handling. The division employs approximately 8,500 people in Canada, the U.S., Europe and Asia. "

Now thats interesting...why would they sell something as key as ground services? Is it more viable to sell it to somoene, and then contract them out to perform the same services you once owned?

I realize it works with small airlines (Westjet uses Hudson General, or whatever they are now..), and at small stations, but at places like Pearson and Dorval?..not to mention a much larger and varying fleet...

Either way, Air Canada will never be the same as it was before Canadian came along, and most certainly not as it was as a Crown Corporation.
 
fallingeese
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RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:17 am

Jazz has been on the selling block since it was created, and even before that. Jazz was set up to be more attractive to potential purchasers. Zip's new whiter scheme, although called a "slight tweak" by Steve Smith, will save the carrier $50000!
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Fri Feb 07, 2003 1:08 am

I agree with AirCanada man re AC ground services. Indeed it is a vital component of the carrier, and given the fact that AC may even downsize
somewhat, it would still, in my opinion be too large an operation to relinquish control of such an important area of service to pax. It would diminish the "idea" of a mainline carrier in pax minds to check-in with, who?,
Hudson General? (for instance).

I also agree with those here who stated these cuts are perhaps late in coming,
and the "no-layoff" guarantees was an absolutely asinine decision, especially given the fact that AC is part of an industry which is tremendously volatile,
to say the least. I have worked in the airline industry as an FA, and now in the high end corporate incentive/meetings/groups arena, and know full well this industry may perhaps offer incredible opportunities for business and personal travel, which I've enjoyed to the max; it just does not offer
security and guarantee along with it. It never ceases to amaze me just how AC, and especially the collective bargaining divisions turned a blind eye and
deaf ear to this fact.

Air Canada Jetz being sold off is no surprise to me. Absolutely wrong idea at the wrong time (high end corporate charters?).

And don't forget, when all is said and done, Air Canada has a debt load of
$12 million, and climbing. Perhaps they painted themselves into this corner.
After all, being the dominant carrier (understatement) in a country where the demographics do not support industry diversity and ample room for side-by-side competition, just WHO is going to take on ACTS? And if someone (or firm) does purchase Air Canada Tech Services, will THEY themselves not be at the mercy of the fate of AC itself? TS Has their own Tech division, as does
Westjet. Hmmmm, makes me wonder.

Canadi>nBoy
YYZ
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Fri Feb 07, 2003 1:17 am

The AC purchase of Canadi>n has greatly contributed to the ill financial health AC presently finds itself in. But remember that Ottawa placed incredible pressure on the AC board to purchase the dying CP. That said, AC found/finds itself in the same position PWA did after the ill advised purchase of Wardair International. This may sound brutal, and insensitive (especially considering the fact I hail from a CP family) but perhaps one harsh lesson to be learned here is to simply "let the competition die".

When I look at the whole AC picture, I can now see why Milton is so gung-ho
on expanding Tango and Zip. But Milton beware, for when you place all of your eggs in one "division", be prepared for the unpredictable turn of both the economy and the tastes and fickle demands of the travelling public. Not to mention the roller coaster twists and turns of the industry itself, aside from
the economic factors. Like everything else at AC, the ideas were implemented perhaps too long after their initial discussions. But to be fair to AC, some of the present industry writing was not on the wall in 1999-2000. Perhaps the future AC (just conjecturing) will be comprised of a "mainline" international division and the low-cost North American division. Wouldn't surprise me.
 
AC183
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RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Fri Feb 07, 2003 1:51 am

Months ago the rumour was that ACTS was going to be partially sold to Lufthansa Technik. Don't forget that while TS and WJ may already have their own operations or maintenance contractors, that lots of foreign contract work is brought in - of all the businesses they're thinking of spinning off (Aeroplan, Jazz, handling) it's probably the least dependant on AC itself.

Will they sell minority interests in everything, or will some of it be sold off completely, that is a question to be answered as well. The more it gets dismantled, the more one has to wonder what will be left but a loose collection of affiliated operations. It might be okay for now, but how well will that work in the long term as the parts drift further apart?
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Fri Feb 07, 2003 1:54 am

Air Canada lost $90 mil alone on Jazz last year...

Again, the domestic market is flat because of Chretien and sons... lets keep taxing the nation to death.... A**Holes..

Mark
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Fri Feb 07, 2003 3:08 am

AC183, I neglected to think of all the foreign contracts at ACTS. Thanks for bringing that up. Duh!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


Slawko wrote:
"CUPE administrator Ken Hopper, recently appointed to oversee the CUPE Air Canada component, said he is not expecting major job cuts today and that his members have job guarantees until 2005 under a recently ratified contract.
"I'm going there with an empty notebook, waiting to hear what they tell me," he said. " What an idiot....It's stuff like that that is going to put AC under!!!!"


You would be surprised as to how "incestuous" an airline and its employees can be. By this I mean that one would think that the employees and unions
representing the bargaining units would be up on current industry conditions and events ie UAL Ch. 11. And to a degree, they are aware of the current health of certain carriers and the industry at large. However, I can tell you first-hand from being with an airline for 5 years, that not only are many employees oblivious to overall conditions within the industry, they are also shockingly oblivious to conditions within their own "family" per se. Remember, I said "many", not "all". I have had several discussions with AC cabin crews on some of my flights, and there were occasions where myself and my work colleagues brought them "up to date" on AC. Many of these FA's and pursers honestly were in the dark where AC was concerned (guess they tossed their CUPE monthly newsletters!) And I can't say I was surprised at this. (Note, I am by no means implying I am the industry "Know-all", as some think themselves to be...far from it).

In my opinion, and experience, this "thinking inside the box" attitude extends to the unions as well. Now, certainly, CUPE knows the situation at UAL and AMR, for example, but their primary vision is focused on Air Canada, and their division members, which, theoretically speaking it should be. But this attitude can be a detriment and an Achilles heel when it comes to what lies in the best interest of its bargaining members. Do the unions assess, for example, UAL or AMR conditions (which are a reflection of the North American sector as a whole)? Yes, and no. Yes, they see and hear about current labour negotiations going on at other carriers, but no, they seem not to ascertain that these conditions and "environmental" factors may somehow apply to their own carriers and employees future. In short, what you have is the classic "doesn't apply to us" syndrome. Dangerous territory in which to walk.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Fri Feb 07, 2003 3:46 am

What has happened to AC, UA and the other established high carriers is that the LCC concept has tranformed the industry and cemented with customers that flying is indeed a commodity: the lowest cost provider wins. The LCC concept grew during the late 90's but exploded after 9-11.

AC et al are now stuck with restrictive high-cost union contracts out of step with the new revenue environment.

If AC does shrink drastically in the coming year in order to survive, this will provide more oppy for growth by Jetsgo, WJ et al. We may then see a truly balanced domestic competitive industry with no dominant carrier.

Either way, the Sr mgmt at AC and the AC union leadership have shown themselves over the past few years to be completely inept at running an airline. It's time for bombastic Milton to go.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Fri Feb 07, 2003 4:31 am

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Robert (Arnold Ziffle "Green Acres")
Milton, has had only one item on his agenda whilst at AC: Robert Milton's
stock options. I cannot believe how he has steered this carrier into a sea
of confusion, not to mention a $12 Billion (approx) debt load. True, the debt was there, and climbing when Uncle Miltie "boarded", but talk to a lot of AC employees, and what you'll hear is severe anger and confusion as to what has become of Air Canada. They simply have little or no idea what direction their carrier is headed in; what the mandate is.

Bad and "downer" news for the AC employees, and perhaps especially poignant for the former Canadi>n Airlines International workers, who have more than seen their share of concessions and grief in their careers (and lives). But, when all is said and done, perhaps the AC employee groups could have softened the inevitable blow by focusing on the industry health and trends, and aligned and revised contracts a few years back. Mind you, hindsight in indeed 20/20. While I understand the urgent need for concessions (and layoffs) at AC, one cannot fault the ex-CP workers for sighing a collective groan at giving back wages once again. You have to have worked for CP or know CP people and the Canadi>n envrionment, especially in the last few years, to understand just how battle weary and TIRED these men and women are. However, the battles with Canadi>n have made the ex-CP
employees one tough bunch of cookies. When I flew FRA-YYZ in November of 2002, the AC FA's (all of them, and seniors) expressed a genuine fear of working alongside their CP counterparts, once seniority issues are decided upon (yet another mess at AC).

 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Fri Feb 07, 2003 6:57 am

When I flew FRA-YYZ in November of 2002, the AC FA's (all of them, and seniors) expressed a genuine fear of working alongside their CP counterparts, once seniority issues are decided upon (yet another mess at AC).

Why are they fearful? Fearful of what?

The inability of the unions incidently to resolve the AC vs CP seniority issues has contributed to the inefficiency at AC.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Fri Feb 07, 2003 7:17 am

The frustrating part is that the attitude in the "galleys" right now is "we've seen and heard it all before and we lived".

Yeah...

Let's see now... what's left of AC... 5% of their planes is actually OWNED by them. With a supposed sale of Jazz, ACtech and Aeroplan. That leaves them with... uh... what to fall back on like we've done in the last few years? Warehouse full of swizzle sticks? Nope. Cara's.

I know! Thermal ticket printers! There are a LOT of those at Pearson and they are worth a hefty sum. High tech stuff. That's right! All Check in agents shall hand write paper boarding passes.

Whew! Another year taken care of.
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Fri Feb 07, 2003 7:41 am

"Why are they fearful? Fearful of what?"

Quite a bit, it would appear. As I stated earlier, anyone who has even a basic knowledge of Canadi>n and its turbulent last years knows full well just how angry the Canadi>n employees were, and still are. These groups (pilots,
FA's, mechanics, ground services, etc.) have been through the ringer with
CP. They agreed to concession after concession, and through NO fault of their own, they were the victims of horrid mis-management and extremely bad decision making by the ex-CP management group. Subsequently, and especially in the last decade of Canadi>n's existence, the unions themselves became more than bitter, and strengthened in terms of collective "unity".
The ex-Canadi>n employees have grouped together VERY strongly.

What does this have to do with Air Canada's bargaining groups/divisions? A lot. There are basically two camps at AC now, AC and ex-CP. Remember,
the ex-CP bargaining groups have seen their share of stress and, and are very savvy and extremely shrewd. In short, they are very "street smart". The Air Canada bargaining divisions, having faced nowhere near the volatile working environment the CP groups did, are much more complacent overall (even several Air Canada FA's noted this to me). Since the takeover of CP by AC, the ex-Canadi>n crews and employees have banded together like you would not believe. They have aggressively maneuvered their way into top "AC" union
local positions, thereby calling the shots ala "Canadi>n style". The AC FA's told me the CP crews have sabotaged AC ballots for union members voting on local division heads (this, they said, is denied by the CP crews,) yet it would appear ex-Canadi>n pilots, FA's and ground staff now hold the vast MAJORITY of union local key positions at AC. ex-CP crews have successfully thwarted AC members from voting by also changing dates and locations of bargaining division locals by infiltrating the AC employee websites.

The AC crews have told me that they have never seen anything like the
bitterness and anger directed at them from the ex-CP groups.

In short, ex-Canadi>n crews/employees are now literally calling the union shots at Air Canada, much to the anger and apprehension of "AC" employees. There have been many violent confrontations between Air Canada and ex-CP crews (at union meetings, as the seniority lists still have yet to be merged), and more than several AC employees have told me that the CP crews were absolutely vicious, with many physical assaults inflicted on AC by ex-CP.
Police now are a mandatory presence at Air Canada union meetings, and, it has been said, at YYZ and YVR bases. The ex-Canadi>n employees, from having been through their own CP hell in the past, are now, as the AC people put it, on the seniority list warpath. Now that ex-Canadi>n holds the key union local positions system wide, they are in a prime position to steer the bargaining division decision in their favour (CP wants "date of hire" to be the deciding factor in the merged lists; AC wants "1 in 3/4" as the merging directive).

The ex-CP people have more than communicated to AC people that they
will fight this to the bitter end. They have had enough of being the "underdog". They feel they have been through their own CP hell in the past, are now, as the AC people put it, on the seniority list warpath.
The anger is so severe that AC FA's and CP FA's have their own crew check-in areas at some bases. And don't even mention Robert Milton and the board to these ex-CP employees. They feel they have been treated like garbage and, as one CP FA put it "we were reluctantly taken in like unwanted orphans by Milton. He wanted the CP Asian routes, but had to take us in the deal".

The above is not my input or expression of how "I see it". These are incidents and events described to me by more than several Air Canada crews, and ex-Canadi>ners.

Anyway, I could go on with many AC vs CP incidents, but I need a coffee.


 
SafeFlyer
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RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Fri Feb 07, 2003 7:45 am

I agree completely with the fact that everybody is confused about what's going on. Remember, when they announced 2nd and 3rd quarter results, everybody was praising their achievements... But now, from what I understand and as been very-well explained by Canadi>anBoy, AC has been a complete mess since the merger with CP and I came to conclusion long ago that Milton has to be replaced by someone with more vision, charisma and business leadership. Having degrees in economics and marketing does not make you necessarily a good businessman, a respected "gestionnaire". Unions need to make concessions in order for AC to survive, especially with the imminent attack of Iraq and the potentially devastating consequences. Largescale but relatively small pay cuts of maybe 5-6% along with layoffs are a necessity even If that means going to court for AC.

Selling important and valued assets such as ACTS and GS will only decrease the overall value of the company. Such moves represent maybe quick cash on a short-term basis, but dangerous moves on the long-term basis and curioulsy remind me the slow decline of the PanAm empire.

Instead the company could:
-return and store the remaining 737s in the mainline and Tango fleets witch are costly to maintain and instead replace and increase the daily flight hours of the A319/20 a/c wich are more fuel-efficient to improve the productivity. (That also means less a/c type in the fleet).

-Reduce turnaround times of domestic and transborder flights to a maximum of 40 minutes If possible.

-Transfer to Zip or Tango all of the remaining flight/destinations of the mainline wher the J product is unprofitable as well as the Rapidair flights.

-Reduce the number of J class seats on selected intl routes (such as charters to the Caribean) and low-yield intl routes.

-Increase the number of Y seats even at the expense of legroom If that means more cost-savings and lower fares for the passengers, precisely what consumers are looking for today.

-Closing some US flights on which there are very few profits to be made and redeploy capacity to new, more profitable destinations or, in the worst case, returning a/c to the lessors.

Those are my thoughts that I wanted to share. I still believe AC can be viable, but dramatic cost-cutting measures and a new management team are required for them to survive in the current environment.




 
Guest

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Fri Feb 07, 2003 8:01 am

Safeflyer, excellent points.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Fri Feb 07, 2003 8:26 am

Thanks for the details CanadianBoy. That's shocking! To think that labour relations (not just union/mgmt, but intra-union) could be so bad!

All the more reason NOT to fly AC. The non-merging of the flight crews & separate crew check-in areas adds cost & inefficiency that is passed on to the flying public. So when I fly AC, I'm playing extra to cover the cost of this union infighting. NO THANKS!

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
rindt
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Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 3:08 pm

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Fri Feb 07, 2003 4:49 pm

Neil,

While I agree completely about what you're saying about how the low-cost structure of the Canadian skies has essentially changed air-travel as we know it, your choice to NOT fly with Air Canada doesn't help them get out of the red ink.

Which brings me to my point. Air Canada is one of the only airlines in the world with an 80% market share in its own country(roughly, I don't know the exact amount down to the last dot) not making any money. Why? Because, simply put : there is no loyalty by their customers anymore. They've continuously treated them like shit time and time again, that people like Neil would be willing to say, fly YVR-SEA on Horizon, and catch AA to NRT, or OZ to ICN because they're fed up with dealing with AC's crap. It's all the small things that count - like not upgrading a frequent flyer because an FA would have to walk 30 ft to grab an economy meal to the biz-class when not having enough biz-class meals. Once Air Canada disolves this "we own you, and you should feel lucky enough to have us" pompous attitude they dish out, they will continue to suffer from dis-loyalty. The only way I see it changing, is by kicking yankee Robby Milton to the curb, and bringing in someone fresh, with a clear mandate - that focuses on the customers (after all, they're the only ones able to get them into black ink again). AC desperately needs someone new to the picture - who isn't favoured by either CP or AC, so the bitter sentiments can be left behind, and CP employee get what deserve - one-to-one on seniority list. One would also think it would be a good time to refresh the public image with a new scheme, to at least give the traveling public the idea of a unified company - but of course, where does the money come from?

It's the beginning of the end for Air Canada, but is it really? We all know the gov't will step-in and fork out whatever is necessary to keep the airline running. Meanwhile, airfares increases, staff continue to get more bitchy - and taxes go up as a result... yeah, it's a win-win situation... not.  Yeah sure
Milton knows this, so he couldn't give a rats-ass from here on in what goes on with the company - we need someone new, and NOW.

-Rob

What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
CRJ 900
Posts: 541
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RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sat Feb 08, 2003 12:28 am

Well I can tell you this much, at least from a Jazz perspective...there has been NO and I emphasize NO violent, nasty, childish outbreaks of any type between the former AC and CP people at our company. Why is that? Well because we had a civilized and reasonably focused merge. Our seniority and other issues were dealt with prior. What goes on at mainline is unbelievable, but, I have no pity for them. At the former CRAL, CP mainline people walked all over us as did the mainline AC to their former regionals. What goes around comes around and you reap what you sow. If you are nasty, some day it'll come back to bite ya in the ass. So now the two of them can fight between each other like a bunch of kids till they kill themselves. As for the sale of our company, that's an interesting one. AC is dependant upon us to provide feeder service and obviously we need them for market share as well. I can't imagine WHO would purchase us, the only possibilty and this is far fetched at best would be Deluce(ie REGCO) but i highly doubt it. Interesting times folks.
 
Cessnapimp
Posts: 1245
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RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sat Feb 08, 2003 2:08 am

Hey there!

Just to let you guys know I have been to YEG, YYC, YUL and YVR at least a half dozen times and I have never seen or heard of this crew check- in area.

There is Police presence at the meetings I can confirm this, I've been there.

All F/A's will be integrated in March.

Although there is some bitterness with a select few (of course, they are the most vocal), the general consensus is that either side cannot wait to get this over with and integrate.

The only lingering agenda is the "Burkett award" that stipulates the seniority of crew by their date of hire with AC. Although the award has been implemented, ex- Cail's are appealing that decision.

"ex-Canadi>n crews/employees are now literally calling the union shots at Air Canada"



Not exactly true, no one is calling the shots as AC Cupe is in the middle of an election proccess. Pamela Sachs, Richard Nolan and Claire Renaud are still in the race for the election which are running right now as I type. Running against them is a mixed orig. AC/ ex-Cail component, Martin Bergeron, Sheena Murdoch and Tom Slade. Results will be tabulated when the voting ends Feb 20th.

Safeflyer,

I agree with you, these are all excellent points!

Grégoire
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sat Feb 08, 2003 2:27 am

Yyz717 wrote:

"The inability of the unions incidently to resolve the AC vs CP seniority issues has contributed to the inefficiency at AC."

True enough. There is no question that having two separate crew "lines"
does not make for efficiency and is non cost-effective. It is also causing migraine headaches and ulcers in AC crew sked. However, Yyz717, there is much more to this mess than meets the eye. You have to understand that the unions are adhering to the collective mandate of their respective division members. And both these divisions (AC/ex-CP) are adamant in their demands
for their respective views of what constitutes a fair merged AC line seniority
list. This is such a catch-22 scenario, and round and round everyone goes.

Plus, you have to understand that this "battle", this "division" stems from a long long way back to the days of Canadian Pacific Airlines vs Air Canada.
The seed for division was planted long ago, and one has to shake their head and wonder just where the logic was when the CP purchase was discussed and executed.

Sadly, no-one is the winner, and a once unified AC workforce is now in
shambles, with many thanks to Robert Milton and co., as I will explain.

Rindt wrote:

"The only way I see it changing, is by kicking yankee Robby Milton to the curb, and bringing in someone fresh, with a clear mandate - that focuses on the customers (after all, they're the only ones able to get them into black ink again). AC Desperately needs someone new to the picture - who isn't favoured by either CP or AC, so the bitter sentiments can be left behind, and CP employee get what deserve - one-to-one on seniority list."


Agreed agreed agreed. Robert Milton and the AC board, from day one of the CP buyout, have made NO effort, NO effort at all to ensure the ex-Canadi>n workers felt, or feel, that they are truly welcomed into the AC fold. Instead of striving to oversee and implement a policy that ALL the employees are truly one team, one Air Canada, Milton, the ass, took the opportunity to figuratively rub salt into the wounds of the ex-Canadi>ners. The bloody ex-CP Asian routes/network represent more value to AC than the combined years and experience of the collective ex-CP group of employees. And Milton has more than communicated this fact (amongst others) to the CP groups. In short, and kindly pardon my language here, gentlemen, but this topic riles me up, Milton and Co. have treated the ex-CP employees like virtual shit. They were slapped in the face repeatedly and let down time after time by the ex-CP management group, and subsequently thrown into the AC camp where they were greeted with yet more slaps.

Note: to be absolutely fair here, it must be stated that not all Air Canada
employees harboured bitterness to the CP group joining the fold. There were quite a few AC people who, aside from being in the opposite camp, felt for their CP counterparts, and did not wish to see them lose their careers.
Unfortunately, this state of mind did not extend to a majority of AC employees, and most certainly did not find its way along the corridors to the Air Canada executive offices and boardroom in Montreal.

And continuing to be fair, it must be said that there are two sides to every story re AC vs CP, however, in this case, I'm afraid the CP groups have endured more than they ever deserved at the hands of Robert Milton.

What a nice welcome indeed that Air Canada offered to the people of
Canadi>n Airlines International! AC office-human resources teams walking into the CP head office at YVR airport after the purchase, and, not even saying a
"hello" to the CP folk, proceeded to walk through the CP headquarters,
and in front of shocked Canadi>n workers, removed any and all Canadi>n
Airlines International insignia items, wall pictures, etc. CP logo pads, paper, pens, anything and everything, were tossed into garbage bags in front of these people, many of whom were in tears by witnessing this and suffering the blow of their once proud carrier now gone. A friend of mine who worked at CP Head office, and was there to witness this, told me how, in response to a secretary who wished to keep a CP framed wall picture for herself, an AC employee smirked and told her, "Go ahead, it's absolutely worthless and redundant, now". Umm Hmmm, and a warm warm welcome to Air Canada, folks!


When AC officially purchased CP, Robert Milton issued a directive to "Air Canada" employees. This directive stated that any Air Canada employee could pass ride on any Canadi>n Airlines International flight systemwide, based on space available basis. This offer was NOT extended to the Canadi>n Airlines International employees, who briefly had their OWN passes suspended by Milton! Conversely, Canadi>n employees were not welcomed to pass ride on stand-by on any Air Canada flights. To add the icing on the cake, and fuel to the fire, the directive also stated that AC employees would assume stand-by pass priority for Canadi>n flights OVER the Canadi>n employees (once Milton reluctantly re-instated the CP crew pass privilege)
on CANADI>N livery aircraft. Canadi>n pilots, FA's, pax service agents, res agents, maintenance/tech employees, who, remember, had come through years of stress and concessions to save their beloved CP, had to now stand by and watch Air Canada employees bump them off of CP (at this point, AC still operated AC and CP separately) flights. Nice, Milton, very fucking nice. And THIS, this gentlemen, was the initial "welcome" that Canadi>n Airlines employees received from Uncle Miltie. You want to talk about a group of
battle-weary employees being collectively and justifiably pissed off?

And let us not forget the matter of the YYZ base flight deck crew check-in
offices at Pearson. Air Canada flight deck crews check-in at their spacious,
comfortable and efficiently designed area. Fair enough. And why shouldn't AC provide their employees with a positive working environment? No arguments here. However, the ex-Canadi>n pilots, not being welcomed in the AC flight crew check-in office, were housed way down the hall in the most
cramped and depressing office, one with not-the-best air conditioning, and
the computers installed in this office were used hand-me-downs from AC.
Tis true. Now, I understand the fact that while the politically hot topic of merged seniority lists was on the front burner, perhaps it would make sense
to keep the troops at arms length for the time being. I can accept that.
But to house the ex-CP pilots in what amounted to a space slightly larger than a janitors storage room is unforgivable. The message Milton sent to
the pilots was loud and clear: "I wanted your Asian routes, and perhaps a few other assets, you all however, in my eyes, are not viable assets. And this is to remind you that the AC pilots are top-dog". Hyperbole? Perhaps, but actions clearly speak louder than words.

Oh, and the matter of Milton issuing the directive to the ex-CP pilots to turn in their old CP uniforms and hats to the AC uniforms centre. Many CP pilots wished to keep their hats, which were an emotional momento to them of
the years they proudly flew the CP skies. Milton said no. If they did not
turn in the ENTIRE CP uniform, they would not receive the AC uniform, which meant they would be "off line". Illogical? Petty? Cruel? You think? The CP pilots protested, to no avail. Uniforms and hats were turned in. AC uniforms dept threw the CP pilot hats in green garbage bags, and left the open garbage bags in the crew-check-in hallways for ALL to see on their way to check-in. Nice. CP pilots got the last laugh, as the green garbage bags "mysteriously" disappeared. Today, I am proud to say that many an old CP pilot has their hat "hangin off their bedpost". Screw you, Milton.

And then there is the little eesny teesny matter of catering and commissary
issues on-board the Air Canada-Canadi>n operated flights with ex-CP crews.
Just to show the CP crews how much they were wanted and welcomed into the AC fold, AC commissary and catering crews repeatedly short-changed
the AC-CP operated flights of meals and supplies. This I experienced for myself on a YYZ-YVR-YYZ trip, operated by CP. Ex-CP pursers, doing their
pre-flight galley checks, would continually be short meals or TSU's (tray set-ups) amongst other items such as Coffee pots, serving trays, bar trolley items, etc. The CP crews would argue violently with ground services, who "promised" the missing items would be delivered prior to push-back. The items, in many cases and flights, did not a materialize...surprise surprise. On my YYZ-YVR CP operated B-744 flight, 23 pax went without breakfast....23 pax (I heard this number from the purser). The ex-CP crews were furious, to say the least. And who suffers in the end, aside from the cabin crews? The AIR CANADA revenue paying customer.

CP crews battled with AC ground services to have CP ONLY ground crews service CP operated AC flights (can we all say together, "One carrier, One
team, Uncle Miltie!"). AC said due to ground crew sked conflictions, this would not be the case. AC turned a deaf ear to the CP crews, and a blind eye to the many CP operated flights departing short essential pax service items. It was only after pax complained bitterly to AC that Milton and Co. issued a directive for these "discrepancies" to stop (!?)

And people wonder why the Canadi>n crews are a tad hostile? W H Y they have banded together, W H Y they are so militant in their hatred for Milton? The blatantly biased attitude displayed by Milton towards "AC" employees is fueling the fires with the ex-Canadi>ners, and for God sake, who can blame these people? It is Milton and the AC management group who have sat back and watched this AC vs CP mess grow, fester and gain momentum.

For the record, and blast me all you wish, but I'm siding with ex-Canadi>n crews in the seniority list battle (date of hire). While I can of course somewhat understand the AC viewpoint "we bought THEM, we saved their jobs" argument, the heart of the matter is that CP crews entered the AC fold with years of experience (and make no bones about it; in the seniority sweepstakes, ex-CP pilots and cabin crews in many cases have it way over their AC counterparts, especially at the YVR and YYC bases, this primarily being due to the fact of the many years of CP hiring freezes, and AC hiring sprees) and Robert Milton, had he been in the right frame of mind, had he focused and thought like a leader and thought clearly about the ramifications of unifying two workforces, would have to yield to logic and RESPECT for the CP workforce HE ELECTED to bring on-board. In the end, this decision really should have lied with AC top management (in a perfect world) and it is THEY who should have been unbiasedly empowered to ensure that the date-of-hire merge directive was the only FAIR one to take with the CP groups. It was AC management decision to the purchase, therefore they should have, MUST assume the responsibility for that decision.

All this being said, I must myself be perfectly un-biased and state that the
Air Canada union offer of "1 in 3/4" (the difference being based on "date of hire base) is in all actuality NOT totally unreasonable or unfair. However, this offer comes after a year and a half of AC groups indifference and snubbing of the CP groups. What there HAS to be, is an effective and caring leader who
can successfully steer his AIR CANADA team towards a common meeting ground. As I stated earlier, there are sadly no winners here. And, to reiterate, the biggest losers of all are the revenue paying customer.

Adios, Robert. You came in to Air Canada like a hurricane. Sadly, the
state of affairs at your carrier reflect severe hurricane damage. Zip off,
dance the Tango and listen to some Jazz somewhere else.




 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sat Feb 08, 2003 6:08 am


I think it was silly of Milty to sort of publicly strut a few months ago --when AC had that moneymaking quarter and he was trumpteting like 'when so many of the majors are bleeding money, look we're making it, hahaha' -- now that the same brick wall that hit those 'majors' are hitting AC too, now. As well as so many of its sort-of-entrenched mandarin-minded employees. But ah well, have to deal with the reality now. Part of which at this late date I fervently believe includes putting ex-Canadian employees on an exactly level playing field --seniority lists, union positions, the whole enchilada --I mean c'mon Milty it's 2003 fer cryin' out loud, the merger's well past now.

On the other hand it may indeed have taken a sort of rough-and-tumble 'outsider' like him to shake things up in the often-Byzantine world of AC management decisonmaking, and in truth Tango and Zip especially don't seem to me to be all that bad as moves (was reading a few days ago, even Tango supposedly has a roughly 25% lower cost structure, than mainline). It is a shame that both services --and especially Zip --weren't given at least another year to spread their wings and stabilise a bit --no pun intended-- but ah well, the reality and brick wall is what it is, and so just has to be dealt with.

Getting AC more market-driven and customer-friendly (as well as internally unified) may be some silver linings to the clouds that have recently blown in. Including hopefully some incentives to further RJ-ify the fleet, whether at Jazz --or its successors if it breaks up again, maybe along ever-more-stricter Provincial lines-- or possibly even at mainline with possible scope-clause concessions. I think it's pretty silly that there are now nearly a hundred CR7s flying around commercially, but none of which are in Canadian skies.

And ditto for the Q400 -- I figure it really doesn't reflect well on either Bombardier or for that matter the Canadian civil aviation establishment as a whole, to have left SAS and Tyrolean --and maybe a few other carriers, even though Augsburg and Horizon seem happy with theirs-- with so many hassles, being guinea pigs for the plane during its overly-lengthy teething period. On the plus side Hydro-Quebec now has two of them of their own, but still...it's only scratching the surface given that no Q4s are flying for anybody's sked service, in the country.

But those fleet issues are minor ones, compared to just getting the AC staff all on the same page. And with no more of this stupid ex-Canadian vs. dyed-in-the-wool-AC discrimination and infighting nonsense.


 
Guest

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sat Feb 08, 2003 7:10 am

"Although there is some bitterness with a select few (of course, they are the most vocal), the general consensus is that either side cannot wait to get this over with and integrate."

A select few? With all due respect, from what I've been told by both AC and CP FA friends, the bitterness extends far beyond a select few employees.

I have no doubt both sides wish for this to end and integrate, it has been emotionally exhausting for all sides concerned. However, integration on each sides terms. AC is most definitely for "1 in 3", and CP is adamant over date of hire.

And for those who feel this whole "battle" is childish and foolish, walk a mile
or two in the shoes of BOTH ex-CP and AC employees, then review the entire
mess.

"Part of which at this late date I fervently believe includes putting ex-Canadian employees on an exactly level playing field --seniority lists, union positions, the whole enchilada --I mean c'mon Milty it's 2003 fer cryin' out loud, the merger's well past now."

Agreed. The time has long since passed when Milton should have assumed a positive pro-active role, acted like a leader, and created a truly unified work force. The merger and transition period lasts only so long, accompanied by "growing and adapting pains", and the airline itself, God willing, will continue on for decades. One airline, one fleet, one workforce. Date of hire.
Those who don't like it can quite simply look for the exit door, jump down the slide and move far away from the aircraft.


 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sat Feb 08, 2003 7:27 am

Well, maybe the ex-CP and current AC FA's should just be glad they have jobs. Life's too short.....

We're all CANADIANS right?????

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sat Feb 08, 2003 7:49 am

Hmmmm, yeah, when all is said and done, life is indeed too too short. And as I stated in an earlier post, the AC proposed seniority of "1 in 3" is one I could live by, if push came to shove. Better to be an FA, if that is your life desire, than to be working at Swiss Chalet as a Babushka server!

 
CRJ 900
Posts: 541
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 4:41 am

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sat Feb 08, 2003 9:29 am

Well if AC files for protection, that means union agreements could go as well, along with that(AND OF SPECIAL INTEREST TO ALL OF US AT JAZZ) will go the SCOPE. For all those AC people who think we are protected by our agreements, i doubt it. Hypothetically speaking, if nobody buys Jazz and the scope is gone, Robert would be smart to get some more RJs and have us(with our lower cost structure) operate ALOT of short haul, especially to the US.We are technically a "full service" short haul carrier....so why not? Ok, no business class, but whaddya want on an hour or two flt?The mainline guys who are flying the RJs now, have ALL been awarded larger a/c and are getting paid those rates(IF YOU CAN BELIEVE IT!!!) to stay on the RJ till they phase it out. If you think for one minute that they offer them a lower rate to stay there, i can guarantee ya they won't. AC doesn't NEED A340-500s to operate ultra long haul, they can muddle by with things they way they are and defer those airplanes for a later date.Mind you this is a perfect way for Robert to union bust...but thats another topic in itself. OH, BTW...J class is being removed from the 146s and the are now to be crewed with 2 FAs.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sat Feb 08, 2003 10:57 am

I'm surprized actually that AC mainline operates CRJ's with the higher pilot salaries. No other US major flies RJ's in their mainline! The RJ's should be transferred to Jazz immediately. Of course the pilot scope rules probably prevent this.

I agree with CRJ-900....AC does not need the 345. I can't believe that YYZ-HKG which is primarily a leisure route can return a profit for AC if they use the expensive 345.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 447
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sat Feb 08, 2003 1:03 pm

Last week I flew YUL-YYZ-YUL.

I counted 17 separate,direct employees working a 50 minute flight that had 53 people on board. Most of the 17 employees dedicated specifically to the flight I was on (except the pilot, co-pilot and 2 of the 3 F/A's) sat around and did nothing for 90% of the time.

Only 12 people could have easily handled the load even if the plane was 100% full. I made a point of observing the whole process in all its ineffecient splendor.Even worse, it was a low cost carrier.
The whole system is staffed for maximum traffic even though it rarely actually occurs.

Now that people aren't allowed to be the beneficiaries of employer paid,tax free "airmiles" on business flights anymore,the stark reality emerges.
The airlines are even less efficient than governments are.

 
lasbagman
Posts: 343
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 8:55 am

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sat Feb 08, 2003 1:42 pm

Canadi>n Boy,

GlobeGround North America, Ex- Hudson General groundhandles Air Canada and Tango in LAS. We are completely trained in Air Canada procedures and check in is done through Res III system. Missing bags are handled through Air Canada'
Worldtracer.
Air Canada has signage behind the counters and the passenger really does not know that we are not AC employees. Our station has a very good reputation in the system.

This time in the airline industry is turbulent with changes everyday. I came from PSA AIrlines AND am Ex Canadian Airlines, so I do feel for the AC employees.
 
lymanm
Posts: 1100
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:30 pm

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sat Feb 08, 2003 2:07 pm

Canadi_nboy, thank you for bringing to light these stories of AC crassness during the merger. I don't think anyone here can deny that CP employees have been through a rough time for most of their careers. However, from an unaffected point of view, it seems as though the bitterness shared among CP employees (that you seem to represent) has been as counterproductive to the corporate health as Milton's dirty tricks has. I will certainly appreciate your reply to this message, but beware your intense bias and personal experience is only one side of the story. Remember, it takes two to tango.
buhh bye
 
lymanm
Posts: 1100
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:30 pm

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sat Feb 08, 2003 2:12 pm

"No other US major flies RJ's in their mainline!"

Remember yyz717 that the US regional pilots and FAs get paid in USD and in many cases make more in take home pay than many junior RJ pilots; the RJ is among the most junior aeroplanes at AC. You may argue that the US regionals earn US revenue to balance this out and vice versa, but remember many AC RJ flights are US transborder, so there is no shortage of US revenue for the RJ fleet.

Airplanes or aeroplanes? meh
buhh bye
 
Cessnapimp
Posts: 1245
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2001 11:46 am

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sat Feb 08, 2003 2:34 pm

"A select few? With all due respect, from what I've been told by both AC and CP FA friends, the bitterness extends far beyond a select few employees."

They are either hypocrits with you or with me...
I sat down with many ex CA on deadheads last summer, nothing but good times and a willingness toi move on.

That story about AC coming in and smashing CA paraphenelia is entertaining but unfortunately untrue and designed to entertain bitter feelings on behalf of hardcore "you should of let us die instead" CA fanatics...

Like Yyz717 said, be happy you got a job!
 
CRJ 900
Posts: 541
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 4:41 am

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sun Feb 09, 2003 2:38 am

Just a point of interest and I may have mentioned this elsewhere....Jazz does NOT want AC's old RJs. They are amoungst some of the first produced and are -100s with less range than ours. We have DUAL fms(mainline has single), headup, leather seats(pax luv 'em but i think they are cold....bbbbbrrrrr) oh ya and ours are -200 long range models. They can keep 'em. But it is stupid that they award their pilots another a/c type and then pay them those rates just to entice them to stay on the RJ now until phase out....what brainiac thought that one up? Needless spending. Pay those boys(and girls) their A320 or B767 pay when they actually FLY the damn airplane. If they are doing stupid things like that I can just imagine what other assinine schemes are in play at AC.Just one in a long line of many reasons why things are the way they are at this company.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sun Feb 09, 2003 3:41 am

Is there a firm plan by AC to retire/remove the CRJ-100 fleet and slowly (or deliberately?) transfer all current CRJ routes to Jazz? Is AC restricted from doing this by the latest AC pilot contract?

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sun Feb 09, 2003 4:01 am

Lasbagman wrote:

"GlobeGround North America, Ex- Hudson General groundhandles Air Canada and Tango in LAS. We are completely trained in Air Canada procedures and check in is done through Res III system. Missing bags are handled through Air Canada' Worldtracer. Air Canada has signage behind the counters and the passenger really does not know that we are not AC employees. Our station has a very good reputation in the system."

Mr. Lasbagman, I should have rephrased that statement I made in reference to Hudson General. I find myself guilty of sometimes not reviewing and revising ideas and thoughts I write. By no means did I mean to imply any negativity, lack of professionalism or skills on the part of your company. My firm (world corporate meeting/event planning) has utilized the Hudson General team at YYZ-Pearson on several occasions for aircraft/flights our company has chartered for our clients. We were more than satisfied with the H.G. team each time. They never let us down, and went beyond the call of duty each flight. I had no idea GlobeGround-NA handled AC/Tango ops in LAS. I learn something new every day. Grazi Tanto for the info!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

"This time in the airline industry is turbulent with changes everyday. I came from PSA AIrlines AND am Ex Canadian Airlines, so I do feel for the AC employees."

Indeed, these are exceedingly turbulent times for the aviation industry, no doubt about that. And the turbulence has only really just begun. We are going to witness future severe changes in the Canadian aviation sector, the likes of which we never would have imagined. Our firm has very strong ties to Air Canada, as we have a long standing contract with them for our client base.

If I have painted AC as the perpetual "bad guy" and "rotten tomato"
here, than I apologize profusely. I spoke of the CP group perspective in all this and I do not retract anything I wrote. These men and women HAVE travelled a long and bumpy road, and their indoctrination into the AC fold was one of
coldness, anger and ill-treatment thrust upon them by many AC staff. I said MANY, not ALL, as both AC and CP groups contained/contain members who really wish to work together in harmony. Yes, it does indeed take "two to Tango", and the ex-CP group has more than its share of members who would not bury the proverbial hatchet, focus on an Air Canada of the 21rst century, and strive for "line unity" across the board. However, as I stated in earlier replies to this topic, many (not all) AC employees did not exactly help the situation by displaying rude and cruel behaviour towards many of the ex-CP group.

But then, what is the root cause of all of this? Where does one find the source of the turbulence? It is NOT the AC employees who I fault for the absolute mess AC finds itself in today (and I dare anyone here to tell me $12 Billion of debt-and climbing; low-cost brand names that dilute and eventually destroy the word "Canada" in "Air Canada"). It is NOT the AC groups AND ex-CP groups I totally blame for the "battles" and tension between the two camps. I shamelessly point my finger towards the executive offices of Air Canada - YUL, and ESPECIALLY at Robert Milton and his ill-advised and inept board.

Robert Milton, in my opinion, is a narrow-minded, shrewd (for his own advancement and ego only) and utterly close-minded man who, as an American, could not, and cannot even begin to acknowledge, decipher,
assess and comprehend the nationalistic "body politic" of the Canadian
environment, and especially the Canadian work ethic. Here is a man who is,
in my opinion, NOT smart, but sly, and therein lies the difference re the running of Air Canada. Here is a man who came into the AC fold with absolutely NO idea as to what constitutes the "Canada" in "Air Canada". He thinks inside "the American box" and never changed hats to adapt to overseeing and running a Canadian airline. He views the company as a potential pseudo American corporate machine (a Canadian AND American flag on the fuselage at door IL of A320's and other airbus aircraft flying the trans-border routes!), and has displayed time and time again that he could not give a rats ASS about the Air Canada employees, and that now extends to the ex-CP group, who, if under positive and effective leadership, should and must recognize themselves as members of the "Air Canada" team.

As I have said before, and shall state once again, this "battle" between the two camps stems back long before 1999. When I was growing up, the contempt and brutal sense of competition between Air Canada and CPAir
was intense, and was not helped at all by the pig-headed fossils on Parliament Hill in Ottawa, who lavished and nurtured their "crown corporation carrier" and
virtually ignored, or deliberately thwarted any desire on CP's part to grow and
flourish in the Canadian market and beyond. Not that Parliament Hill ever could see far enough to know there was a Canada beyond the western border of
Ontario to begin with.

What does this have to do with Robert Milton (and Ottawa) in regards to the Air Canada of 1999 and now 2003? A lot. HAD Robert Milton and his board of merry-men carefully and thoughtfully studied the history of Air Canada and Canadi>n Airlines International respectively through the decades before purchasing CP; HAD Ottawa realized the severe implications of integrating two work-forces that, for the most part, harboured severe contempt for one another (and if Ottawa was ignorant of the fact of the "two camp" situation
that existed between AC and CP in 1999, then that in and of itself is a frightening thought to ponder);HAD Milton and the board any sense of foresight and industry trend progressions in their heads and realized that the combined numbers added up to too many in the merged AC pie, and taken steps in '99 to effectively streamline ops and employ a healthy number of merged lists; HAD Milton and the board sat down with AC and CP bargaining division heads and members PRIOR to making the purchase decision, listened carefully to the storm warnings and then steer the ship to create a relatively stress free merger of the two bodies; HAD Milton gone to the CP groups and explained (in another mans vision) the plan to save CP jobs and create a unified workforce; HAD Milton done the same with the AC groups, again, PRIOR to signing on the dotted line....and on it goes.
Too many "Hads" here.

And what then, DID he do? Nothing. Absolutely NOTHING, no effective steps taken on his part to successfully bring together two (for the most part) opposed workforces and inspire by creating a positive and progressive template for the two bodies to come together, bury the hatchet, and become
a CANADIAN carrier. Ottawa gets the darts here as well. To ignore, IGNORE
the bitter and ugly history of relations between AC and CP, a history, I must point out, that they themselves very much lent a hand in creating and sustaining through the decades. And to instill a clause whereas "no-layoffs until 2005" for some members would apply? This clause in and of itself more than bears light on the fact that Ottawa (and through them, Milton) were living in some archaic dreamworld of a labour environment that has all but vanished, ESPECIALLY in the aviation industry, where the turbulent winds blew around the closed and sealed mental boxed Ottawa and Milton placed themselves in.

What floors me, absolutely FLOORS ME to no end, is the fact that AC management, Ottawa AND some of the employees themselves (not to mention the public) are "shocked", "disturbed" and "awed" at the present internal labour environment at AC in both 1999 and 2003! What the HELL did anyone expect to happen? How the HELL did anyone begin to THINK this would all go off without a hitch, that the AC and CP groups would come together and form some pseudo "Brady Bunch" ensemble? Could they have? YES, with effective, strong and positive CANADIAN leadership. Can they? Can the damage be un-done? YES, IF and only IF Milton disembark and retreats to the American industry, where perhaps he is better suited. And IF Ottawa wakes up and realizes they are virtually stangling the Canadian aviation industry with asinine security taxes and other bloody irrelevant surcharges thrust upon a public who now prefers to pocket their coin and drive to short-haul destinations. And don't bloody well tell me about "improved security measures in effect at Canadian airports". I fly approach 2-3 times per month,
and I still see the same inept and archaic measures in place. CAD$24.00,
my ass.

For the record, I hail from a very strong CP family. Both my parents joined Canadian Pacific in the late 50's, and one of my brothers and 2 cousins were with Canadi>n since the early 80's. Am I a "Canadi>n Brat"? Yes, and I'm proud to say I am. I literally grew up with CP in my home. Through them
(read: my family) I travelled the world via CPAir and Canadian Pacific/Pacifique
and Canadi>n Airlines International, and this late great carrier really and truly was part of our family. Unfortunately, by time I joined the "line" as an FA,
it was not with "the family firm". The seniority factor at CP would have kept me a "reserve" slave for years (there's only so many times y'all can visit
Whitehorse or Prince Rupert!) so I joined the now late, wacky and wonderful WG of YYZ. (not for me them shorthaul runs!).

Anyway, where was I? Oh, yes. Perhaps I am somewhat biased towards the Canadi>n group, but you must understand I grew up and watched second hand the turbulence this carrier "flew through"; the battles this carrier fought with both AC and Ottawa for the right to fly and spread the wings of "the Goose". The decline and demise of Canadi>n was a very poignant time in my life, although what I felt was NOTHING compared to the men and women who
wore their "Proud Wings". I do have a point to make here, so bear with me!
 Smile/happy/getting dizzy

That said, and all that aside, believe me, I more than understand that the CP buyout has been very hard for the AC groups. As I said, I fly Air Canada at least 2-3 times per month, and I can tell you I have met some very wonderful and dedicated pursers and FA's. CP by no means had the "monopoly" on exceptional employees. As a matter of fact, there were more than a few bad apples at Canadi>n, as there are at any carrier. I can more than understand the AC frustration, anger and apprehension as their carrier was thrust into a quite turbulent flightpath back in 1999. But also understand what a rocky and
tension filled road the Canadi>n crews have travelled.

**********************************************************
Lymann wrote:


"Canadi>nboy, thank you for bringing to light these stories of AC crassness during the merger. I don't think anyone here can deny that CP employees have been through a rough time for most of their careers. However, from an unaffected point of view, it seems as though the bitterness shared among CP employees (that you seem to represent) has been as counterproductive to the corporate health as Milton's dirty tricks has. I will certainly appreciate your reply to this message, but beware your intense bias and personal experience is only one side of the story. Remember, it takes two to tango."

Read the above, Lymann. And may I kindly suggest you re-read CAREFULLY
what I wrote in previous replies? I've read many of your thoughts and ideas on this site for some time, and I have no doubt that you're a very smart and insightful guy. But, CP employees being counterproductive? You bet your ass they are being (sadly) just that, but, to reiterate, read the above, and perhaps we can all learn the quintessential definition of " Cause and Effect".

And, just for the record, yes indeed, two groups have danced the Tango here.
One group aggressively led the dance, the other group reacted and danced a little faster and harder. But remember, Lymann, both parties are dancing to the tune that was selected and being played by the orchestra and its inept bandleader.

**********************************************************
Cessnapimp wrote:

"That story about AC coming in and smashing CA paraphenelia is entertaining but unfortunately untrue and designed to entertain bitter feelings on behalf of hardcore "you should of let us die instead" CA fanatics... Like Yyz717 said, be happy you got a job!"

First of all, go back and read what I wrote in respect to AC entering CP YVR H.O. I NEVER implied or stated the fact the AC people "trashed" the Canadi>n offices. Do NOT put words in my mouth and Do NOT re-write what I stated in order to negate my opinions and thoughts in order to advance your own thoughts and opinions. And furthermore, I DO NOT come on here and type BULLSHIT or fabricate events in order to advance MY argument or steer others towards aligning their own views with my own. With me, it's black or white. If I BELIEVE it, if friends of mine impart this events to me, then I trust them, and will believe it to be so. A very good friend of mine, as I STATED, worked at the Canadi>n H.O in YVR and saw the AC behaviour and actions for himself. My close and chosen friends are NOT liars, nor are they hypocrites. And neither am I. These people, believe it or not, are not close-minded pro-Canadi>n. They realized then, and realize now the good grace and fortune they have to STILL be employed in an industry that they absolutely love working in and are passionate about. They want integration. They wish to
continue working for Air Canada. All they want is what is F A I R. BOTH
groups have to move beyond this "us vs them" mentality and focus on
the Air Canada of 2003, and beyond. God only knows they cannot look for direction from Milton and co.

As for me, yes, I am happy and grateful I have a career in 2003 that affords me happiness, fulfillment and lots of world travel, thank you very much. In 1990, I and every other employee at my airline lost our beloved aviation jobs due to financial collapse of our carrier. I would never, NEVER wish that living hell upon any of my travel industry colleagues. Believe me, I very much feel for ALL the Air Canada employees who may be facing layoffs.

"you should of let us die instead" CA fanatics"

Yes, these people exist, and I find it rather sad they have adopted this mentality. They have not moved on, but remain anchored to a time and work environment which has long since vanished.

I wish nothing but the very best for all of the employees at Air Canada.
May they, all of them, put aside the past and focus on creating a strong
and unified workforce. May they soon have an intelligent and insightful leader who will enable them to, once and for all, bury the "Goose" along with the hatchets, and proudly serve a united and strong Maple Leaf.

Aaaah, now, I need a coffee and a cigarette, excuse me, gentlemen.


Kind regards to all, and safe and happy flying.
Canadi>nBoy
YYZ















 
Guest

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sun Feb 09, 2003 4:40 am

Cessnapimp wrote:

"They are either hypocrits with you or with me..."

Hypocrites? No, I don't doubt what I've heard from my ex-CP friends, or my AC friends, for that matter. But on the same level, one must realize that we all, each and every one of us, interpret sights and sounds and words and situations that can only be expressed by us as individuals. As I've said, I've flown AC so many times since the merger, that I have seen and heard this negativity for myself. HOWEVER, please understand that I do have high enough of an IQ to comprehend the fact that not every soul at AC is hell-bent on beating war drums.

You also said.....

"I sat down with many ex CA on deadheads last summer, nothing but good times and a willingness toi move on."

Now THAT makes me smile a warm smile and makes me feel good. I am so glad to hear that. I sincerely hope this positive attitude spreads and prevails at Air Canada.

I truly believe the ex-Canadi>n people must look upon the events of 1999 as one would the death and loss of a beloved family member or friend. Or perhaps the loss of their "home". And in a very real sense, it was indeed a painful loss for them and all of us who belong or belonged to the "Canadi>n Family". This loss was accompanied by the process of shock, grief, anger, bitterness and a sense of individual and collective helplessness. The "CP family" banded together and bonded in order to get through the painful transition period and the equally painful acknowledgement of the fact that their world had irrevocably changed forever.

We, none of us, can "go home again", but we can, together, create new homes, new positive ideals and new and cherished friendships. It's not about "Canadi>n", and it's really not about "Air Canada". What it IS about is a collective group of highly skilled and professional men and women who share the common bond of their love for and about civil aviation. Much like all of us who visit and contribute to this wonderful website. People, like the aviation industry itself, are evolving, aspiring to new heights and moving on with their careers and lives. Perhaps "Proud Wings" isn't really gone after all, but can be affixed to a red Maple Leaf in order to make it fly "above and beyond".


Aaaaah! I feel good!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Love and Peace to all.
Canadi>nBoy
YYZ



 
Cessnapimp
Posts: 1245
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2001 11:46 am

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sun Feb 09, 2003 5:29 am

Well,

One thing's for sure, we'll know real fast on how it all comes together as all (ALL) AC F/A's will receive, for the first time since the merger, one big booklet of blocks to bid on. Full integration in March... we live in interesting times...

On a lighter note, here's what's been conjuring up on an airline website of ours, I thought it was great!

Presenting the F/A intregration theme song!

The AC bunch
(From the Brady bunch)

Here's the story of our great company
which is made up of fa's from many more,
All of them from our land Canada
The youngest ones are temps.

Here's the story of TC and PW,
CP, Trans, EP, WD and many more
And how, they all came together
to create one great united workforce.

Then came one day when the fa's flew together
And they knew that it was much more than a hunch
that this group would somehow form a family
That's the way we all became the AC Bunch!

The AC Bunch! The AC Bunch! Before a bunch of sour raisins,
Now TOGETHER, PROUDLY we're the AC BUNCH!

Hehehe
Grégoire
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sun Feb 09, 2003 5:41 am

LOL! Yeah, I saw that. Needs to be fine-tuned a bit, lyrics wise, but at LEAST
there is a display of a sense of humour going on there.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sun Feb 09, 2003 6:18 am

Canadianboy, while you blame Robert Milton exclusively, I think the AC employees deserve alot of the blame for the current poor state of AC, primarily thru the inefficient work rules negotiated by their unions on their behalf.....these work rules are strangling the airline as it searches for efficiency.

I'd put the blame equally on incompetent mgmt & intransigent unions.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sun Feb 09, 2003 6:41 am

Yyz717, I went back and re-read what I wrote, and I must say I absolutely concur with your statement. I'm afraid I was subconsciously "holding back"
from stating the fact, or mindset of the AC unions due to the fact that I did
not want to be looked upon as being absolutely "anti-AC" and terribly biased towards Canadi>n, as some here think I am. So I'm glad you said it here!

What truly bothers me is are the union heads, attending the emergency meetings with Milton and walking in with closed minds and empty notebooks.
I'm afraid these people cannot see the proverbial forest for the trees, and
God only knows what distorted message(s) they will impart to their respective bargaining division members.

I will also say that I truly feel the ex-Canadi>n groups will have a far more sound and accurate assessment of the current financial health of AC, as they have been well educated on keeping up with management tactics and
maneuvers from their CP days.
 
CRJ 900
Posts: 541
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 4:41 am

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sun Feb 09, 2003 8:53 am

yyz717 in answer to your question, AC is supposed to retire the CRJ from their fleet in 04 with the end of the leases. Depending on how many CRJs Jazz eventually gets will depend on whether or not we take over those routes for them( we would like and are supposed to be getting 39, but that has recently changed as the 10 146s are staying and we are scoped to 39 jets, SO make it 29 if we can get some good deals). The problem is that Jazz management couldn't finalize a deal if they tried. They nit pick over the stupidest things. There were 10 CRJS from Kendell sitting in YYC which they went after but lost out some of them to another airline cause they couldn't close the deal due to their ridiculous bargainning. Also, they are gonna have to do something about some of the Dashs. I believe we have #3 off the production line in our fleet. Some of them are VERY long in the tooth if you know what I mean. We will definitely have need for the Dash in the future, it would be great to get some new ones but apparantly Bombardier doesn't want to help out the Flag carrier's regional out and give them the same deals they give Americans (go figure) i guess they don't want to keep their people employed either.What a shame.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sun Feb 09, 2003 10:03 am

Thanks for your response CRJ-900. Given that AC has ~25 CRJ's, it seems reasonable that the Jazz fleet will eventually grow to the full 29 CRJ's once the AC leases expire.

As for the Dash 8's, some of them are indeed old....dating from the mid-80's. If AC was in better shape, they could perhaps roll over the older -100 fleet with the new Q200/300/400.

It would also be nice to see Jazz eventually add the CRJ-700 and -900. The -900 would be a good replacement for the 10 146 aircraft. Incidently, the first -900 was recently delivered to America West Express. This is one looooonnng aircraft!


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I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
lasbagman
Posts: 343
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 8:55 am

RE: Air Canada Job Cuts Coming

Sun Feb 09, 2003 12:04 pm

Canadi>n Boy,

Working for Canadi>n Airlines and Candi>n Holidays was a great experience, one for which I shall never forget. I was with the for 11 years and the service we provided was legendary.
The charters in to PSP and the service we provided are now looked on as something from the past.
The negative working for them was the feeling of doom and despair and having to bail the airline out and never knowing when your job was going to end.
The USA employees were non union and we did not get the chance to work for Air Canada, AA handled CP and all the CP employees were let go and all ground handling provided by AA circa 1996.

Tango to LAS was not doing well and the flights will revert to AC mainline next month.

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