rw774477
Posts: 1013
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2001 4:15 am

UA 767 Downrated

Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:43 pm

Some UA 767's have been downrated from 'ER' configuration.
1. What is involved ?
2. Why do it ?

rw774477
 
FlagshipAZ
Posts: 3192
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:03 am

ER is "extended range".
#1. What is involved?.....the removal of the extra fuel tanks in the belly.
#2. Why do it?.....To save money. Savings of fuel costs & landing fees.
I'm sure there are more in-depth reasons why the 767 are now "non-ER".
Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
UA744Flagship
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:14 am

The UA 767-300s that have been derated are N664UA-N677UA (yes, there is a N666UA!), which are the 14 767-300ERs (derated) that United uses for domestic services.

Theoretically, these aircraft could be easily converted to serve international missions if demand warrants.

Also, it is my understanding that many, if not all, of UA's 16 777 international "A" market aircraft have had their huge PWs derated as well.
no wire hangers!
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:27 am

I always thought that the ER versions of airliners had the center fuel tank utilized for more range instead of aux tanks.  Confused It's only been recently that liners added the auxilary tanks in the cargo hold.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:31 am

I'm not surprised that UA's fleet of 777-200A's were switched over to primarily domestic operations. They would be perfect planes for the SFO/LAX-JFK routes and on the US West Coast to Hawaii routes.
 
ual777contrail
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:52 am

777's switched over to primarily domestic ops? We fly them across both ponds daily, adding more flights like KIX-HNL using a 777. We don't use them primarily for domestic ops. i would say we use them primarily for international travel.

and second, I wish they would stop slicing up the 777 into two cabins. I wish they would stay three, but the company know what they are doing, sometimes.
 
N777UA
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:42 am

The 777s that United has in a 2 class configuration are the ones going from SFO/LAX/DEN to Hawaii...they will not be used on international and KIX-HNL flights. There are only 6 of them...6 out of 60 777s in the fleet.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 6:27 am

You fly 777-200A's domestically, UAl777contrail. I don't think you still fly them across the pond due to cargo. What Ray said was right. You use them 2-class to Hawaii among other US destinations because of low yields.

The PW4077s on the 777As probably haven't been derated. That's the lowest possible configuration anyway, I believe.

The 767s have also had their engines derated to save fuel, since they won't need all that power just to cross the country.

N
 
UA744Flagship
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:15 am

Gigneil:

Only 6 777As are used in a domestic configuration. They are N210UA-N215UA and all were delivered in 2000, as compared to the 16 "original" 3-class 777As which were delivered between 1995 and 1997.

These 16 non-ERs *are* most definitely used to Europe. Notably, they are the primary staple on the IAD-Europe and ORD-Europe flights along with occassional 777ERs. And like the 23 strong non-Pacific ER fleet, as well as the Pacific-configured 15 strong new interiored ER fleet, they do fly the US hub-hub routes.

The 16 3-class 777As are the only 3-class 777s with Economy Plus, as well as enhanced Business.

Reference my fleetguide here:


Also, there are some if not all of the 16 777As that have been derated, Gigneil. The thrust as they were delivered was not the lowest possible configuration.
no wire hangers!
 
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GreenArc
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:20 am

FWIW,

All UA 767-300 aircraft are ER configuration and 180 minute ETOPS certified. Some of them are low gross weight models with derated 52,000 lb engines and 360,000 lb MTOGW. These aircraft are two class and fly domestic and Hawaii. The three class aircraft have 60,000 lb motors, gross at 407,000 lb and fly mostly international Atlantic. Systemswise, these aircraft are pretty much identical. The engines are interchangeable and "dialed back" for the low gross use. The engines are also used on the 747-400 at 56,000 lb.

"Some UA 767's have been downrated from 'ER' configuration."

Some 767-200 aircraft have been recently removed from ETOPS status, not ER configuration. These aircraft are used solely for domestic operations with a very occasional equipment substitution to London. Lack of proper VHF radios prevented them from going further east than LHR. They were (are) scheduled to go to Victorville and were removed from ETOPS status pending the final grounding.

Hope this helps.

GreenArc
 
gigneil
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:24 am

They derated the engines on the 777-200As to less than 77k pounds? That's really tough to believe.

N
 
N777UA
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:34 am

So anyone know when the 767-200s are going to go to VCV?
 
concorde1518
Posts: 723
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:12 am

Hey, Flagship, could you possibly post the Regs of the Pacific and Atlantic ER's too?

Thanks
 Smile
 
concorde1518
Posts: 723
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:20 am

GreenArc Wrote
"All UA 767-300 aircraft are ER configuration."
Looking at the Jet Airliner Database (it's a year old) 767 page, N664UA-N677UA have been downgraded from ER, so have they since put them back to ER?

Here is the link:


 Smile
 
mel
Posts: 1042
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:23 am

Usually the 777s used for Transpac are 2820 N220UA and higher. I believe they are configured for F10/C49/Y216 which means two less First Suites, and no Economy Plus. I've wondered why no E+ ---> maybe because there's no competition among other transpac carriers for an E+ product (with the exception of MRTC on AA). Sorry to get off topic.
NO URLS in signature
 
gigneil
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:31 am

Concorde1518- that's pretty much the point of this thread. They have downrated engines, but they're still 767-300ERs.

N
 
flyguy1
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:04 pm

With the UA 767-200's going to the desert, what type will be replacing them on the transcon flight's? LAX, SFO-JFK or 8x per day this summer, will the 767-200 still be around than?
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
N777UA
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:30 pm

The 767-300s will be used for TransCon, and maybe a "nicer" 757 will be introduced, with biz seats instead of dom first.
 
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GreenArc
Posts: 83
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:54 pm

"All UA 767-300 aircraft are ER configuration."
Looking at the Jet Airliner Database (it's a year old) 767 page, N664UA-N677UA have been downgraded from ER, so have they since put them back to ER?


JP Airline fleets correctly lists all the 767-300s as ER aircraft (as does Philip Birtles in his book). N664UA-N677UA are all capable of being upgraded to the same thrust and weight of the other 763s in the fleet. The change would involve paying Boeing for the certification, dialing up the thrust and reloading the software. Fuel capacity and equipment are identical. It boils down to this: they were cheaper to buy, they are cheaper to operate and they do everything req'd for domestic and Hawaii with plenty of margin.

With the UA 767-200's going to the desert, what type will be replacing them on the transcon flight's? LAX, SFO-JFK or 8x per day this summer, will the 767-200 still be around than?

They were planned to be replaced by a combination of 757 (poor choice, I know) and 767-300. There is a chance of a reprieve however. All the aircraft leases are being reviewed and anything can happen.

GreenArc
 
AA717driver
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:05 pm

I believe all 767-300's are "ER"'s. Some are just 'more' ER than others. The first 767-200's that TWA got were truly not ER models. They were modded to become "ER"'s later(I don't know what they did to get them there, though).

Most up or downgrades to weight and power are software and paperwork issues. TWA upgraded some 757-200's to "international" status by upping the MTOW by 7k/lbs.(I believe that was the number). It was just a matter of informing Boeing and paying several thousand bucks more per month on the lease.

Now, the only true 767-200ER aircraft are the -200's Continental has. They have really long legs and are worthy of the name. SmileTC
FL450, M.85
 
gigneil
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:58 pm

There are lots of "true" 767-200ERs. US's for example.

N
 
UA744Flagship
Posts: 1433
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:27 pm

Please see my fleetguide for all reg & seat config information.



MEL:

The transpac 777s have pilot bunks in place of the original F class lavatory, with a new lavatory being placed in place of the 1st row of center First Suites. In Coach the crew rests are in a lower lobe cargo compartment.

You're right about why there currently is no E+/C+ on these planes -- they are going on routes downgauged from 747-400s so United figures the loss in perceived product quality will be more than compensated by almost guaranteed "good" loads as a result of a downgrade from larger equipment.

Correction: the transpac 777s with the nwe interiors are N216UA-N229UA, 15 in total.

Note that transpac just means the 777 configuration; it does not limit the plane's rotues. You will sometimes see transpac 777s to Europe, and you may even see 777ER (non transpac) aircraft on the shorter routes to NRT, such as SEA-NRT and occassionally on SFO-NRT when there was a 777 on the route.
no wire hangers!
 
UA744Flagship
Posts: 1433
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RE: UA 767 Downrated

Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:32 pm

What's up with airliners.net linking?

My united fleet guide is at

http://fleetguide.imkeww.com
no wire hangers!

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