CanadianNorth
Topic Author
Posts: 3133
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:41 am

Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:24 pm

Canadi>n Airlines intl. was born out of the merge of CP Air and Pacific Western, a western based private enterprize what would eventually be swallowed up by the eastern based government supported Air Canada.
I remember when I was younger we always flew Canadian. I still have many thins in my room like pens, posters, those little I fly Canadian stickers, travel bags, models etc. etc. aswell as many happy memories. Canadi>n was the first airline I flew, the one I flew the most, the airline that took me to Australia - a dream come true, and many other happy memories.
I liked Canadian much more than Air Canada. Many people I have tlked with agree that they preferred Canadian's service over Air Canada's. Another thing about Canadian is hey also flew to the northern 3rd of Canada, unlike Air Canada.

Anyone have any memories about Canadi>n?
Stories about Canadi>n?
Agree that Canadi>n had good service with friendly staff?
Agree that Canadi>n deserved credit for serving the north well?
What could possibly go wrong?
 
westjet_8
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 11:38 am

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Fri Feb 14, 2003 3:22 pm

I remeber jumpseating into San Deigo and talking with the piolets for most of the flight then the almost empty terminal when we got there. I also because I had a younger sister remeber the great kids pack they used to give out, with all the stickers and everything. I also remeber how the meals and in general service was much beeter then Air Canada's I also liked how they had there headquateres in Calgary instead of Toronto or Vancouver. My last memory is how my family would always go out of its way to fly Canadian over Air Canada, like on one of our flights to Phonix we connected American instead of United ect
Canadian. RIP 1999
 
Ansett767
Posts: 812
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 9:33 am

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:43 pm

I can't say this is on topic,
But we had the same in Australia: Ansett went out of business and Qantas remained.

I much preferred Ansett as an airline, and I'd say that most people's opinions were similar - especially in terms of service back then. Qantas now has Virginblue as a competitor here, and has made huge efforts to try and increase their service, and it's finally showing which is good!

I never had the chance to fly Canadian but I really wanted to  Sad
 
lymanm
Posts: 1100
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:30 pm

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:50 pm

I jumpseated a MCO-YYZ flight back in 2000 when those AC flights were still operated by CP-only crew, what a great bunch of guys! They were both keen on meeting their AC counterparts and have adapted quite well, which, from what I hear and read, is quite contrary to other CP employee groups.
buhh bye
 
Britair
Posts: 900
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 3:50 am

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:14 am

I have very fond memories of Canadi>n, beginning with a flight on CPAir from Sydney to Nadi/Fiji in the 80's on a DC10. I subsequently flew them many many times, mostly when I was living in Vancouver.

My flights with CP:

Sydney-Nadi DC10
Honolulu-Vancouver DC10/763
Vancouver-Honolulu DC10/763
Vancouver-Calgary 737
Calgary-Montreal 737
Montreal-Toronto F28
Toronto-Vancouver 763
Vancouver-Los Angeles 737/320
Los Angeles-Vancouver 737/320
Vancouver-San Francisco 737
San Francisco-Vancouver 737

I had many friends who worked for them so they always felt like the "family" airline. I was working for Qantas when oneworld was launched and working for Brirish Airways when the left - that was a sad day!


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Gone. But not forgotten. We miss you Canadi>n. Long live the Proud Wings.

 Smile
 
yyc_cda
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 5:19 am

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:55 am

As a former CP employee, I do miss working for them! Perhaps we cared too much for the customer and gave away too much for them when we were in competition with AC.

When we started working for AC, there was hope and potential after the merger to be one of the best airline in the world. But all this has faded and not impressed with the management style at AC. CP was not well managed but AC is even worse and very badly managed. They certainly do not care about their employees and customers!!

 
JAL
Posts: 3875
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2000 12:37 pm

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:58 am

I have never flew with Canadian but I heard from others that they offered excellent service! It's a shame that they're no longer in business!!!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
FlyboyOz
Posts: 1743
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:05 am

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:12 am

I agree...I have flown Canadian Airlines in 1997 and 1998. The flight attendants were friendly but the inflight service was extremely POOR! And also the seat pitch in economy class has more spacious than other airlines!

Honolulu to Vancouver DC10-30
Vancouver to Los Angeles 737-200
Vancouver to Hong Kong B747-400...I was so lucky to fly on the first-reg aircraft which is C-GMWW

Cheers
The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
 
spyderz
Posts: 624
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 8:06 am

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:29 am

While I had flown Canadi>n only a few times, probably my best flight ever was on them. It was LHR-YVR on a DC-10-30 where I had the entire 5 middle seats to lie out on. It was one of the few times I have slept on a plane, but it probably also shows why Canadi>n is no longer with us.
 
crj-900
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 12:08 pm

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:48 am

Does anybody else find it interesting that most "great" airlines are now defunct? Could it be that perhaps you are viewing these airlines in a slightly biased manner?

A couple questions for CanadianNorth, what is the relevance of the fact that Air Canada is eastern based? Are you under the impression that Air Canada only employs easterners? Would you have preferred to see the Houston based (25% AA owned) Canadi>n take over Air Canada?

Greetings from the far east(toronto), crj-900
 
Guest

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sat Feb 15, 2003 7:31 am

Aaaaaaaaah......be still my Canadi>n heart!

I personally have a very strong emotional connection to the late great
Canadi>n Airlines International. I guess you can say I was literally weaned
on all things CP.

Allow me to tell you my story.

My dear late father joined Canadian Pacific airlines in the late 1950's right out of university, where he worked his way up the CP ladder to an executive position in the finance and marketing departments. He was VERY much a pro-CP kind of guy, and he, like many other Canadian Pacific employees, had a very strong love and loyalty of this carrier. Dad also was stationed at various CP destinations worldwide, where he managed the set-up and subsequent day-to-day ops of local stations. He loved the travel and time spent around the globe.

My dear late mother joined CP 2 years after my father as a flight attendant.
She worked "the line" for about 5 years, ending up as an in-charge FA. I have photos of my mom in her old CP uniform, and she was an absolute knockout, if I do say so myself. She was offered a lucrative post as YVR base manager (cabin services), but turned it down as she had a great love of actual flying. My mother absolutely LOVED her career as a CP Stew, and with her seniority, flew many "exotic" routes, ie South Pacific, Asia (she especially enjoyed her layovers in Beijing) and South America. Lucky for her, she joined at the right time, as to be able to bid and hold international blocks.

"Till the one day when the lady met this fellow, and they knew it was much more than a hunch.....". Yes yes, as the "Brady Bunch" song goes, dad said he first saw my mother (in full CP stew uniform) in Australia. He said "she was a real looker!". He was returning home to YVR after being stationed in SYD; she was working the first class section where he was seated. Ohhhhhhhhhh! Dad always said he took one look at mom and fell "head over heels" at first sight. Unfortunately, mom, while acknowledging the fact that dad was, as she put it, "one hell of a good looking guy!" thought he was cocky, arrogant and full of himself. Besides, at the time, she thought he was a pax, and CP had a very strong policy about not fraternizing with the paying customers. Dad always said he acted this way because he was so nervous around my mother on that flight. Dad tried to "chat mom up". She was having none of that. Dad said he continually asked my mother for coffee, tea, drinks, anything so he could talk to her. Mom said she eventually said to him, "you do realize there are OTHERS on this flight?". LOL. Dad then told her he worked for CP; she demanded I.D (true!). Dad showed her the I.D. Mom was "intrigued, yet in a very reserved way". Dad offered to take her to dinner in YVR. She said, "we'll see". She was playing hard to get, and dad always said he was impressed by the fact she was not "a cow offering the milk for free!" LOL, this is how my parents told me and my siblings this tale.

Well, eventually dad softened mom up (he had his charm and suave ways about him!). They went out for dinner, and they both said it was true love on the first date. They "courted", yet were apart a lot as mom continued to fly her CP blocks, and dad went to Europe to be stationed in AMS for a while. Together, my parents dated "all over the world", as they utilized CP passes and travelled the CP route network. They said it was one of the best times of their lives. My dad, ever the CP guy, called my mother "Empress of my Heart", a name that he recited for the rest of their married life together. Eventually, they married, and honeymooned in Fiji and Tasmania (flights courtesy of CP!). By this time, dad was at YVR H.Q full time, and mom flew for a bit after giving birth to 3 of us, then happily left "the line" to raise her brood. But, as we shall see, mom never really got over her love of flying and aviation. It was in her blood, and dads too. Their common aviation gene was passed down to their offspring.

Growing up, to say CPAir was a huge part of our lives is an understatement.
We had CP plane models, posters, and everything else you can imagine in our home. Dad would always take us out to the CP hangar, where we would spend weekend days happily roaming around DC-8's. I remember how excited we were (and my parents) when CPAir acquired its first B-747-200, "Empress of
Canada". Later, we joined the Canadi>ners in welcoming the DC-10-30
aircraft to the "family". Mom "happened to get her hands on" a lot of CP cabin service items, much to the frustration of my father! He was always nervous when CP people came to our home, and made my mom "hide the loot". One thing though: the name "Air Canada" was never, ever to be spoken in our home. My parents were very loyal members of the CP Family, as almost all CP folk were. We kids would often tease our dad by mentioning AC, and he was bemused, to say the least. Mom kept all of her old FA uniforms, and my sister would love to dress up in them and play "stewardess". And my mom never tired of telling her offspring stories of her travels. Looking back, my parents were trying to instill in us the benefits and education/rewards offered by travel. We learned their lesson well.

My siblings and I had the wonderful and incomparable experience of seeing the world, a la CPAir. Family passes took us to Hawaii, Australia, Hong Kong, along with Amsterdam, Lisbon, etc. Those beautiful orange CP "Empresses of
Honolulu, Lisbon, Italy, Canada", etc., took us on many unforgettable journeys with our parents. Later, as we became teens, we set off on our own, and
CPAir was there to take us. Orange, indeed, was beautiful. The flights and on-board service was always superlative. Then again, do you think I was a wee bit biased? heheheheh.

I grew up seeing the growth and transformation of Canadian Pacific to
CPAir, then Canadian Pacific/Pacifique, and finally, Canadi>n Airlines International. One of my brothers joined Canadi>n in 1985, and worked his way from an FA to OSM (On-board service manager) to base manager, then director of FA Initial training. He is now, today, with Air Canada (oh, if mom and dad were alive to see that, and the buyout!). My oldest brother worked summers and part time as a CP "ramp rat" while attending university. Later, after university, dad got him a job at YVR H.Q, where he worked in the finance department for 2 years before leaving for a non-airline related career. My dad was a little disappointed at that.

My sister, much to my mothers delight, and my fathers displeasure (at first) joined Max Ward on his odyssey to transport charter pax in high style. She became a Wardair flight attendant in 1979, and flew "the line" for 6 years, then left the "line" to work in the YYZ office/hangar complex. She eventually worked her way up to director of Market Planning. My parents were very proud of her. Dad may have been a staunch CP man, but he had a lot of admiration and respect for Max Ward, seeing as how Ward was a Western Canadian Aviation Pioneer. With the 1988 buyout of Wardair by PWA, my sister was offered a job at Canadi>n in YYZ. My dad was very happy about this, and teased her that she ended up at the perfect airline after all. My sister left Canadi>n in 1990 to get married and raise her 2 sons.

In 1980, my mother, with most of her children grown and out of the nest,
became restless, and her mind returned to her flying days at CP. She discussed this with my dad, the result of which was that, for one year, my mom joined Canadi>n again. She just wanted to fly long enough to get it out of her system. She returned to "the line" and flew the CP wide-bodies B747-200 and DC-10-30. She was in heaven! All of us absolutely and without question supported her decision. My dad figured this way he could get out to the golf course and enjoy many and long games without her nagging him to spend more time with her!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy She absolutely enjoyed every moment of it. And good for her that she was able to return to her "passion", for my mother passed away in 1984.

My dad decided to retire from Canadi>n in 1988. He passed away in 1993, therefore did not live to see (nor did my mother) the Air Canada buyout of Canadi>n, which is perhaps a good thing.

Our parents left their children a rich legacy, of which Canadi>n was a significant component. When Canadi>n Airlines International proudly
unveiled their "Proud Wings" livery and slogan, my siblings and I flew to YVR for a special ceremony and function to celebrate the new image. Out parents were very much on our minds that evening, and we know they both would have been so happy and proud to have seen the return of "The Goose".
Needless to say, that evening was a very emotional one for myself and my brothers and sister. Our pride was the result of knowing that our parents played a significant role in the superlative reputation and image Canadi>n
enjoyed.

Sadly though, we and Canadi>n people knew the carrier was in deep deep trouble. But if there was ever a slogan that best summed up the collective spirit and pride of the Canadi>n people, "Proud Wings" was it. It may be difficult for those not in the aviation industry to comprehend, but Canadi>n really and truly was a family. A family which had been through numerous challenging and difficult times throughout their history, yet remained joined together and supportive of one another, and above all, they never lost faith or their love for their airline. I truly believe the bond amongst CP employees was by far stronger and deeper than that at Air Canada, for facing adversity and challenges together united the people of CP like nothing else did. But make no mistake about it, by no means did CP people consider themselves,
"the underdog". There was a certain "cachet" and "first class" feeling about being with CP. And for good reason, as the airline offered its passengers
what many feel was among the best service in the industry. By this time, Canadi>n Airlines International now represented a very rich mosaic of the Canadian aviation industry. Pacific Western Airlines, Wardair Canada Ltd., Eastern Provincial Airways, etc., were all now integrated into the Canadi>n system.

As for me, I had the opportunity to join Canadi>n in the mid-80's. I was out of university, and like my parents and siblings, had aviation in my blood. I spoke with my father about joining Canadi>n, and he was all for it. I wanted to fly the CP skies like my mom before me. However, seniority at CP being what it was, I realized I would never enjoy the blocks and pairings my mother did (somehow, Prince Rupert, Whitehorse, and the Canadi>n Shuttle did not
grab my attention or interest). So, happily and with no regret, I joined the YYZ based international charter carrier, Worldways. What a great little airline! Dad was pleased with this, as he felt Worldways posed no threat to CP! Plus, he felt there was definitely a "CP" connection there, as Worldways had purchased 4 of CP's DC-8-63's. He gave me his blessing.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy And actually, when I think of it, I was working the same aircraft my mom had worked at CP years ago. It was definitely a very good feeling. I had 5 great and fun-filled years, with great WG FA colleagues, and very good blocks that took me to Europe, Hawaii and South America (and we're talking 3-4-5, even 6 day layovers being the norm, unlike the 24 hour layovers that make up most FA blocks today).

Worldways ceased operations in 1990. Very sad time for all WG people. Today,
I am still lucky to be travelling the globe by working for a YYZ based global corporate meetings/events planning co. in 1998 and 1999, I even did quite a bit of business travelling with....yep...good ole Canadi>n! I flew one of the
last DC-10-30 flights in 1999 from YVR-YYZ.

And there, for what it's worth, is my "Canadi>n" story. I will be perfectly honest and state that I was deeply saddened by the AC buyout. It truly was the end of a very significant and special era in Canadian aviation history.
part of me was relieved that CP employees (for the most part) would not lose their jobs. However, "The Goose" and "Empresses" would be laid to rest, and
that upset me a great deal. Or perhaps the pride of the Goose lives on in the collective spirit of those ex-Canadi>n employees now at Air Canada. I like to think it does indeed.

So long, Canadi>n. Thanks for the lifetime of wonderful, exciting and heartwarming memories. You showed me the world, and for that I am indebted to you. And thanks for being very much a part of my family. To say I miss you is an understatement. I've said it before and I'll say it again, "Above and Beyond" was a marketing slogan attached to the wrong (AC) carrier. They are three words that, along with "Proud Wings" best sum up what Canadian Pacific Airlines/CPAir/Canadian Pacific-Pacifique and Canadi>n Airlines International were all about.

Cheers, and happy and safe flying!

And that's why I call myself, "Canadi>nBoy".
 
yow
Posts: 2125
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:00 am

Canadi>nBoy that was a wonderful story. Let me bump it back up to the top of the page so more people will have the chance to read it.

In case you didn't know there still is, at least for now, a single B732 still wearing the Proud Wings livery at Canadian North (which just happens to be the main competitor to my airline, First Air) lol.
 
AWspicious
Posts: 2780
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 7:47 am

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:33 am

Excellent read... As always. I always look forward to reading your posts, CdnLad.
In my opinion, the Proud Wings paint scheme was the best in the world. Taking a visual survey of my model airplane collection confirms my conviction. Other paint schemes may have nice colours and cool lines, but that flying goose design was just darn clever.
Sad....

Nevermind political correctness - Envision using your turn signals!
 
Guest

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:29 am

I flew CP DC10 for 13 hours from Vancouver to Taipei. That was a really long flight!
 
Britair
Posts: 900
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 3:50 am

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:16 pm

Canadi>nBoy, thank you for that brilliant post and heart felt insight into you and your family and the wonderful Canadi>n legacy. I share your sense of pride and loyalty and especially the family ties. Our family has Qantas as our bond, I remember the day I joined Qantas, joining "my dad's company", as being such a great day, dad was so proud. The day I told him I was quitting to join British Airways was not!!  Big grin Dad had worked for British Caledonian so never quite forgave BA for swallowing them up! (I know history sees it differently!!) So for me to move to to BA was not popular! These days it's fine, especially given Qantas' financial poisition vis a vis BA's! Dad loves to remind me  Smile

Anyways, just wanted to say thanks for a great read  Smile
 
NBC News1
Posts: 300
Joined: Thu May 31, 2001 11:16 am

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:07 am

I love CP. It was and is my alltime favorite airline.

I flew

Toronto-Montreal-Iqualuit-Nansivik (4 times)
Toronto-Vancouver(4 times)
Toronto-Ottawa(2 times)
Toronto-Miami
New York-Toronto
Toronto-Thunder Bay-Dryden
Winnipeg-Toronto
Edmonton-Grand Prairie-Fort St. John-Fort Nelson-Watson Lake
Kingston-Ottawa
Toronto-Chicago
Torono-Halifax

I also have collected a lot of stuff (including 70 different Canadian Airlines safety cards).

I will forever hate Air Canada for taking away my beloved Canadian Airlines
 
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yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:15 am

I will forever hate Air Canada for taking away my beloved Canadian Airlines

Don't blame AC. It was the completely incompetent CP mgmt that ran the airline into the ground that precipitated the AC takeover.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
AirCanadaMan
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2000 4:42 am

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:57 am

Sadly, C-GOPW, the only remaining plane in the Proud Wings scheme will be repainted sometime this winter/early spring.

Get your pictures while you can, those of you in YEG and YOW. (and obviously YZF, YFB)

 
Noise
Posts: 2011
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 1999 7:38 am

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 3:53 am

Guys I got a question, do you think there will ever be another FULL-SERIVCE airline like Canadi>n in Canada again, or will we forever have to live with AC and the low-cost Carriers? I really hope that one day, an airline like Canadi>n can be revived and counter Air Canada.
 
CP744
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2000 3:08 am

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:12 am

I think we may see C-GOPW #582 in the "Proud Wings" scheme for another year or so...
I believe we are only going to have 2 frames painted this year. The first one is C-GDPA #584.... It is in the paint shop right now and should be unveiled next week..... YYC get ready! Probably out of the paint shop on the 19th or 20th.


I just departed "OPW" this am to YZF and YCB... It did look great... Sorry, but I love the proud wings scheme.....


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As far as the thread goes, I have far to many memories of Canadi>n to mention.... It is sad, although inevitably, that Canadi>n is no longer with us. I only hope that we are not relegated to see only ZIP, Jazz, and Westjet at most domestic airports soon.....
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:19 am

do you think there will ever be another FULL-SERIVCE airline like Canadi>n in Canada again, or will we forever have to live with AC and the low-cost Carriers?

Depends how you define "full service". Given that AC is cutting back meal service, I would argue that AC mainline will soon be indistinguishable from the so-called LCC's.

What's wrong with LCC's anyway? They're cheap, friendly & they fly metal. What more do you need?

Neil
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
CP744
Posts: 192
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:20 am

do you think there will ever be another FULL-SERIVCE airline like Canadi>n in Canada again, or will we forever have to live with AC and the low-cost Carriers?

personally, I think we have seen the last of full service carriers, AC will flourish as an international carrier from YVR and YYZ... maybe YUL.... Domestically we will see WS, ZIP, Jazz, Canjet, etc....

We may see some "regional carriers" that have full service.... like Canadian North is at this time.... I guess the other question would be what is a full service carrier????
 
JAL
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:28 am

It would be great to see the reviving of a great airline like Canadian!!!!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
AC320
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:13 am

I never had a good flight on Canadian, and so I wasn't too sad when they went away.
fuddle duddle
 
Noise
Posts: 2011
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:28 am

What's a full service airline? An airline like Canadi>n or Roots Air was, or Air Canada withour the meal cut-backs is what I consider a full service airline.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 7:08 am

Frankly, I see little difference in service betw the so-called full service carriers and the LCC's.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Dash8King
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 7:19 am

like Canadian North is at this time

Will Canadian North stop serving meals any time soon? Both CDN and First Air serve meals on flights that are like an hour long but I don't think passengers would mind if they didn't for a better price. CP744 is CDN North profitable?
 
Samurai 777
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:21 am

I've always had more of a loyalty towards CP then AC. CP Air, then later, Canadian, always usually had the better people and service, both on the ground and in the air.

It's such a shame that CP was not able to modernize its fleet and manage itself better financially.

May the Proud Wings live on in our memories.
 
YXDFan
Posts: 189
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 9:07 am

You think the Air Canada takeover hasn't affected business? You're dead wrong...

At my home airport of YMM (Fort McMurray, Alberta), we were served by 3 airlines pre-merger... Canadian Regional, AirBC, and WestJet which had just started up. CP was flying a mix of F28s and Dash 8s, AirBC strictly Dash 8s, and WestJet 737s.

Post merger, AC Regional (later Jazz) capacity was brought in line by making the 2 daily AirBC flights into an additional flight for 5 roundtrips to Edmonton/Calgary daily. WestJet was at 2 daily.

At this point in time, AC Jazz has lost so much business to WestJet that they've cut one flight and (along with so many other airports) eliminated jet service.

I use the Thursday evening departures from Fort McMurray as the litmus test. These are arguably the busiest flights of the week heading south as many of the people on contract for the oilsands plants fly home on Thursday nights. The WestJet flight is full 95% of the time, Air Canada Jazz boards about 15-20 passengers onto its Dash 8.

Expect this number to plummet even further now that they've uncerimoniously fired local station manager Nick DeHoog. Nick has been in this position with PWA/CP/AC for 36 years and was given 1 weeks notice to pack up his office as they will no longer require his services. Nick's customer friendly attitude is the only thing that kept many frequent flyers with AC Jazz after the merger and now many of us (yours truly included) refuse to fly AC if there's another option.

Why all this? Its about the attitude.

One of you asked if we'd rather have seen AC taken over by CP which was owned by Texas-based AA? The answer... absolutely. Texans are friendly, outgoing, no-nonsense people... the kind of people that Western Canadians are and can relate to. Toronto and Central Canada is home to a smug "we're the most important" attitude with little focus on keeping people happy or even relating with them.

Central Canadians are arrogant, and their airline (Air Canada) shows that arrogance through and through. That's why we're going to WestJet in droves.

A classic quote from my father when he found out his vacation to Jamaica included flights on Air Canada: "Why the hell would I give those assholes a chance to screw up my vacation before I even get there?"

Every time I see an AC employee with the proud wings pin or a B737 pilot, I thank them for their service and tell them how much so many of us miss their fine airline. The usual response is a sigh, a nod, and a "yeah, we do too".

Screw Robert Milton.
Screw Air Canada.


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cch362
Posts: 135
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:54 am

Canadi>n never had a chance against Air Canada after the Canadian airline industry was "deregulated."

For a long time, government-owned Air Canada received preferential treatment in getting routes and franchises in both domestic- and international markets. After "deregulation", which was patterned after the U.S. (but executed half-heartedly by Ottawa), Air Canada was forced to turn over many of its Pacific routes to CP Air. Similarly, CP Air got the monopoly to serve the North, which was not deregulated. Those unfortunately did not level the playing field which was so heavily tilted in favor of Air Canada.
 
delta-flyer
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:47 pm

What a great story, Canadi>nBoy!

My first flight on CPAir was in 1969, as a college student, when I got a summer job on Vancouver Island. I subsequently moved to BC, and lived there until 1979. During that 10-year period, CP Air was my airline of choice.

There was a noticeable, distinctive "culture" onboard every flight that was very different from Air Canada. CP really captured the essence of the West, with a rugged, straight-forward yet friendly attitude.

Anyone interested in CP Air should read "Bush Pilot with a Briefcase" by Ronald Keith. It is a riveting biography of Grant McConachie, the airline's founder, whose character the airline emulated until its demise.

Cheers,
Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 16, 2003 3:32 pm

Canadi>n never had a chance against Air Canada after the Canadian airline industry was "deregulated."

Not true. Canadian's problems were self-inflicted, from an inappropriate fleet, to purchasing WD.

After "deregulation", which was patterned after the U.S. (but executed half-heartedly by Ottawa), Air Canada was forced to turn over many of its Pacific routes to CP Air.

Huh? AC had no Pacific routes prior to deregulation. CP had all Pacific rights.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
CP744
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:30 am

Dash8King

Will Canadian North stop serving meals any time soon? Both CDN and First Air serve meals on flights that are like an hour long but I don't think passengers would mind if they didn't for a better price. CP744 is CDN North profitable?

I don't think we will stop serving meals on our flights, I believe our company feels that meal service on most flights is a desired if not necessary service, considering the realities of Northern air travel.

Our pricing structure changed dramatically last summer to reflect the increased savings realized by becoming an independent airline. A oneway fare from YEG to YZF drop to $245.00. Previously it use to cost, don't quote me as I don't remember exactly, approximately $450.00 oneway. It was a bit less if you purchased a round trip and booked 14 days in advance. We no longer have the restrictive fare rules that use to exist.

Are we making money? I believe we broke even in 2002, or close to even. we had what might be called an extraordinary year in actual start up costs, as 2002 was the first full year as an independent...
 
Dash8King
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:20 am

Thanks CP744 for your response. I wish both CDN North and First air were public companies so I could find that info out. I always fly First Air because I get free $40.00 tickets but the rest of my family chooses CDN North and are upset when they have to book First Air (maybe cause I am on board?). You guys made travel in the north cheap if it wasn't for you we would we would all be paying a thousand dollars to go on a 1500 km trip (except me).
 
Guest

RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:16 am

Chc362 wrote:

"Canadi>n never had a chance against Air Canada after the Canadian airline industry was "deregulated."

"For a long time, government-owned Air Canada received preferential treatment in getting routes and franchises in both domestic- and international markets. After "deregulation", which was patterned after the U.S. (but executed half-heartedly by Ottawa), Air Canada was forced to turn over many of its Pacific routes to CP Air. Similarly, CP Air got the monopoly to serve the North, which was not deregulated. Those unfortunately did not level the playing field which was so heavily tilted in favor of Air Canada."

Thank you for posting this. Some here are being somewhat tunnel-visioned in
expressing the fact that it was exclusively "bad CP management" that derailed
the carrier. Well, to be perfectly honest (and I've stated this before) there
were undoubetdly some very incompetent people at CP, and subsequently ill-advised business plans were executed. No doubt about that. However, Ottawa, from day one of CP's existence, was incredibly biased towards the crown carrier (understatement). Every route CP had, every expansion CP implemented was the result of long and vicious BATTLES with Parliament Hill for approval. There were many instances when and where CP was treated like a leper by Ottawa, who had their own financial interests in AC, and seeing it flourish at any cost, including the fiscal health of Canadian Pacific.

To be perfectly fair though, I will say that one (of many) things I and others questioned about CP (Canadi>n) management in the later years was their inability to see that the entire CP system HAD to be revamped and downsized AFTER receiving Gov't (reluctantly) financial "bailouts". The way I saw it, CP in the later years was applying the "band-aid" principle to their way of thinking and their short and long-term business strategies. It was a little absurd to think that CP could continue to operate on the same scale it had in the past (up to around 1985/86). It simply couldn't. Air Canada had grown immensely, and was indeed a formidable opponent. Times, and the Canadian aviation industry had irrevocably changed (ie hence the end of Wardair Canada, who simply could not obtain the ideal slot times at YYZ/YVR to offer pax frequency and show a profit on Max's ambitious (and ill-advised) Canadian domestic expansion). Times had changed, certain CP minds didn't, and were still in
a "70's/80's headspace.

In short, by 1989, the red flags and warning signs were clearly marked on the
CP hangar wall. In order to survive, drastic measures would have had to have been implemented to re-organize. For instance, The eastern division of the Canadi>n Shuttle (YYZ-YOW-YUL) was a huge money loser, and in no way could compete with AC's "Rapidair" network. The demographics simply did NOT support TWO major carriers operating these routes. Plus, YUL and YOW was definitely Air Canada terri CP's pride and, again, blind-spots would serve as the catalyst for their eventual demise.

There are many who feel CP should have diverted their time, money and energy to strengthening/augmenting their Western Canadian network, where a very strong pax loyalty base would ensure success. By focusing on this futile battle with AC, CP quite literally allowed Westjet to slip in through the back door. CP, by this time, was too far gone in terms of "beating Air Canada" to have the sensibility to "know when to fold em", and shift gears.

Anyway, just my thoughts
Canadi>nBoy
YYZ
 
CP744
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:28 am

What's a full service airline? An airline like Canadi>n or Roots Air was, or Air Canada without the meal cut-backs is what I consider a full service airline.

Does a full service carrier require a customer loyalty program (FF) airport lounges, several classes of service, meal service, etc. All provided at no extra charge, or has air travel changed forever?

Has technology really changed the way business is done? Are business trips a thing of the past?

Is personal security really that big a issue to the travelling public? Does it stop Mom & Dad and the kids from travelling to Disney World (Land), Hawaii, etc.??

Personally, I think most air travellers see air travel as a necessity for longer hauls, but only want to pay for the trip, and not all the extras that certainly added to the cost of the airfare. Hence the success of the LCC's.

Perhaps the next two paragraphs should be a new thread?????

But I do want to add that I do believe that the most significant controllable cost to the aircarriers are their labour costs. The "new players" in the industry are always going to have an advantage in this area as they don't have binding contracts to follow at startup and can negotiate wage settlements that will work within their financial plan and capabilities.

Just a note on short hauls, with the increase in fees and taxes the short hop seems to becoming to a end, for most practical people.
We now are paying: airfare, surcharge on fuel, surcharge on insurance, NAVCANADA fee, AIF fees, Security fee and the famous GST. Being from Alberta, I'm sorry...Is there PST applicable to all this?? I also no that not ALL airlines are charging ALL these extra fees, but most are.
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Sun Feb 23, 2003 7:59 am

I have done some reading and I now can say for sure that for almost all of Canadi>n's life they were fighting an uphill battle, its amazing that they lasted as long as they did, the employees of Canadi>n never gave up...Canadi>n did everything they could to stay in the air, unfortunatly it wasnt enouf, and they were eventually swallowed up my their rival, Air Canada. Maybe some day in the future someone would revive the once great airline, but there aint much chance of that, but dont mean it wont happen!

"Canadi>n is gone for good, but lives on in the hearts of Canadians."

CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
GuyBetsy1
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:09 pm

I was a F/A with CP way back in 89. I was there barely a month when CP decided to buy out Wardair and that, my friends, was the lethal mistake that CP took which it never recovered.

Even when AA decided to invest in CP, AC fought it all the way to Parliament Hill. I don't quite remember the details but AC basically did all it could to drag the process out as long as it could.

When CP was floundering, the government didn't absolutely nothing to assist. CP didn't want money. All it wanted was the permission to raise foreign ownership from 25% to 49%. It needed more capital from American Airlines. But Ottawa said no. And that was the end.

AC basically bought over CP for less than a couple of B747-400 aircrafts. Now we have one airline with no major competitor in Canada and service has dropped and fares have risen.

Australians had their turn to say something when Ansett was going the same way of CP 2 years ago and people were basically saying to let it go... well, guess what? They're facing the same problems we are now.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Tue Feb 25, 2003 12:43 am

When CP was floundering, the government didn't absolutely nothing to assist.

Not true. The Cdn govt purchased 5 ex-WD 313's from CP for $150M. Many saw this as direct aid to a private sector company.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:15 am

I had the pleasure of flying CP-Air a few times when I was very young from Toronto to Lisbon. I don't recall the service on those flights. I do remember flying back from Heathrow to Toronto on a Canadian Airlines DC-10 and the service was possibly the most friendly I had ever experienced. There was an unquestionable warmth which others have alluded to in this thread.

I do however feel that the difference in culture at Air Canada and Canadian Airlines had more to do with the fact that Air Canada was a crown corporation for so long, rather than it being an "central" based airline. This does more to damage employee morale than any regional aspects being mentioned. This can be seen with many other airlines worldwide, and it takes a long time for employees to change their attitudes. Just look at Virgin vs. BA as a prime example. Virgin, just like Westjet has always tried to focus on customer friendly attitudes and a fun spirit in their employees. Do you think Air Canada or British Airways ever did that?
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:40 am

Nuno, BA has terrific inflight service, among the best in the world among intl carriers.

I don't think BA vs VS is a good analogy for AC vs CP.

AC and CP both had/have good inflight service. CP failed because of it's poor mgmt...no other reason.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Canadi>n Airlines Intl.

Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:44 am

Neil, I would agree that BA has excellent inflight service. I also would say that Air Canada has excellent inflight service. What I am referring to is the general resentment towards an attitude that seems to be prevalent among Air Canada employees (according to many people), and I've seen a similar reaction towards BA from many people too, saying their attitudes were cold. Is it true? And if so, could it be because of the fact both airlines were state run entities? This seems to be common among many state run companies and airlines are no different.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster