777D
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NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:26 am

I am curious why didn't NWA look into the 767 and 777?

It would seem that these two types would perfectly into there fleet.

They could use 767 and 777 variants to replace their older 747's and DC-10's.

They would have the combination of 777 and 747 on their Asian routes and have 767s on domestics and Hawaii routes.

Also the 767/777 on their European network.

To seem it would have seemed a no brainer since they have flown Boeing metal for many years across the Pacific.

Did NWA approach Boeing regarding this issue?


Thanks

 
Trvlr
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:29 am

Most likely NWA did approach Boeing about the 767/777. Airbus just won the order instead of Boeing.

Aaron G.
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:44 am

Look for NWA to order the A340 sometime this year... You heard it here first.
 
aa61hvy
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:44 am

I thought NW debated between the A330 and 777
Go big or go home
 
USAIRWAYS321
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:03 am

By Maizblu_757's logic...Look for many airlines to order many planes within the next 5 years...you heard it from me first :p

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gigneil
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:06 am

Search around... there's a detailed explanation of why they chose the A330 and not the 767 and 777 from not too terribly long ago.

NW is a huge cargo carrier and one of the requirements was a 20t cargo along with about 300 pax and bags on transatlantic runs. The 767 would certainly not fit that bill and the 777 would be overkill.

The biggest straw was that their A333 order could be converted to A332s if they needed. If they had gone with the 772, and needed to downsize the gauge, they would have also had to order 767s - a whole different fleet type. Arguably, not a good idea.

N

[Edited 2003-02-18 01:10:24]
 
United777
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:32 am

I could see NWA getting some A346 aircraft in the next two-three years.
I think NWA should be an all airbus fleet except the 744's. Instead of the 753 they should ordered the A321.
 
9v-svc
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:35 am

Besides A330 is a newer aircraft then the 767 . The common cockpit with the A320 is a big plus too .
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:39 am

Read this thread here http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1008934/ for more information.

You can argue all you want, but each carrier has their reasoning behind why they choose the product that they did. Each carrier doesn't have to operate the same aircraft. It all comes down to the needs of each airline, the capability of the aircraft, and the price determined by the seller.

As for ordering A340's??? Not anytime soon? A carrier that is deep in debt and needs to cut $1.5 Billion from annual costs isn't about to embark on new capital expenditures such as the A340.
 
aq737
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:41 am

United 777- the 321 is a competitor for the Boeing 737-900, not the 757-300. If you had to compare it to a 757, you would compare it to a 752, not -300. The -300 is a much larger aircraft and is used to replace the DC-10-40s on domestic routes, and then the DC-10-30s on Domestic, while the 330s will replace the DC-10-30s on Atlantic.

Basically, on a one-for-one basis, the 330 will replace a DC-10-30. The DC-10-30 will then replace a DC-10-40 on domestic and Hawaii. Then a 753 will then replace the DC-10-30.

Aq737
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:55 am

Northwest got very, VERY sweet deals from Airbus and at the time that it had placed a massive order for narrow bodies, the 737-NG family was years away from becoming reality. That's also why UA ordered the A320 family in 1992 as opposed to 737's. The A320/A319 are the backbone of the NW domestic fleet and pilot commonality is a big reason. It's interesting though that NW and its European partner, KLM have very little fleet commonality. True, they both are operators of the 747-400's but they could achieve greater efficiencies in term of shared maintenance had they tried to build similar fleets.

ContinentalEWR
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:59 am

For KLM & NW to share maintenance, it really wouldn't make that big a difference except anywhere but their long-haul aircraft. It doesn't matter what you are flying domestically when your aircraft are on a different continent.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:59 am

Maizenblu is this just a guess, or do you have some reasonable proof that they will order it?

I have heard they want to get the 777 too, but I haven't heard anything for fact.

Oh... while we are at it... I gotta meet the weekly quota for THIS too often asked question. what will Northwest replace their DC-9s with?
 
brianhames
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:06 am

The 777 would look super sexy in NWA colors...
 
gigneil
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:11 am

I think it'd be very entertaining if they got 777s at this point. It'd make absolutely no sense given their current fleet plan.

They said they'd study the 772LR and 773ER vs the A345 and A346, but that the 772ER had no chance.

KLM will also be operating the A330... so, since that's gonna be NW's primary transatlantic fleet type, it will work out just fine. KLM will be able to maintain them if need be.

Hah and since I think reducing total numbers of different fleets is important, I'll weigh in with my weekly vote for the A318, but wouldn't cry if they got the 717.

N
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:28 am

Look for NWA to order the A340 sometime this year

For an airline which is in need of $1500000000 in price cuts, and who is a sucker for PW engines.........
well, I hope you're not holding your breath.



The DC-10-30 will then replace a DC-10-40 on domestic and Hawaii. Then a 753 will then replace the DC-10-30

NW's 753s will not be replacing D10-30s to Hawaii as the 753s are not certified to the proper ETOPS specifications and lack the range to reach HNL from some of NW's nonstop origin airfields.

Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:33 am

They said *** that the 772ER had no chance.

They didnt say this... they said the 772ER would have been overkill for their Atlantic operations.

NW's apparent disinterested in the A343 (which they cancelled/converted) combined with the fact that KL is to begin operating GE-powered 772ERs (and potentially either of the 777NGs in the future) actually gives the 777 a significant chance with NW........ though I wonder if mass teleportation will be perfected before they actually make another new fleet decision  Sad
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gigneil
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:34 am

While Concordeboy brings up two excellent points, the first could go either way.

Neither the pretty new 777s or the pretty new A340s offer Pratt engines.

The A340 is, however, the only of the two without an exclusive engine contract. PW _could_ develop an engine for the A345 and A346. It just remains to be seen if they will.

Honestly, I think PW should shake off the drawings for the PW4173 and get that out there too, but they sure haven't called to ask me for my opinion.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

N
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:00 am

PW _could_ develop an engine for the A345 and A346

PW also could offer the PW4098 on a 772ER... but no airline has thus far ordered that option as opposed to switching in favor of the GE90.

With 196,000lbs of thrust pushing their birds; NW could have the most powerful (and theoretically longest-ranged) 772ERs in the world should they opt for that route.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
gigneil
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:04 am

Which leads to the question of what's wrong with the PW4098 that makes people not want to order it?

It may just be that no big Pratt customers have placed new orders for 777s lately.

N
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:22 am

Actually... all 777 customers except BA, LY, and KE have flocked to the GE90 to satisfy their >92,000lb thrust needs; so there may not be anything in particular wrong with that type.

Also, no new carrier (that I can think of anyway) have chosen PW since the 777NGs have been available. All such carriers that PW has consulted about a PW4098-powered 772ER have either been past customers (NH, UA) or new potentials who chose otherwise (LA).
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:30 am

ConcordeBoy:

You forgot VN.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:46 am

ConcordeBoy: You forgot VN

Actually, I didnt.... chose to exclude them because they'd have been a moot example to the point I was trying to make: even though they did choose the PW4090 recently, they also chose the GE90-94B right alongside it to do their transpacific and longer-longhaul work.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
USAIRWAYS321
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:47 pm

Glad to support, I'm here anytime for your convenience.

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gigneil
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:49 pm

Anyone that thinks its impossible for NW to get A340's is cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

Anyone that thinks it may not be soon, is probably right.

N
 
USAIRWAYS321
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:51 pm

I never said it's impossible, it actually is fairly likely eventually, but not anytime this year.

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maiznblu_757
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:55 pm

Yea, according to my prediction, it said they will announce it this year. It will not be flying for NWA until about 06.
 
USAIRWAYS321
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:59 pm

I still don't think it will happen. I don't feel that any airline is in a position to announce a substantial order except maybe Southwest or AirTran. The playing field is too uneven amongst the majors and things can change drastically overnight as it stands right now. Airlines are wise to wait for some stability to arrive before placed aircraft orders.

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gigneil
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 1:11 pm

Just because I enjoy speculation like this...

What sorts of A340s does youir prediction forecast, Maiznblu?

N
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 1:21 pm

Its kinda foggy, but, I think that its looking like the A340-300.  Big grin
 
gigneil
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 1:28 pm

Whoa. You are kidding, right?

N
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 1:35 pm

I wouldn't doubt NW getting the A340 eventually and maybe also the 777 for Trans Pac flights to replace *Groan... another weekly discussion* the 742s which are some of the most recent built.

I just don't see them announcing or ordering them this year with their financial state.
 
gigneil
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 1:40 pm

Why would they get the A340 and the 777?

N
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 3:36 pm

"Look for NWA to order the A340 sometime this year... You heard it here first"



Seems as though I heard that in the early 90's... sorry.. they beat you to the gun on that one.  Smile Sorry, but I wont believe that until i hear it from the horse's mouth.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 3:48 pm

Well, they cancelled that order. This is the 2nd coming. This time they will follow through.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 4:30 pm

Well, they cancelled that order. This is the 2nd coming. This time they will follow through.


What makes you so sure:

The A343's lack of competitive thrust/climb/power-to-weight ratio?

The lackluster sales and complete range overkill (for NW's business model) of the A345?

Or is it perhaps the hefty overweightiness of the A346?  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
gigneil
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 5:12 pm

Heh its hardly "hefty overweightiness". And the plane is more efficient than targeted, so its meeting all its performance expectations.

The A345's sales are brisk compared to the 772LR's.

There should be improvements to the A346 wing shortly to improve its "hefty overweightiness".

N
 
Airbus Lover
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:50 pm

Aahhh our weekly NWA fleet replacement post!!! and somehow related to why they didnt choose Boeing over Airbus... well.. I aint saying anything!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:21 pm

The A345's sales are brisk compared to the 772LR's.

Actually, if you'll look at the 13 sales to actual airlines over the 6 years the A345's been available versus the 5 sales to actual airlines over the 3 years the 772LR has been available..... they're not too far off.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
raggi
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:26 am

Concordeboy, since when did VN order the GE90-94B?


raggi
Stick & Rudder
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:06 am

Raggi:

VN didn't order the GE90 per se, but they are leasing two 772ERs from ILFC with the GE90 engine. VN's first 772ER will be from ILFC.
 
raggi
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:27 am

okey, thanx!

I don`t see why they didn`t get them all with the GE90-94B instead of the clearly less capable Pratt.
well, well


raggi
Stick & Rudder
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:09 am

It's simple! Money talks!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:56 am

I don`t see why they didn`t get them all with the GE90-94B instead of the clearly less capable Pratt.

NRT and CDG are also to be major 777 routes for them, and they dont require much more than 90K-lbs thrust. Also, because PW4090 is lighter than the GE90-94B, there'll be less non-revenue-earning weight to tote around on those routes. The GE90 powered birds will serve LAX and probably SFO, via TPE.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:29 am

**Why would they get the A340 and the 777?**

Ask Singapore, Air France, Cathay why they did

A340s for longer range European routes and mideast if they can get that far with perhaps an A340-500 out of DTW

777s for less dense Asian routes DTW and MSP
 
B-HOP
Posts: 702
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:35 pm

SQ is dumping 343.

Concordeboy: -

I know you get very excited about 772LR and GE engines, but please, don't hard sell it here.
Live life to max!!!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:41 pm

yeah, I just cant stop; ya know, since everyone who chats on airliners.net is in the market to buy one....  Insane
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
donder10
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:55 pm

Even the Airbus site says that the 343 is designed for routes over 5,000miles or so!Flying it from MAD/ATH/IST to LHR can't be too efficient.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NWA 767 And 777?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 3:39 am

Ask Singapore, Air France, Cathay why they did

Dont forget EK and CA
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!

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