flyingbronco05
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New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:11 am

American Launching Only Orange County to New York JFK Nonstops

New Daily Service Starts April 6; Boeing 757 Service Features 'More Room Throughout Coach'

"FORT WORTH, Texas, Feb. 20 /PRNewswire/ -- On April 6, American Airlines begins offering the only nonstop service from Orange County, Calif., to New York's JFK Airport. Flights will operate three times a day Sunday through Friday and twice a day on Saturdays."

More at: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030220/dath040_1.html
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
travelin man
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:18 am

Didn't they try this before? AA is going to have quite a few non-stops from JFK to the LA area now -- LAX, LGB, and SNA. Is there really that much demand, or are they trying to siphon off some of B6's business? (And CO's, for that matter).
 
AM
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:28 am

Now that's a complicated takeoff. A 757 departure from a 5700ft runway with fuel for a 2450mi flight at an airport where high temperatures are normal. I bet full power and flaps 20 are gonna be required for all JFK flights.
"... for there you have been and there you will long to return."
 
JohnJ
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:30 am

"Now that's a complicated takeoff. A 757 departure from a 5700ft runway with fuel for a 2450mi flight at an airport where high temperatures are normal. I bet full power and flaps 20 are gonna be required for all JFK flights."

I'm not sure if they still do, but I know Continental used to operate 757 service from Newark to Orange County. That's about the same distance. Perhaps they'll do as US Airways used to when they operated 737s from PIT-SNA and load restrict them.
 
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STT757
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 7:17 am

CO started out with a single daily nonstop 757 between EWR and SNA about 6-7 years ago, now they fly 2-3 daily nonstop 737-700 flights between EWR and SNA.

Other carriers that have flown (nonstop) from JFK-SNA in the past (all with 757s), HP, TWA and AA.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:27 am

I doubt American really needs up to three daily nonstop flights from JFK to SNA. This is likely to get cut down to one, and then eventually dropped. AA is edging closer to Chapter 11 and you wonder why? Yes, Continental has three daily nonstops to SNA (all 737-700's) but CO has a HUB in Newark and can fill those planes more effectively and efficiently than American, which does not have a hub at JFK. TWA had one daily nonstop in this market until American took them over. It did well. I just don't understand it.

I won't hold my breath for this route to survive past the summer. Three 757's a day? No way. Three 737-800's, maybe.

I don't think that American or HP for that matter ever flew JFK-SNA nonstop.

ContinentalEWR
 
aa61hvy
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:39 am

Keep in mind the 757 is way-over powered. It shouldn't have too much trouble getting off. I was in a 757 from HUX-DFW the runway was about 6,000 feet I think, we got off with no problem.
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ont 737
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 11:02 am

ContinentalEWR,
You would be surprised what routes HP has operated from SNA. Besides New York, we have had scheduled service to SEA, RNO, and the recently cut SMF flights.

Well at least they didn't schedule another 6:45 departure. Due to NIMBYs no plane is allowed to take off before 7AM, however they can push back before that time. So that is why there are 9 flights scheduled to push back at 6:45AM. So basically its just one big race to get your plane out first because if you are the last of the nine to push back you'll probably be blocked at the gate and a long line to wait to take off. And on top of that once a plane pushes back there will always be RON a/c that is being towed into it. Things get so crowded they'll use 19L as a taxiway. (you also don't want to see what the security lines can look like)
 
flyguy1
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 11:25 am

There are no current nonstops on JFK-SNA, though 3 flights may be to much, I am sure there will be demand for the route. Most major cities on the west coast are served from JFK by AA, this is just another choice for these customers.
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
Guest

RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 11:49 am

Keep in mind SNA has FEDEX A310's and the occasional A300 to MEM. I know that there is more flexibility with a freighter, but, the 757 can handle that runway easily.
 
milemaster
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 11:58 am

Can and does handle it easily.

It's the most incredible 757 take off roll from any US airport I know of. It's also a noise abatement airport too.. which makes it extra thrilling. I've made the DFW-SNA SNA-DFW R/T monthly.. it's awesome.

I do agree however.. I suspect there will be some load restrictions. Fully loaded with PAX and fuel for transcon on a 5700ft runway in the middle of summer..think about it.
 
flyboy7974
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:00 pm

ont737, do you work for america west? i was surprised that america west did not return to the sna-rno market after aa dropped it after the reno air purchase. i have always heard it is a heavily traveled market. ua claims to have a huge chunk of those pax as they connect through sfo to rno, and sw probably as well. i was disappointed that hp also cut smf, but those slots now are used for the added rj frequencies to phx, and the additional las flight.
 
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STT757
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:26 pm

HP had a "kind of" hub in SNA, they had two daily 757-200 nonstops from JFK-SNA. Late Eighties-early Ninties.

AA flew briefly around '95-'97 JFK-SNA, it lasted a few months.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ont 737
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 2:12 pm

Yeah I'm with HP. Everyone was sad to see the SMF flights go away. It seemed like the final step in our gradual downsizing. Now we are just a spoke city like everyone else. We used to have 27 or so flights a day in our prime, but now we are down to 19 just to LAS and PHX. (4 of them RJs) The SMF flight did very well for us, but to compete with 5 WN dailies, their connections beyond SMF, and their costs would have been a loosing battle I think. You can tell that we used to be big in SNA by how much ticket counter space we have. We have 2x as much as WN and UA. Only AA rivals us in that department. Another thing. The CRJs do not take up a normal jet slot at SNA. When I asked my Sup why we didn't get the CR7s he said its "because they would have to be parked at a gate (with a jetbridge) and would take up one of our jet slots". Our CRJs go out of gate 1A off to the side of terminal B.
 
kevi747
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 2:40 pm

I am a F/A with AA. I LOVE to watch PAX faces on a SNA takeoff. No one ever listens to the CPT's PA about the unusual T/O and then they all look at us with terror-filled eyes when the engines power back from full-throttle to near-idle a couple thousand feet off the ground. And then the nose falls and it feels like your on a rollercoaster. Whoooo!!! FUN!!!
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert
 
Trvlr
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:03 pm

I think AA could do very well on SNA-JFK. SNA is an astronomically high-yielding market. However, I'm not sure 3x daily flights, at least at first, is the best course of action.

Aaron G.
 
pshifrin
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:06 pm

Just for the record, AA used to have JFK-SNA non-stop, i flew that route to visit my friend in 1995, and of course it was a 757.
 
FATFlyer
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sat Feb 22, 2003 12:12 am

Starting the route with 3 flights per day may look a little high, but don't forget we're dealing with slots. AA did not like JB holding slots at LGB. If AA found 3 slots at SNA I would think they would need to use them or lose them. Especially since SNA has had a waiting list for years.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
JohnJ
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sat Feb 22, 2003 12:16 am

"I am a F/A with AA. I LOVE to watch PAX faces on a SNA takeoff. No one ever listens to the CPT's PA about the unusual T/O and then they all look at us with terror-filled eyes when the engines power back from full-throttle to near-idle a couple thousand feet off the ground. And then the nose falls and it feels like your on a rollercoaster. Whoooo!!! FUN!!!"

It is fun. And a heavily-loaded 757 is the best aircraft to experience "The Orange County Takeoff" on. However, it's not much fun when you don't expect it. It's a given it will happen at SNA. For some reason, US Airways did this style of takeoff on a flight I took recently from PIT to BDL on a 757. It was snowing heavily in Pittsburgh. After deicing, we pulled onto the runway, and the pilot spooled up the engines while keeping the wheel brakes engaged. He finally released the brakes and we rocketed down the runway, took off using very little runway and climbed very steeply. Shortly the throttles were brought back sharply giving the "roller coaster" effect. I enjoy that effect on a nice sunny day over Newport Beach. On a snowy night in the middle of the clouds above Pittsburgh with no advance warning, it's disconcerting.
 
besttravel
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sat Feb 22, 2003 1:19 am

Please remember that AA has MRTC and carries a few less passengers --which translates into a couple less pounds -- than a standard 757 configuration. Also, the 757 was built for STOL, which makes it ideal for SNA operations.
Here in Chicago, I am amazed every time I see an ATA 757-300 -- jammed to the gills with passengers and baggage for vacation in Florida -- jump off the short runway at MDW and climb to 6,000ft in no time. Even with the noise abatement, AA should not have too many issues with operating that 757 out of SNA to JFK. I wouldn't expect full capacity on any of those flights anyways.
Best Regards,

Matt
Best Travel
 
flyboy7974
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sat Feb 22, 2003 5:14 am

ont737, what is hp doing then in sna to fill in from the lost smf flights? if the rj doesn't count as a jet slot, is hp leasing their slots to somebody else? i flew into sna on hp last christmas just to try the sna takeoff, prc-phx-las-sna. bur is my home airport, but i thought i would give sna a try, i wish bur would do what sna did and build a new terminal, but the ninnys up in bur don't want the added traffic.
 
ont 737
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sat Feb 22, 2003 5:39 am

Flyboy7974 ,
I think we are just loosing the slots, but don't take my word on it. My guess is that they are going to Southwest. Southwest is grabbing every slot they can get their hands on right now. The word is that they are going to add more flights to SMF, LAS and PHX this summer.
 
ont 737
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sun Feb 23, 2003 10:00 am

I was talking to some AA 757 pilots today at the airport and they were pretty confident that a 757 could make the SNA-JFK without weight restrictions even in the summer. They just couldn't say enough about the type of a/c. One FO told me that Crandall once said that if he could trade every F100 and MD-80 for 757s he would and AA would be unstoppable.
 
haveric
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sun Feb 23, 2003 11:37 am

US also operates a 757 to PIT, and shortly will begin one daily 757 service to PHL
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sun Feb 23, 2003 1:25 pm

I want to issue a rare compliment to American for properly scheduling the arrival of Flight 271 (Daily/Dep JFK 1710 Arr SNA 2020).

A reoccurring problem with AA 1025 (ORD-SNA sked 2129 arrival) is diversion to LAX due to Oarnge County's curfew (2200/11:00PM local).

AA 1025 running +/- half hour late, it generally gets diverted to LAX, passengers bussed to SNA, resulting in equipment ferry LAX-SNA in time for morning departure. For some reason, I am under the impression this costs AA big MMoney.  Big grin

One FO told me that Crandall once said that if he could trade every F100 and MD-80 for 757s he would and AA would be unstoppable.

Wow, pretty bold statement.

Every 757 driver I have talked with swear by it...

JR FlyingTexan
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sun Feb 23, 2003 1:28 pm

A reoccurring problem with AA 1025 (ORD-SNA sked 2129 arrival) is diversion to LAX due to Oarnge County's curfew (2200/11:00PM local).

Sorry about the time screwup - make that AA1025 sked 2229 (10:29P) sked arrival from Chicago, OC curfew is 11:00P / 2300

JR

"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
CX747
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sun Feb 23, 2003 1:33 pm

The 757 is an outstanding aircraft with great performance and bottom line operating costs. Unfortunately, it does not have a "family" of aircraft like the 737 and A32X. As these families grew, so did their range and with it some of the 757s unique capabilities. Supposedly Boeing is pushing very hard right now to sell additional airframes.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Guest

RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sun Feb 23, 2003 1:42 pm

Continental EWR states - "I doubt American really needs up to three daily nonstop flights from JFK to SNA. This is likely to get cut down to one, and then eventually dropped. AA is edging closer to Chapter 11 and you wonder why? Yes, Continental has three daily nonstops to SNA (all 737-700's) but CO has a HUB in Newark and can fill those planes more effectively and efficiently than American, which does not have a hub at JFK."

It doesn't matter if AA has or does not have a hub at JFK. Could it have occurred to you that AA has certain advantages in the New York and Los Angeles metro areas that Continental doesn't? AA has a very high concentration of AAdvantage members in the Orange County area. It has many corporate accounts in the Greater Los Angeles metro area. AA's market share of the LA and NY O&D markets combined is considerably greater than that of Continental.

Since you brought it up, I might ask you as well how close is Continental to bankruptcy now that they hocked their spare parts and ground equipment? Other than United, they are the only airline that has had to resort to such a desparate move.

 
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STT757
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sun Feb 23, 2003 1:57 pm

"Since you brought it up, I might ask you as well how close is Continental to bankruptcy now that they hocked their spare parts and ground equipment? Other than United, they are the only airline that has had to resort to such a desparate move. "

Which is exactly the problem with AA, they are burning through an insane amount of money each month with no end in sight. They will be bankrupt by November if the current trend continues, and they (Carty) are not doing shit while UAL, U etc all are lowering their costs.

At least CO is taking steps now, what steps are AA taking to slow their cash burn?
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sun Feb 23, 2003 2:08 pm

Haveric,

US will indeed have one nonstop to PHL from SNA, but not on a 757. It will be operated with an Airbus A319-100.

ContinentalEWR
 
ont 737
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sun Feb 23, 2003 2:20 pm

If AA can try to make 2 daily 757s from LGB to JFK work, why not 3 757s from SNA? It is not that much of a stretch....
 
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STT757
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sun Feb 23, 2003 2:23 pm

What about AA"s JFK-OAK flights , they started out with 3 daily 757s (IIRC). How many are there now, 0 ?
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
klwright69
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sun Feb 23, 2003 4:41 pm

I don't think AA is wise to start such long haul mainline domestic service at this time. No other big 6 airline is doing that as far as I know. For example, CO has added a few Expressjet flights and a couple international flights here and there, but just about zero domestic mainline. I know some here think this route will mint money for AA day one. But last I checked not a lot of mainline domestic flying was profitable for just about anyone. AA might have more FF members in Orange County than CO does, but CO probably has a lot in the NYC as well. CO has only been flying the route for a mere 8 or 9 years. The implication that somehow this move demonstrates AA's financial prowess over CO nearly made me fall out of my chair laughing. This kind of logic reminds of posters who a year or so ago said that UA must be in better financial shape than CO because they flew bigger planes between LAX-NYC. My goodness.

Besides AA's vanishing JFK-OAK, weren't they planning to begin JFK-ONT, then decided it was doomed to fail before the first flight and yanked it?! I remember some were shocked because AA has many frequent flyers there.
 
LAXFlyer
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RE:

Sun Feb 23, 2003 5:14 pm

I think you better check your facts before posting such a stupid comment. All airlines in one shape or another have resorted to barrowing, selling, and hocking equipment for money. And as for CO being close to bankruptcy??? Far from it pal!
 
ba319-131
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sun Feb 23, 2003 7:20 pm

I think we shall have to wait and see how long this route stays at 3 a day.

My opinion,a couple of months or capacity reduced to a 738 to maintail 3 daily flights.

Just my 0.02 cents.

Rgds

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ContinentalEWR
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Sun Feb 23, 2003 10:54 pm

No doubt, SNA, and for that matter, JFK, are high yielding markets with a lot of business travel potential. NYC, for obvious reasons, and Orange County is a major financial services center, with many investment management firms there in and around Newport Beach. However, the economy is fragile, business trips are down, and the recurring problem in the US Airline Industry during tough or challenging times such as these, is the tendency toward overcapacity. This is good for the consumer (prices go down to fill seats) but the JFK-SNA route to be flown by AA up to three times a day illustrates the problem. Can this route really support a total of six daily flights, granted from two NYC airports? I am very skeptical. I hope it does work. I have always wanted American to be an even bigger player in the NY Area market than it already is (and American is big in NY). I just don't think economic conditions are right to support this new service. But I guess only time will tell.

ContinentalEWR
 
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STT757
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:52 am

There is too much capacity in the US domestic Market and AA launches a route like this?

If it was so profitable why did it take them up to now to realize this?. And why did they drop the route in the mid '90s when the economy was booming, only to wait until the economy is at it's worst to relaunch the route?.

I could see a daily 757, or 2 daily 737-800s but 3 757s?.. That's more capacity than they have flying JFK-San Diego.

If they are so big in the NY market lets see atleast one flight to Chicago from JFK.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
klwright69
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Mon Feb 24, 2003 4:33 am

Yes, I was first surprised to read that AA was starting this route. I thought they took this route over when they acquired TW. I didn't know they had discontinued it. It somes that this is the worst time to restart it. Wasn't there a thread recently that stated that AA was starting EWR-CDG?
 
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STT757
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Mon Feb 24, 2003 6:14 am

The AA EWR-CDG flight was a rumor, I don't think there's anything to that.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ont 737
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RE: New AA Route: SNA-JFK

Mon Feb 24, 2003 11:47 am

Speaking of 757s and and SNA. I heard today that we (HP) are going to get them again pretty soon. Its been a while since we have seen them around.

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