flyyul
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Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 2:54 am

I have just received word from the CEO of the ADM that Lufthansa has a plan to serve Montreal for summer 2003.

The details are to be arranged in short order, and they involve the involment of Lufthansa on a 2nd frequency between Montreal and Frankfurt. This is again my hunch, but it could also be Montreal-Munich....

Summer 2003 is an unprecedented summer for Montreal. If Lufthansa does commence Montreal service, Lufthansa will join SATA, Aeris, United Express, Skyservice, and WestJet as new entries to Montreal.. not to mention expanded frequencies by Air France to Paris (3rd flight) and Austrian going 5 weekly to Montreal....

Mark
 
gmonney
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:08 am

That would be great, I know that the YYZ flight is always pretty well full, my buddy's ex-gf works for LH and said thats its a busy flight and a strong route.

Mark, do you think you will be seeing an A330?

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
flyyul
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:11 am

Grant,

No clue yet.. The sorting you should be done shortly I guess..

Mark
 
Noise
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:34 am

Absolutley great news, I can't wait t'ill I see the LH livery flying over my house, and at the tarmac at YUL!
 
Qb001
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:59 am

This proves that airports in the northeastern part of North America are loaded to the max and it becomes more and more apparent to me that YUL is starting to be seen as an alternative.

I can only dream of all the airlines that would fly in Montreal, if we had a real airport  Pissed
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
KM732
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:04 am

Hi!

I also heard that LH will start MUC-YUL in summer 2003! This service is also said to be operated by AC from winter 2003. That would be nice for us at MUC...  Smile

Stefan
 
Noise
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:04 am

Don't worry, Dorval will become a real airport once the expansion is done.
 
gmonney
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:05 am

You have a great airport.....YMX....... HA HA HA HA sorry i couldn't resist!

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
flyyul
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:15 am

I was in YMx yesterday..... its not a very good airport!

Mark
 
Qb001
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:24 am

When used, YMX always received good marks from pax, much much more than YUL ever got. It's not a perfect airport, but invest the 800 million$ ADM is investing at YUL (which was supposed to be 140 million$ back in 1997  Nuts . I think that differential is a perfect testimony to ADM's credibility: none), and you'll have a perfectly decent airport, with an almost limitless capacity to expand. Sorry, could not resist  Big grin .
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
SafeFlyer
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:51 am

Ob001, you're right.

Mark: I was in YMx yesterday..... its not a very good airport!

Well' it's way better than the current Dorval! Let's wait "till the expansion is completed.
BTW, YOW T-New inauguration is early, it will not open in 2004 but in 2003 now Big grin I'm glad we will now have a world-class airport.
 
flyyul
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:55 am

QB001,

Did you not know that transforming an inefficient airport like YMX to the standards of an airport that handles domestic/transborder/international traffic will cost billions.

YMX has 5 gates, and a bunch of stnads that can be reached by bus... waste of time..

Transforming YMX into the Montreal standards involve one more runway, a new AC HQ/maintenance, and a terminal that is built for the segregation in traffic; in other words everything that Mirabel is not.

ADM's credibility has increased with mr.Cherry at power. Look at all the new airlines and frequencies. Have you seen the type of faciltiies we will get?

147 million bucks and you get a little finger to replace the aeroquay, 716 million and you get an airport that can build to the needs of its increasing users, and give air Canada to space to build an efficient "mini-hub"...

But in quebec, we've made a point of ignoring the facts... hecne the YMX/YUL debate.

Mark
 
flyyul
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:56 am

YMX is only better than YUL if you are taking an international flight.... point final..

Mark
 
Qb001
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 5:20 am

FLYYUL,

Find me an expert who says YUL has better potential than YMX... Even ADM admits that they'll have to turn to YMX 20 to 25 years from now. So why invest 800 millions$ at YUL now, instead of doing it at YMX and make it the airport it was supposed to be in the first place. It's a total waste of money (my and your money BTW).

YMX has room to add 4 (4 !!!) more runways, YUL has none. YMX has room to add between 4 to 6 terminals, YUL has none, which is why the terminal will look like a spaghetti bowl (concourses running everywhere) once the works are completed. I wonder who is ignoring the facts here...
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
AS_GSC
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 5:28 am

ADM's credibility has increased with mr.Cherry at power.

I know it's weird, but the first thing I thought of after I read this was, "Wow! Don Cherry (Hockey Night in Canada) is the ADM manager!"

Cheers!
AS_GSC
 
flyyul
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 5:32 am

Certainly not I..

Firstly, I am in close contact with the CEO of the ADM, and they have plan to increase airport capacity to 25 million... nobody is going to YMX anytime soon.

Remember that LHR handles 60 million on essentially 2 runways, in a space that is less larger than Dorval Airport....

I know who thinks YUL is better than YMX; Air Canada, Lufthansa, Air France, United, and all others that have been waiting for better facilities at YUL.

Be certain, the CEO of the ADM Mr.James Cherry is one smart cookie, and it shows...... go to the Montreal Airports website (http://132.216.13.9/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl) and have highlighted the turn-around that the ADM has made in 2 years only.

The facts speak for themselves, Montreal alone this year will accomodate more "new-flights" than Toronto will based on what we see so far. This is quite an accomplishment......

Mark
 
Qb001
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 5:47 am

FLYYUL,

Sorry to say this, but you are making facts. The only airlines that really favored YUL over YMX is AC: of course, YUL was no match to their YYZ hub. YMX, on the other hand, would have been a serious threat...

AF strongly opposed the transfer from YMX to YUL. Other airlines don't really care; why would they?

As for the comparison with LHR, it is totally irrelevant, almost a counter-argument if you favor YUL over YMX. I do not want to expand on that, because it involves too many facts. But one thing I can say is this: the day Montreal will have 5 airports like London has (Heathrow, Stansted, Luton, Gatwick and City), then we'll be in a position to compare apples with bananas.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
flyyul
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 6:02 am

QB001,

We are getting way off-topic... but it doesnt matter Big grin

AF at first opposed the move, but are glad with it today let me tell you. They have a 20% connecting rate, and will expand to 3 daily. If they werent happy, they wouldnt expand and build on the connections with DL. In fact, AF is seeking big-time interline agreements with WJ/SG etc for connections into YUL.

YMX would never have been a serious threat because AC makes mnuch of its money in YUL on the short-hops to YYZ/LGA/EWR/BOS/PHL. A 45minute drive to YMX would negate the advantages that are YUL. The study that I am speaking of, is that AC would lose a ton of business to trains/cars/buses with the YMX consolidation. Then they said, build a high-speed train, and extend the 13, but between you and I WE ALREADY pay the highest taxes in the G8, so I am not willing to pay even more for something we can already do at Dorval thank you very much. AC has its HQ (which employees 4,000) and its maintenance hub (which employs over 5,000) at Dorval. What are you gonna tell AC, move all your 10,000 employees to YMX? They would give you the finger and joined the "401 movement" if you know what I am speaking about...

Remember a solution was made to stop the exodus of the Lufthansa's, Alitalia's, and LOT's to Toronto, and that solution was Dorval. Austrian, Lufthansa, Air France 3rd flight, KLM, Swissair/Sabena (bankrupt), Air Canada, United, Continental, and others have expanded service. Remember Canada 3000 making the headlines in the business section of the gazette saying "Dorval or nothing".... Canada 3000 wanted to fly YULLAX, YULLAS, and a whole bunch of other routes but were not able to due to YMX. Remember Royal saying the same? If you dont remember, I have all the articles archived....

Comparing YUL vs LHR is not comparing apples vs oranges one bit. LHR just shows you what you can do with limited space, and 2 runways. YUL can do the same until we are six feet under.

Starting in 37 days, there is a new era opening. The new TB finger which I have visited several times, will definitely open your eyes about the prospects of YUL. The TB essentially triples the amount of existing bridges/and gates on the current TB pier at YUL. THe new international will add 14 over the current 9. Each finger could be expanded to handle 40 gates combined.

The capacity at Dorval goes from 8 million to 15 million to 25 million in no time.... your just not willing to wait and see...

Mr.Cherry said "Build it and they will come"... ive seen quite a few coming, and there are more on hold waiiting to see for themselves.

Mark

 
Qb001
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 6:11 am

FLYYUL,

I still don't agree with you. I think, for the most part, that you are factually wrong.

And since we are off topic, let's put an end to that debate, which is of little interest to almost everyone here.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
Skywatcher
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 6:33 am

YMX was a good idea that ended up being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Life is full of missed opportunities. You can either get hung up and eternally bitch about them (YMX) or cut your losses, adapt to new realities and move on (YUL).

The residents of the Mirabel region fought like hell to keep it from being built for years while it was being built. Now they fight to keep it from closing.I don't get it.

No matter what, at least the ADM (and ultimately the YUL airline passengers)will save much of the $20 million in annual YMX operating losses now that it is going to cargo only. That's 55,000 reasons per day, in perpetuity, why things had to change once and for all.

I wish people could just accept that a decision had to be made. It's done.It's time to make the best of it.
 
flyyul
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 6:45 am

Let's agree to disagree QB 001..

I do think the future of Montreal airports is brighter than ever.

Mark
 
A350-200
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 8:42 am

FlyYul,
I really liked the way you back you statements:
"I'm in close contact with ADM CEO"
Just found it funny. (no offence)
 
flyyul
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 2:23 pm

Ok I dont see the humour in it.... but it was put in there to valide the thread I have created.

Mark
 
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yyz717
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 2:56 pm

Montreal alone this year will accomodate more "new-flights" than Toronto will based on what we see so far.

Nonsense. YYZ handles about 3x as many pax as YUL. If you note the incremental YYZ flights, they're likely far larger than the new YUL flights. YYZ'ers just don't self-gloss about it.

The capacity at Dorval goes from 8 million to 15 million to 25 million in no time.... your just not willing to wait and see...

YUL handles about 10M pax.....the same number handled in 1975. I don't see YUL growing to 15M anytime soon. The Conference Board of Canada predicts that the YUL economy will grow the slowest of Canada's 10 largest cities....on top of an already low PCI....this is not a recipe for traffic growth.

I do think the future of Montreal airports is brighter than ever.

Compared to what? YUL has dropped from 1st to 3rd busiest airport in Canada. YYC will likely pass it this decade. The economic forecast alone for YUL suggests minimal traffic growth.

FlyYul,
I really liked the way you back you statements:
"I'm in close contact with ADM CEO"


Mark says the same thing about Robert Milton frequently.









I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:08 pm

Man, I wish YYC would get some big European airlines.

All we get are British charters that have a new name every year, lol.

Oh well, I guess there's not a market yet.


Kris
YYC  Smokin cool
 
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yyz717
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:11 pm

Well, YYC has had BA, KL, LH sked service in the past. The way the YYC economy and population is growing....YYC is well on its way to eclipsing YUL as the 3rd busiest airport later this decade.

In the meantime, you've got AC to LHR, FRA.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:14 pm

Ok Neil...

Do you want to start adding up the new frequencies from both Montreal and Toronto for 2003 so far?

And you took me way out-of context by saying that YUL could easily build an airport that can handle 25 million pax.

"FlyYul,
I really liked the way you back you statements:
"I'm in close contact with ADM CEO"

Mark says the same thing about Robert Milton frequently."

-Would you like a copy of the e-mail, or maybe a copy of the ADM communique that Mr.Cherry sent me to my e-mail... man your annoying.


Lastly, I know its upsetting. United/WestJet/Lufthansa three airlines which you boldly predicted would never serve Montreal....

Would you like to take bets on YYC passing Montreal this decade...

We'll go round and round in circles Neil, I dont mind it... ill refute any of your points with facts and evidence..

Mark
 
flyyul
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:17 pm

"The way the YYC economy and population is growing....YYC is well on its way to eclipsing YUL as the 3rd busiest airport later this decade. "

-HAHAHA ok Neil.

 
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yyz717
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:05 pm

Mark, I do respect your knowledge...but when you start to self-gloss about YUL, I will challenge you on it.

Attached is the economic forecast statement for Canadian cities thru to 2007 by the Conference Board of Canada.

Calgary leads nation in growth
GDP expected to rise 4.9%

Jacqueline Thorpe
Financial Post

Wednesday, January 15, 2003

CALGARY'S GROWTH STAMPEDE: A photo of Calgary.

Barring a major investment exodus because of the Kyoto Protocol or another drought, the three Western cities of Calgary, Saskatoon and Edmonton should post the fastest economic growth of 18 major cities in Canada this year.

That's the forecast from the Conference Board of Canada, which has ranked the growth prospects of the country's major metropolitan areas for 2003.

Calgary's gross domestic product is forecast to rise 4.9% this year and to lead all cities over the 2004-2007 period, with growth averaging 3.3% per year. Saskatoon is expected to grow by 4% in 2003 and Edmonton by 3.8%.

"The recent plans we've seen in terms of investment intentions in the energy sector are certainly not showing any sign of extra concern over Kyoto," said Mario Lefebvre, associate director at the Ottawa-based think-tank.

While the energy sector complained loudly that the Kyoto Protocol to cut greenhouse gas emissions would curtail investment, the reality has been less clear cut.

Just last week oilsands giant Suncor Energy Inc. said it would boost spending on capital projects 24% to $1.05-billion next year.

Yesterday, TrueNorth Energy shelved a $3.5-billion oilsands project, citing Kyoto as one reason among many why it was pulling the plug.

The Conference Board said a recovery in the U.S. economy should drive oil prices higher this year, supporting knock-on industries in Calgary.

"Last year, most companies held off construction activity, but with energy prices on the rise, development in the city has already started to skyrocket," the board said.

Rising non-residential investment should compensate for a cooling in the housing market.

In addition, higher oil royalties will spur a 4.7% increase in public spending on infrastructure projects across Alberta.

Edmonton and Saskatoon will also benefit from strong housing and retail sectors and if the weather improves, higher input from agriculture.

"To some extent our forecast for Saskatoon in 2003 is an act of faith that weather conditions are going to permit agriculture to have a normal year," Mr. Lefebvre said. "If that does not materialize then you're not going to see 4% growth. On the other hand, Saskatoon is not only agriculture. They, just like so many cities had a spectacular year on the housing front."

Saskatoon is also coming off a low base, with growth of just 2.8% in 2002 and a 3.3% contraction in activity in 2001.

A new casino and an uptick in manufacturing should drive growth in St. Catharines 3.8% higher, making it the growth leader in Ontario. Toronto is expected to expand by 3.7%, London by 3.6% and Ottawa by 2.9%. Quebec City, which led the ranking in 2002 with growth of 4.4%, will suffer the biggest drop this year.

It is expected to come in 16th with growth of 2.7% in 2002, though it will cool rather than slump. Construction output is expected to decline by 6.7% after rising 10% in each of the past few years and public spending slows.

Victoria pulls up in last place with growth expected to come in at just 1.4% this year, as a slump in in tourism and cuts to public sector employment restrain activity.

CALGARY'S GROWTH STAMPEDE:
REAL GDP:
2003:
Calgary: 4.9%
Saskatoon: 4%
Edmonton: 3.8%
St. Catharines: 3.8%
Toronto: 3.7%
London: 3.6%
Sherbrooke: 3.5%
Trois Rivières: 3.3%
Regina: 3.1%
Vancouver: 3%

2004-2007:
Calgary: 3.3%
Toronto: 3.2%
Ottawa: 3.1%
Vancouver: 3%
Edmonton: 3%
St. Catharines: 3%
Sherbrooke: 2.9%
Montreal: 2.8%
London: 2.8%
Thunder Bay: 2.8%

Source: The Conference Board of Canada


Now, if I was a betting man (and I am), the above forecasts would not provide me with much confidence about YUL traffic growth.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:31 pm

Wow 4.9% predicted growth for YYC for this year.

That means even more people moving here and even more traffic *groan*

Ah well, all the good for the economy, and with my family in real estate it's going to be another lucrative year for us  Smokin cool

Kris,
YYC
 
flyyul
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:12 pm

Again Neil,

For the last 3 years, we were at the top in GDP growth. Remember that it is the short-term past, present, and very short-term future that counts in the aviation world.

Furthermore, if I am correct, the conference board predicted Montreal being in the middle of the pack... yet we continue to impress.

Point in case, even the cnference board didnt expect the Canadian economy to soar despite the significant US slow down. They kept warning us of this famou slowdown or recession... such things are unpredictable, the only thing I take to heart is that despite the pessimism of people across the nation, Montreal managed to be no.1 ... and that is a considerable way from where it use to be..

Mark
 
Noise
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:43 pm

Thunder Bay's economy is expected to grow?

Any way, Montreal was predicted to have an avergae GDP growth for 2002, and look what happened...........the ended second to Quebec City! I think the predictions by the Conference Board of Canada are pretty accurate, but its not always going to be 100% like that. Who knows, maybe Calgary willg row much slower than everyone expected.

Any way, its not like Montreal is in recession or is going into recession, there will be plenty of growth, just not as much as Calgary.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sun Feb 23, 2003 12:59 am

the CEO of the ADM Mr.James Cherry is one smart cookie, and it shows...... go to the Montreal Airports website (http://132.216.13.9/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl)

How can he be so smart when the airport authority has a web URL like that???
 
Noise
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sun Feb 23, 2003 1:34 am

That's not the Airport Authority's URL, it's http://www.admtl.com
 
flyyul
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sun Feb 23, 2003 1:42 am

LOL good job ChrisNH...  Big thumbs up

 
munich
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sun Feb 23, 2003 5:02 am

The rumours grow stronger, that the new LH-flight will be MUC / EDDM), Germany">MUC-YUL / CYUL), Canada - Quebec">YUL. Possibly it will be at the opening of the new terminal 2 in munich in the end of June 2003.

[Edited 2003-02-22 21:04:46]
Regards! Robert alias munich
 
Noise
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sun Feb 23, 2003 5:16 am

If the flight is to MUC, this will hurt Austrian!
 
Skywatcher
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sun Feb 23, 2003 5:51 am

If the Federal government doesn't cough-up hundreds of millions of taxpayer money to Ford & Chrysler for new Ontario car plants I doubt that the southern Ontario growth forecasts will be as rosy as expected.

Maybe the YYC-YEG market will end up attracting a viable rail transport alternative, especially if the forecast growth actually materializes.
Although such a development would stunt the airline industry in Alberta, it could help to fulfill Kyoto protocol obligations as an added bonus.

I'm so tired of my hard-earned tax money going to subsidize Ontario based automobile plants, owned by mega-rich auto companies.
 
flyyul
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sun Feb 23, 2003 6:10 am

.... Munich,

What speculation are you basing your opinion on?

I;d like to hear more if possible.

YULMUC would be one great route, and would be at the same time an odd one. Air Canada on YYZMUC is doing well, but not more than a B767-300ER standard. I think YULFRA double daily is more in the making than any.

Yesterday;s AC874 YULFRA 74E was booked at 341 out of 296. Same for YYZFRA's.

Mark
 
captaingomes
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sun Feb 23, 2003 6:14 am

Kris, you better use all that accumulated wealth from real estate and lower taxes to buy more Dragon-wings models.  Big grin

I really think the biggest news for YUL recently is the addition of WestJet. That alone will add more passengers flying to and from Montreal. It's what the airport needed more than anything. Additional international service is also good and obviously more prestigious.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
UN_B732
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sun Feb 23, 2003 6:57 am

A VERY COOL SUMMER FOR YUL! Maybe those Expansion Fees I mean Improvement Fees are starting to pay off, KLM 777s are starting soon. And Transaero might be starting YUL-DME (Moscow-Domodedovo) Service....
I wonder what kind of an a/c Transaero would use.
-Transaero Boeing 737-200
What now?
 
flyyul
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sun Feb 23, 2003 7:39 am

This summer will be sick..

Sata, Aeris, 3rd Air France (777, 744, 343 combo), more Austrian, Lufthansa, Egyptair, RAM daily... Westjet/United

Mark
 
munich
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sun Feb 23, 2003 9:35 am

@ FLYYUL

This information is from a German aviatic website, written by a employee from munich-airport. But this guy had the information also only heard from LH-employees. As I wrote - it's a rumour, but it can come true.
Regards! Robert alias munich
 
munich
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Sun Feb 23, 2003 9:45 am

@FLYYUL

here is the link, you find the posts under "MUC Sommer News:". The site is in german language, but if you understand a little German, you can read the original message.

http://www.airliners.de/community/frame.php?redirect=%2Fcommunity%2Fviewforum.php%3Fforum%3D1%2644753
Regards! Robert alias munich
 
delta-flyer
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summe

Sun Feb 23, 2003 3:41 pm

When I was a kid growing up in Montreal in the 60's, we had daily LH flights from Frankfurt operated by B707 equipment. We also had Sabena, Swissair, KL, AF, IB, SU, OK, SK, BA, AZ, OA, and others I can't think of. Toronto had diddly-squat. Montreal was the undisputed Canadian gateway to Europe. I think the opening of YMX was partly responsible for the demise of Montreal as a gateway.

Some interesting aircraft types of the time were, in addition to the common DC-8 / B707, the BA VC-10 (in BOAC livery), Czech IL-62 and Aeroflot TU-114. It was a real treat to spend a summer evening at YUL, as most of the flights arrived late and there was sufficient daylight until about 9 pm.

Speaking of Lufthansa, I recall that one of their 707's inbound from FRA landed by mistake at Cartierville's runway 24, which was considerably shorter than YUL's 24L, its intended destination. Although the plane managed to stop without incident, it could not take off until mechanics removed the seats and other equipment to reduce weight to allow for safe departure.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
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yyz717
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:15 am

I think the opening of YMX was partly responsible for the demise of Montreal as a gateway.

The biggest cause of the economic decline of YUL was the election (and continued re-election) of the anti-English & anti-Canadian PQ party which incidently is still in power today.

The decline actually began much earlier. Toronto was growing faster than Montreal thru-out the 50's. Air traffic at YYZ surpassed YUL in 1964 actually and of course never looked back (YYZ now handles about 3x more traffic). YVR also passed YUL despite having only 50% the catchment population.

Today, YUL ranks among the poorest cities in North America, which of course is reflected in heavily depressed business and VFR air traffic numbers.

YYC is now challenging YUL for 3rd busiest airport in Canada despite having only about 1/6 the catchment population of YUL.

YMX did destroy some transfer traffic when intl & north american traffic were split in Montreal, but people also forget that the Trudeau govt placed a moratorium on new sked airlines to YYZ from 1976 to 1980. Of course, YYZ traffic growth remained robust during this period anyway.

A good indication of the relative & actual economic decline of YUL: betw 1975 and 2000 air traffic effectively doubled in North America; YUL though handled roughly the same # of passengers in 2000 as 1975. So why most NA airports doubled their traffic, YUL growth was zero.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
donder10
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:24 am

Another reason for the loss of intl traffic at Montreal:longer-ranged planes and the shift in airline operational procedures.

Plus,the fact that Montreal is one of NA's poor cities doesn't exactly help.Air travel seems to be a rather income elastic commodity so if the projected growth figures for Montreal are realised,there should be an increse in flights although mainly intra-Canada,especially with the rise of WJ.
 
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c172akula
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:27 am

I have to say I love this...these threads usually invovling Montreal always turn out the same  Smile First it is a new announcement on a route or airline, then something is said about Mirabel...then Toronto comes into the picture and it could become a YYZ vs YUL war...or someone mentions YYC and it becomes a YYC vs YUL war! I love it!

And Kris I remember the days when Lufthansa and KLM flew into YYC, I think in one of KLM's final years here they sucked a bunch of Geese into a 747 engine on final approach!

Oh yeah back to the topic...YYC is better than YUL because we have those Rocky Mountains as a backdrop, and most importantly YUL lacks one thing...I don't fly there Big grin
 
JU101
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summe

Mon Feb 24, 2003 2:03 am

As many of you are discussing future expansion of Dorval, and the exceptional potential it may have, i think that some have been ignorant of certain developments in the surroundings. First of all, it is well known that the majority of trasatlantic travelers from Ottawa have no choice but to depart from Montreal, when traveling to Europe, Middle East, and Africa. Given the fact that YOW is currently expanding its capacities, it would be reasonable to expect that this airport will also engage in other transatlantic flights other than the service now employed by AC to LHR.

I am sure the cost of flying to YOW is less than YUL or YYZ. Furthermore YOW could also have the advantage of establishing itself as a connecting hub for travelers originating in Vancouver, Calgary, etc. This post will certainly sound as an alarm to those enthusiasts from Montreal, and there is every good reason for this.

It is inconceivable to expect me to be praising the business of approach ADM. How could an original estimation of 140 million dollars now be equated to an expenditure of 800 million? This Mafia-business is unacceptable, and i cannot see any profitability for YUL as long as those corrupt officials continue with this trend. Does anyone ask themselves how much the decision makers have earned (i.e. bonuses) since these expenditures have increased? Has there been any concrete explanations regarding the increased cost of technical consultations, through contractors and engineers employed by the ADM? Unfortunately officials from the government are also associated with this added cost, and thus, we will never hear of the activity from behind the scenes.
 
Noise
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer

Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:06 am

JU101, I agree with most of your points. YOW is expanding rather rapidly and does pose a small threat to YUL's growth, but their expansion is small compared to what is being done at YUL. By the time Dorval' Horizon 2009 finishes, YUL will double the size of YOW in 2020. YOW may get routes to CDG or maybe even FRA, but nothing more.

140 million $ to 800 million? Where did you get that? The original perspective 2020 was supposed to be 1.4 Billion, and that was rediced to 716 million for Horizon 2009. 140 million is the price tag for the TB finger alone. 716 million is the price for Horizon 200.

I don't know where you get 800 million $!

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