Tom in NO
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LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Wed Feb 26, 2003 4:02 am

The thread about Western's service to LGA inspired me to print out the link that was provided: http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/1987/sg870171.txt.

As I was perusing it, I noticed the following blurb: "Until 1984, the perimeter rule was informal and prohibited non-stop flights into or out of LaGuardia to or from points more than 2,000 miles from the airport. In 1984, following a study, the Port Authority instituted a formal 1,500-mile perimeter rule but 'grandfathered' service to Denver, which is more than 1,600 miles from LaGuardia." From which comes my question:

Anybody out there know which routes were directly affected by this restriction? In other words, which routes had to be discontinued upon the enforcement of it? Obviously SLC-LGA was one, but what were some of the others, if any?

Tom in NO (at MSY)
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
CX747
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Wed Feb 26, 2003 4:26 am

Why was this enforcement put in place anyway?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
timz
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Wed Feb 26, 2003 7:28 am

I suspect no flights got discontinued in 1984. Probably Western didn't fly LGA-SLC then and there aren't many other likely destinations beyond Denver.
 
gigneil
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Wed Feb 26, 2003 8:20 am

Its part of their high density rule. They want to reduce overall traffic and thereby congestion.

N
 
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STT757
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Wed Feb 26, 2003 8:38 am

"Why was this enforcement put in place anyway?"

Because domestically speaking JFK is/was a ghost town, the PA is/was trying to push more business into JFK which is way under utilized during the day.

Ever check how many flights there are between Chicago and JFK compared to the number of flights between Chicago and EWR and LGA.

They were/ are trying to get more domestic service (other than LAX and SFO) into JFK, something that has been unsuccessful until B6. Even with B6 JFK is still a ghost town between 8AM and 5PM, very few domestic flights.

That's why they will never try and expand LGA, the more flights and passengers LGA gets the more JFK losses.
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ord
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Wed Feb 26, 2003 8:50 am

I don't think we ever determined on the last post whether or not Western actually flew SLC-LGA. I'd be curious to know.

But the three nonstops were in their timetables in late 1986.
 
flyguy1
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:35 am

Though JFK does not approach LGA in terms of short haul domestic service, it is still very busy at certain times. I would say 8am-12 is slow, with small flight banks here, and there. After 12, things pick up with international flights, by 2:30, 3:00 it is quite busy with 3 runways in use at times.
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STT757
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:25 pm

With International flights JFK gets very busy, however if your waiting for flights from Chicago, Denver, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Charlotte, Raleigh, Greensboro, Kansas City, Toronto, Manchester NH etc you will be waiting a long long time.

Because there are no flights from JFK to these cities, where at EWR and LGA these cities get hourly service.
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jhooper
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:37 pm

Why? Look at the Wright Ammendment.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:43 am

Jhooper..hate to break this to ya..the wright Amendmant has nothing to do with LGA.

 
petazulu
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:53 am

I think the fact that JFK has such "peak" between 3-9pm is what hinders it in attracting domestic service.

While the rest of the day may be OK- airlines are reluctant not to be able to offer their business passengers high frequency during the afternoon/evening hours do to serious slot allocation issues during that time.

There are also serious car/ ground transport issue during that time as well (see Van Wyck ParkingLot (I mean Expressway)!

Unless someone would be interested in developing a morning only operation- its kind of better to use LGA and EWR which are more evenly spaced out (although still very corwded) during the day.
 
jrlander
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Thu Feb 27, 2003 1:14 am

Actually, I think MSP is served by NW once per day from JFK. Also, Raleigh, Chicago Toronto are served once per day by Delta Connection. I think that DEN is still served by UAL. And I'm sure that American and United have some additional service to Chicago.

However, I wish others would increase domestic service at JFK. I think that as the industry recovers, post upcoming war with Iraq, more service will come. Delta has seemingly overcome its previous problem with lines at JFK. Formerly, one had to go through security before you checked in, which would take forever as people loaded their huge bags through the screening devices. I flew out of there yesterday, and was amazed that it took less than 10 minutes to check in for a domestic flight and then go through security. With the Airtrain coming on line sometime, and Song being launched, I would hope that terminals 2 and 3 would get a lot busier. It would seem to make sense to offer DCI service to all secondary cities in the Northeast so that passengers could connect to international service by Delta, and increasing domestic service by Song.
 
flyguy1
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:40 am

JFK does lack in domestic services to the cities listed, though RDU does get 6 flights per day in the summer. The other cities are served 1x per day, GSO, MHT, MCI and CLT not at all. I do feel these cities could support more services, though not on the scale of LGA. Hopefully Jetblue will expand more into short range domestic flights out of JFK, therefore spurring more competition.
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jhooper
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:03 pm

Jhooper..hate to break this to ya..the wright Amendmant has nothing to do with LGA.

I know, but the motivation is similar.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
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STT757
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:04 pm

Checking the March '03 OAG

JFK has only one flight a day to Denver , on B6. UAL has never served DEN from JFK.

JFK does indeed have one flight to MSP (NWA).

JFK only has one daily flight to Chicago Ohare, a DL Connection CRJ. AA has one flight from JFK-ORD on Saturdays, and UAL has one flight from JFK-ORD on Fridays.

1 daily CRJ to Chicago Ohare, 1 daily DC-9 to MSP, 1 daily A320 to Denver and 1 daily CRJ to Toronto is pretty lame domestic service.

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jrlander
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:34 pm

STT757:

Yes, but those cities do get service. Your post said that they got no service. Check your facts before you claim something.

Though I must agree.... pretty lame service. I wonder if MSP might get an additional flight with the DL/CO/NWA alliance, allowing NW passengers to more easily connect with DL and DL codeshare flights from JFK. If UAL goes under, it will be really interesting to see what happens.
 
timz
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UAL To Denver

Fri Feb 28, 2003 2:45 am

Slight correction (I hope): I'm 80-90% sure UA did fly JFK-DEN with DC-8s-- and IDL-DEN with DC-7s.
 
flyguy1
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Fri Feb 28, 2003 2:46 am

NW did have 2 daily flights from MSP to JFK last summer, I do not know if that second flight will return this summer. As for the other cities, I do think there is a market for some service, time will only tell.
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STT757
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Fri Feb 28, 2003 8:39 am

I was wrong, there is one CRJ flight to most of the cities I listed. But I made my point.

But you were wrong also, "I think that DEN is still served by UAL"

Check YOUR facts, UAL has not served JFK from Denver in the past 20 years (if ever).
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dutchjet
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:11 am

Firstly, LGA-SLC was never operated by Western (it was out of JFK and EWR) and, much to DL's disappointment, they were never permitted to introduce LGA-SLC after the merger, a major problem for them with respect to the SLC hub.

Secondly, most domestic service operates out of LGA simply because of supply and demand, most NYC customers prefer LGA since it is much closer to Manhattan.

Also, the limitations do have a historical-practical background - when jets were first introduced, 707s/720s/880s/DC8s could not use LGA due to runway length and other operational reasons. The 727s were the first jets at LGA, and the earlier models did not have adequate range at full payload to fly much further than 1400-1500 miles - thus, the informal limitation. Later, when DC10 and L1011s were introduced, I think (I can be wrong) the weight limitations prevented transcontinental flights, but Denver was possible. Of course, everything changed with 757/767, MD80 and 2nd generation 737s, which had much greater range, and then the formal restrictions came into being.

I cannot remember any routes being discontinued because of this ruling, LGA is domestic only (plus Canada, Bermuda and Bahamas I think) and DEN was the only longer haul service. NO transcon ever operated from LGA, or Las Vegas or Phoenix service (America West also operates from JFK/EWR) - the only sticky issue was SLC due to WA, then DL's hub there.

 
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Crosswind
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:54 am

I cannot remember any routes being discontinued because of this ruling

Dutchjet,
American Airlines used to operate their Caribbean flights out of LGA using B727s, which were later changed to depart JFK. I don't have any proof that the change was due to the 1984 perimeter rule decision, but it seems likely to have promted the switch to JFK.

Maybe someone could shed some light on this?

Can anyone provide any info on what Caribbean destinations American served out of New York in the late 1970s/early 1980s?

Regards
CROSSWIND

(As an aside)
United did serve JFK-DEN in the late 1970s because the DC-8 that ran out of fuel and crashed near Portland in 1978 was routing JFK-DEN-PDX.
 
jrlander
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Fri Feb 28, 2003 12:39 pm

STT757:

Of course, I said "I think..." indicating that I wasn't sure. You made no such indication.
 
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STT757
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Fri Feb 28, 2003 12:42 pm

I think I did,

I think your wrong,

I think you should go back

and think again.
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timz
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The Caribbean Etc

Sat Mar 01, 2003 8:04 am

7/82 North American OAG shows no nonstops from the Caribbean to LGA, on AA or anything else. Or from Bermuda either. I didn't check the Worldwide, but the North American says it includes all the islands.

Turns out UA flew JFK-DEN until 1989. They probably started in 1953-54; they flew LGA-DEN with DC-6s or -6Bs, but I assume when they started flying DC-7s they had to move to IDL. I'll bet they flew it continuously 1954-89.
 
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Crosswind
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RE: LGA's Perimeter Rule 1984 Decision

Sat Mar 01, 2003 9:00 am

Timz,
My mistake! I went back and did some checking and I was wrong, American were operating their Caribbean flights out of JFK as far back as 1976. No idea why I'd convinced myself they were out of LGA at that time  Confused

Regards
CROSSWIND

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