MxCtrlr
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The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:18 pm

For those who don't believe the TSA has gone overboard (and continues to do so), read the article in the link below. The height of stupidity just keeps going higher and higher....It proves out the adage - The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has finite limits!

http://www.msnbc.com/news/877295.asp?0sl=-12

Where does it stop? Closing spotting areas, under the guise of increased security. Now, model rocketry engines. What's next? Something near and dear to you. If you sit back and do nothing, you have no one to blame but yourself!


MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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cloudy
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:27 pm

This just goes to show how shortsighted Beauraucracies are, and how inconsiderate of the interests of the rest of us.

Yet after every tragedy, we are told that the solution to our problems is to give such beauraucrats more power.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:27 pm

Damn... First my Enron and Worldcom stock, and now my Estes Model Rocketry stock...  Big grin
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:29 pm

"Congress defined an explosive as any chemical mixture or device whose primary or common purpose is to function by explosion"

Now here is an interesting point. If that is indeed how the legislation is worded, then the same increased security measures would be required for, among other things, internatl combustion engines, and the petrol we put in them. After all, the internal combustion engine is a device which is powered by petrol being ignited (exploded) in the cylinders.

If the law is worded like this, then you really have to wonder how much thought US Congress put into it.

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
gigneil
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:34 pm

The topic is a misnomer. This isn't really the TSA doing this its an actual law.

N
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:48 pm

The TSA is an agency directly under the control of, and created by, the Homeland Security Act. The topic may be slightly misnamed however, the relevant point is clear - civil liberties being trashed for "increased security". How many civil liberties - the right to be able to photograph aircraft without unnecessary hassles, the right to shoot off a model rocket - how many will we idly allow to be trampled before we speak? Wait for too long or too many and you may not be allowed to voice your displeasure - it will be prohibited in the name of "increased security". This may sound overboard to some but think about it - when is enough, enough? Speak up now while you still have the freedom to do so! Waiting could be fatal. Contact your state and US Representatives, state and US Senators and the Office of Homeland Security and voice your displeasure and abhorrance of these "harmless acts".


VirginFlyer hit the nail on the head (and he's not even from the US!) - how far do you allow wording to dictate to you the loss of your liberties? What if, as in his example, gas was no longer allowed to be transported over the road (because it is definitely explosive? How will you get to work, pay your bills, buy food, etc? Will that be the time when you stand up and, will it be too late?

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
jhooper
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:00 pm

It would indeed be very sad to see model rockets banned, as that would be another one of my hobbies taken away by Osama bin Landen. So definitely raise a circus about this before it is considered, but I don't really this this will actually come to be. The following comes from the article cited above.


U.S. Senator Michael Enzi, R-Wyo., intends to introduce legislation as early as this week to make what’s being called a “technical correction” to the Safe Explosives Act so that the material used inside the small motors is removed from the “explosives list.”
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
cloudy
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:06 pm

If the law is worded like this, then you really have to wonder how much thought US Congress put into it.
----

They didn't put any thought into it, they did not have the time. People were demanding action NOW at ALL COSTS. Many if not most bad laws are made this way. This is why interest groups and whining societies like to call everything a crises. When you think you have a crises, you can act without thinking. And if you don't want to think, the prepackaged solutions those interest groups and pressure groups come up with look really good. Too bad these solutions are often bad for everyone except themselves.

The TSA is good for the democratic party, which used demagogery to force the legislation through. It greatly expands the power of federal employees and their unions - a key democratic power center. The same is true of many older federal agencies like the ATF. They were made to attack a fake crises with fake solutions, all the while giving more power to their political masters.
 
LV
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:08 pm

Shooting off model rockets was always a highlight of Boy Scout camp.

The whole idea of terrorism is to force people to change their lifestyle....I hate to say it but with stuff like this....guess who's winning
 
nonrevman
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:21 pm

Is this going to be the end of fireworks as well?

The whole idea of terrorism is to force people to change their lifestyle....I hate to say it but with stuff like this....guess who's winning

I think that we have exceeded their wildest expectations.

 
b757300
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:52 pm

One has to wonder about the intelligence level of people that we keep sending to Washington. I'm starting to think that the requirements to serve in Congress or be a bureaucrat is an I.Q. no higher than 50.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
tu154m
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:57 pm

The US is being run by a bunch of inbred drooling fools. It's only going to get worse when George W starts his S&%$ overseas. I think the list of countries that hate the US is rising by the minute!!!!!! The thing that kills me is that at my work....in ATL.....the people being searched are 90yr old retires going to Vegas and NOT the aircraft cleaners who are wrapped in their burkas where you can only see their face!!!!! You could pack a mean bunch of explosives under one of those.
S
CEOs should swim with cement flippers!
 
jwenting
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 3:42 pm

As usual, the rest of the free world had restricted this "harmless" passtime for decades.
The USA is the only country I know where anyone can legally build and launch an ICBM from his back yard if he wants to without second thought to what it might do to the place it comes down again.

In many countries model rocketry isn't allowed at all, and where it is rockets can only be launched by military personel from specially designated areas.
When you want to launch your rocket, you make an appointment and are scheduled to a military life fire range where soldiers show you where to set up. They will then handle all the explosives (though they may give you the honour of pushing the button).
I wish I were flying
 
ryu2
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 6:24 pm

Model rocket is NOT the same as ICBM. ICBM means Intercontinental Ballistic Missile, and I don't think any model rocket is Intercontinental!!!
 
L-188
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 6:46 pm

Jwenting these are not ICBM's.

This are little cardboard tubes with balsa wood fins. Shot a few of them off when I was a kid.

This motors usually are about 1 to 3 CM across and about 4 or 5 cm in length. and burn off in about 2 to 3 seconds.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Wed Feb 26, 2003 8:39 pm

By way of comparison, in New Zealand you can buy model rockets over the counter. You are not however allowed to fire them off in your backyard, but must go to a designated area (Ngatea was the closest one to Auckland, to my knowledge).

I don't know what the regulations are like in Australia,

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
jhooper
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Thu Feb 27, 2003 3:41 am


The USA is the only country I know where anyone can legally build and launch an ICBM from his back yard if he wants to without second thought to what it might do to the place it comes down again.


While I still like to consider our country free, one may NOT legally build ICBMs in their back yard, at least not without a permit anyway.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
pmk
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Thu Feb 27, 2003 4:18 am

I have had it with the Anti-Americanism on this board! We are in a serious situation, this reaction is not un necessary. Anybody else out there had an airliner smash into their financial center lately?

Peter
 
jhooper
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Thu Feb 27, 2003 4:34 am

huh?????????????????????????
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
cloudy
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Thu Feb 27, 2003 9:02 pm

Jwenting,

Model rocketry is so safe that even litigation-phobic schools in the USA use it all the time. Unfortunatly, not everyone who is as ignorant as you is just an anonymous poster on some bulliten board. Some run the TSA and ATF. Some of these beauraucrats with no sense of proportion whatsoever. Many times the decision on what gets banned and what is not is done pretty much on a knee-jerk basis. Model rocketry is one of the safest hobbys there is. This is a statistically proven fact.

Any government that bans model rocketry and yet allows motercycling, even with a helmet, has got some serious problems with understanding risk. Heck, even baseball is more dangerous than model rocketry. I remember as a kid I was far more afraid of being a batter facing a high-school senior pitcher than I was afraid of my model rockets. For good reason. Because thousands of children are seriously injured by playing baseball every year - and this includes many who followed all applicable precautions. Model rocketry produces only a handfull of burns and broken windows - and the VERY FEW times this happens, it is because someone did not use common sense or follow the rules.

Or if you arn't familiar with baseball, try just being a spectator at an English soccer match. Anyone who skips a model rocket launch to even watch one of these ought to have his head examined beforehand. Because if he gets caught in a riot, there might not be much of his head left to examine afterwards.



 
flyinryan99
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Thu Feb 27, 2003 9:21 pm

What's next??? Taking fireworks away from us too?? I don't get it...this country is turning into the biggest worry wart in the world.

Ry
 
cloudy
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:12 pm

One thing I should have added....

NONE of what I or others have said defending the safety of model rocketry applies if you decide to make your own rocket engines. This is especially true if you decide to do this on your own without an EXPERIENCED EXPERT to look over your shoulder. You don't just need advise - you need supervision because advise can be misunderstood. Even then, you are taking a significant risk. MANY people have been maimed and killed while making their own fuel or engines. Prepackaged, professionally-built engines made model rocketry a safe hobby. The "Rocket Boys"were lucky. And they would have used factory built engines also, if they were available to them at that time.

There are many veniel sins in model rocketry, such as not having a large enough field, not having an adequate recovery device, etc. These are not likely to hurt you - though there is a small risk and they damage the reputation of the hobby. But there is one mortal sin. And it is mortal in a very literal sense - you take the serious risk of death from it if you try it. Don't make your own engines or fuel. And if you are dumb enough to do so, be aware of the risk you are taking and get expert supervision.

In fact, one of the dumbest things about what the ATF is doing is that it may destroy the manufacture of the very kind of pre-packaged rocket engines that have made the hobby safe. The few people who remain in the hobby afterwards will be forced to make their own fuel+engines and some will be killed in so doing. People are responsible for their own actions, so I won't put their blood on the ATF's head. But I can and will tar them and congress with hypocrisy and inneptitude. They build their own beauraucratic empires in the name of safety and security, but this action (allong with many of their other idiocies) will almost certainly cause more deaths than it prevents. I hope all the extra secretaries, agents and power are worth it for THEM- because it is costing US dearly.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:38 pm

**The thing that kills me is that at my work....in ATL.....the people being searched are 90yr old retires going to Vegas and NOT the aircraft cleaners who are wrapped in their burkas where you can only see their face!!!!! You could pack a mean bunch of explosives under one of those.**


You are right TU154M, I have constantly pissed and moaned about this day after day everytime TSA is brought up. I work at DTW and any Arabic people reading this, I am not coming down on you by saying you all are terrorists, but Detroit area has the largest Arabic population in the country and there are Al Quiada, Hezbollah and other terrorist cells right in our Detroit area...

Yet, TSA allows Arabic people to go through the checkpoint without searching the male or female headresses, yet they will make a 5 year old girl with a Winnie the Pooh hat take her hat off.

Maybe I am ethnocentric, but I don't care about the Muslim customs about removing headgear as not allowed by Allah... this is the United States... you need to conform to OUR laws and not bring up lawsuits everytime one of your women is asked to remove her headress.. there are back rooms and female TSA workers that can search you.

The thing that pisses me off about our politically correct society is that we keep giving in to other cultures, yet we give Granny a cavity search because she is a citizen of the United States and was raised under our culture.

Maybe I sound a little rough on the middle easterners, I don't know but those 19 men on Sept 11 were not Italian, Australian, British or Japanese.
 
HermansCVR580
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sun Mar 09, 2003 12:48 am

I usally try to stay out of these you suck no you suck more posts, but damn thoes fu*!@$ TSA rent a cops that failed are just pissing me off beyond belief!!!!!!! Get a grip on reality you stupid inbreeded TSA wish you auctally had a life agents. Don't single me out as a terriost and have me stand out infront of everyone at the MIA airport because my belt set your metal dector off. And to the asshole TSA that stoled my cell phone because you were convinced it was a bomb well hope you are enjoying not being able to use it!!! I think its time for a total TSA and airport revamp before we have a total melt down of are airport security system. Ok I feel a lot better now.
The right decision at the wrong time, is still a wrong decision. "Hal Carr"
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:02 am

Just think Herman'sCVR,

Your tax dollars are paying for these clowns. I believe at most airports they start out at $15.00 an hour which is a pretty darn good living in today's economy, while supervisors make $18 plus an hour and they are non union.

I thought at least these guys would need an education to work there.

The only positive I see that came out of TSA is that you have to be a U.S. citizen to work for them... which is unlike Argenbright which hired Yemeni nationals and could amount of DTW's old security were Arabic and yes they let their buddies thru... I seen non Arabs set off alarms and they would get wanded, but if an Arab set off an alarm, the Arabic screeners would turn a blind eye...

oh wait... TSA does that too because they are afraid of a discrimination suit.

I thought that the TSA idea would be good at first, but I was wrong

At DTW's International Arrivals there are six security lanes, only 3 would often be open when the old company was there and the backups wouldn't be too bad. When TSA came in they opened up 6 lanes and the backups were horrendous.

I thought you needed an education to work at TSA, but the workers there look like they were hired off of the Cass Corridor (real ghetto area of Detroit) or from some of the nearby trailor parks... one of the security women is so big she has to turn sideways to walk thru the detector and she is out of breath by the time she walks from the employee snack room in Macnamara's International transfer area to the checkpoint which is all of about 30 feet. How can she chase down someone who breached?
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:15 am

Now I'm not an expert of what's going on in the US (I'm in Canada) but I have flown through several US airports since the random searches started. It became apparent to me that even if a middle easterner was sincerley picked at random for a search they could cry discrimination and file a lawsuit. Therefore it could be that many TSA employees would be hesitant to pick a middle easterner for a random check because of that reason.

I bet if you took a middle eastern person, put them on 5 flights he/she wouldn't get picked once, take a non middle easterner and put them on the exact flights with the same TSA employees he/she would be picked once or even several times.

Random searches don't work.

When I was flying home from Taiwan my luggage was searched before check in (they do that for everybody), then my carry on was searched before boarding (again, everybody gets that, time consuming though) and then I was frisked before boarding (not everybody got that, I was a foreign male travelling alone so I guess I threw up some red flag).

Regards,
Kris YYC
 
speedport
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sun Mar 09, 2003 6:27 am

If the TSA sees expanding gas expelling from a small tube as a threat, what’s next? Flatulence?  Nuts
 
aloges
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sun Mar 09, 2003 6:43 am

I don't know if this has been said earlier (bit too lazy to read it all...), but AFAIK model rocketry is not entirely prohibited in my country, which usually is first in regulating everything you can think of. My older brother made a little gypsum car in school, when he was some 12 or 13 years old, and it was powered by very small solid fueled boosters. He "launched" it on an empty parking lot. The remaining rockets are still somewhere in my house, but I don't know where exactly. But I hope my home won't be consider a weapons factory... Laugh out loud Anyway, the cardboard wrapping of those boosters showed little airplanes and rockets - which it certainly wouldn't have shown if model rocketry was forbidden. I don't know if some law has changed, but I think it's allowed.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
MxCtrlr
Topic Author
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sun Mar 09, 2003 6:44 am

Herein lies the problem, as described by VonRichtofen and others, the TSA is so worried about a lawsuit for 'racial profiling', that they themselves are threat to security. By not unilaterally applying the rules to everyone, regardless, they become the weakest link in the security chain. I won't even go into the well-publicized problems of scanners being left unplugged, employees sleeping on the job, etc. My wife flew not too long ago and was "random" searched literally four times in the same small room - all within feet of the other security personnel! This kind of stupidity has got to stop. The original requirement included a high school diploma (not something that's too awful hard to get here in the States). They dropped that requirement as being "too restrictive". To put it into perspective, you need a high school diploma (or GED) to go to war for this country in military service, but to secure airline flights, you don't need one! This has got to stop!

I know I've harped on and on about 4th Amendment rights being trampled but, until we speak up loudly, nothing will change. Enforce the rules as they stand (don't allow box cutters or other such items through security) and stop adding garbage to the security process. Now I hear they are talking about scanning for radiation, in addition to the metal screening and explosive sniffing. I agree with Speedport, what's next, flatulence? The way the TSA is going, it will take 5 hours to go through security for a 2 hour flight! AlQaeda won, plain and simple - They wanted to change our way of life here in the States, and they succeeded! Stop the madness!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sun Mar 09, 2003 9:09 am

Thats not going to stop people from shooting off model rockets... I would just advise anyone who has rockets to stock up on the engines now.

As for most fireworks except sparklers they have been banned in Michigan as long as I have lived here but that didn't stop me from getting them. I would just get them elsewhere.

Nope, by doing these kinds of bans you just create a black market society...

That's what happened in the 20s with Prohibition of alcohol and I won't get into my Libertarian views on drugs, but I think the same problem lies in with them being illegal.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sun Mar 09, 2003 9:11 am

Was this another brilliant idea by Tom "Go out and buy duct tape and plastic to protect yourselves from chemical weapons" Ridge?
 
scottysair
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sun Mar 09, 2003 9:25 am

MxCtrlr,

Right. This is exactly you should need get GED or High School diploma, too. And but, I will go on the GED soon into fall at Arizona. This is must to be english communication for work at TSA or anything kind of the your job at the airport. Well, talk ya later!

Regards!

Scott W.
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sun Mar 09, 2003 9:32 am

Sure the authorities are out to lunch. Intuition tells me that every third arab working in the cleaning and baggage department of a major airline has a picture of Osama bin Laden on his kitchen fridge. And none of them are searched going into work. No doubt that's how those box cutters got onboard. I know. I used to work as one. But nobody has the political guts to talk about it, much less do something about it.

But to hell with anybody's "constitutional right" to launch rockets, there are much bigger fish to fry right now. The authorities have to throw the largest net across the country as possible to catch the next dumbass who wants his heavenly reward. Rather than complaining about rights, sign up for the army and do something about the real people that took your rocket rights away.

N.b. internal combustion engines are not chemically powered. Gasoline is refined from fossil fuels.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
MxCtrlr
Topic Author
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sun Mar 09, 2003 10:16 am

First off, by no means do I want to trivialize The Holocaust. I am not comparing the impact of anything the TSA has done, or will do, to those horrendous events, however, a statement made by a Holocaust survivor is quite appropo in the case against the TSA (IMHO)...

"First they arrested the Communists -- but I was not a Communist, so I did nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then they arrested the trade unionists -- and I did nothing because I was not one. And then they came for the Jews and the Catholics, but I was neither a Jew nor a Catholic and I did nothing. At last they came and arrested me -- and there was no one left to do anything about it." [Rev Martin Niemoller (Nazi Prison Survivor)]

To paraphrase...

First they added metal detectors, and I said, "That's OK. It's all for security."
Then they had me take off my shoes, and I said, "That's OK. It's all for security."
Then they took away my liberties, and I said, "That's OK. It's all for security."
Then they instituted "random" searches, and I said, "That's OK. It's all for security."
Then they added radiation screening, and I said, "That's OK. It's all for security."

Then they burst into my home in the middle of the night, with no warrant and no valid reason to do so, other than, "We have the right! It's all for security!"

The point being, if you don't stand up against this garbage now then there may not be a "later" for you to do so!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
hmmmm...
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sun Mar 09, 2003 12:01 pm

When you have to preface your words with a disclaimer like that, your point is not a point at all. I won't bother explaining why comparing the men and women of the US goverment to NAZI Germany is ludicrous. The fact that you would make such a comparison, just to voice your displeasure at having a ban on rocket motors, is proof you have no grasp of reality, nor of the political ideology of the Nazis, nor of any political ideology at all, and it shows that it is you who has evil ulterior motives. You're a survivalist living in your survivalist fastasy world where the biggest evils are:

1. The Jews
2. The US government
3. The US government
4. The US government
5. The Jews

Whatever you do, don't marry your cousin. That makes the condition worse for your offspring.

An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
MxCtrlr
Topic Author
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sun Mar 09, 2003 5:22 pm

Hmmmm...

I didn't think that making such a disclaimer, since there are some VERY thin-skinned people on discussion boards, like this one, lessened the point at all. The very fact that you attack me, without knowing whom you attack, casts suspicion on your grasp (or lack thereof) of reality. Nothing in my posts would point to my being a "survivalist" and, truth be known, nothing could be further from the case. The point isn't just rocket motors, that's small change, the point, my Canadian brother, is by sitting back and saying "its only rocket motors, let's allow them to get away with this one", we become no more effective than the survivor I quoted. Remember, to forget history's lessons, dooms one to repeat them. I was not comparing the US Government to Nazi Germany - I was using the words of a Holocaust survivor about the price of inaction (in any situation). The fact that you misunderstood that point, speaks volumes!

I am not Jewish, and feel that this world needs an enema - its FAR too politically correct. If you call a spade a spade, someone will scream that you're being racist, since "spade" is a derogatory term to some people. (A short aside here to illustrate that point a little stronger, two black women are suing SWA, because a white F/A got on the PA at departure time and said "eenie, meenie, mineie, moe, pick a seat, we gotta go". They claim racial discrimination because that phrase is a racial slur. Get a life!)

If it is considered to be an "evil ulterior motive" to cherish freedoms and the Bill of Rights, then I'm guilty as charged, be it for something as trivial as rocket motors, or being disgusted that the TSA seems to use the 4th Amendment as a doormat. If that shows that I have "no understanding of political ideology at all" then believe what you wish about me.

Lastly, I have no ill will towards any group of individuals, be they Jewish, Arabic, Oriental, black, blue, green or yellow. It is not something I was raised to believe - that one group is superior to any other group. The fact that you twisted a legitimate argument into a racist diatribe, casts some questions on your racist position.

I'm not going to get into a character debate with you. If you feel that I'm some Jerry Springer trailer-trash survivalist skinhead nut who's bent on overthrowing the government, Jews and blacks, and then marry my cousin AND sister and have threesomes with the family watching, then go ahead and believe it! I don't care.

For those who actually understood the post (without needing flash cards and computer charts) take action and voice your displeasure with the TSA over their policies.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
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RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Sun Mar 09, 2003 10:42 pm

I kind of knew soon after 9-11 the government was going to try to take away rights, i am not talking about spotting, I mean bigger issues like our second amendment rights to own guns, search and siezure laws would go out the window and Real American citizens (people that live here that love their country, not some Middle Easterner that becomes a citizen and then wants to blow us up or criticize us) would be the victims of these new laws and the government would just say "we are trying to prevent another Sept 11" while Arabs would be able to get away with everything because people are afraid of lawsuits "Are you searching me because I am Arabic, does that make me a terrorist?"
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:47 am

You see more threat from your own government than you do from terrorists. That puts you in the same category as those human shield protesters in Iraq.

That belief makes you an instant idiot.

You made the comparison between the government banning rocket motors and NAZI Germany. You assert that taking away rocket motors is the first step on a slippery slope to some kind of fascist police state.

Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

Rather than helping your government fight terrorism, you spend your time worrying about what is being done to infringe on your pleasures. You need to get a life. And grow up. And face the reality of the current situation in the world.

Rather than bitch about Osama bin Laden, or Saddam Hussein, you choose instead to bitch about your own government, which is doing all that it can to protect you, regardless of how inefficient some of their efforts may be.


An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:56 am

In 1776 we were under constant attack from the British when America first became a country. What would Jefferson, Washington and Franklin and the other forefathers think about this?

 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:18 am

The most fundamental right, of all humans, not just Americans, is the right to safety and security. Without those two, all other "rights" have no foundation. First you must be safe, than after that, if conditions allow, then you can get into "rights" to do this, that, and the other thing. Even the right to fire rocket motors.

Priorities. Anyone who would put the right to fire rocket motors higher than the right of their government to throw a net to catch terrorists, is someone living in a disjointed universe. This is the universe where ACLU civil rights activists end up meeting with right-wing paranoid survivalist. Strange bedfellows indeed. But the have a common enemy. Your government, staffed by fellow Americans, like your mom, your dad, your brother, sister, and nephew. These people, comprised of your friends and loved ones, are the supposed bad guys taking us down some slippery slope where your friends and loved ones start doing bad things to guys like MxCtlr.

When those planes went into those buildings, nobody was complaining about their rights. At that moment, everyone's vision was clear. But, because it's been 18 months since that happened, some people start to feel complacent again. Time heals the wounds. So much so that they think that the government is more to fear than the terrorists. Until, that is, the next set of planes goes into the next set of buildings. Or worse. Then the vision will be clear again. But only for a few days.

Then the cycle will be repeated. And the government will again be the bad guys.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
MxCtrlr
Topic Author
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:45 am

Again, Hmmmm..., you have missed the point. It's not about rocket motors, its about the fact that the terrorists whole idea was to change the fundamental way of life in America. In that respect, due because of actions like the ever-increasing airport security and stupid little things like rocket motors, the terrorists won. This has nothing to do with "my government is more evil than the terrorists" or "sliding down some slippery slope to a fascist state", its about standing up and protecting ones' rights. I agree with HlywdCatft, what would our founding fathers think of this mess? They created a "government for the people, by the people". I'm certain, in their view of life at that time, they felt their way of life threatened, but instead of building a society of scared people, they went ahead and built an open, free society. To restrict that society today, in any form, is a direct slap in the face.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Mon Mar 10, 2003 2:48 am

You are back-pedalling now. You started off with a warning about the government taking away more and more rights until a dark day approaches and we have gone down the path of Nazi Germany. That was your analogy.

That was ill-conceived. At best.

Then you said that this is about standing up for rights and you invoke glib cliches about the forefathers and the Constitution and all that jazz. Now you suggest that all the terrorists really want to do is to make us repeal our liberties. And that is how they will define victory over the infidel.

Well I got news for you: This is not 1776. The terrorists are not the British government, and their intention is not to hold on to colonies, but to destroy the United States and its people.

Bin Laden has called upon his followers to kill Christian and Jews, wherever they may be found and to continue in this jihad until either they, or us, are destroyed. For them, this is a war of annihilation. They are playing for all the marbles.

So if they can pull off another coupe like 9/11, say destroy a nuclear reactor and cause a Chernobyl-size contamination disaster, they will destroy the US economy and put America, Canada, and Europe into a meltdown of gargantuan proportions. Or worse, if they can get their hands on a nuke, they will destroy New York and with it the United States as we know it. Once that happens, then you'll have a real reason to complain about living in a police state.

And the terrorists will be successful in their aims unless we implement a system to stop them. If we can stop them. So if part of that system means banning rocket motors, then so be it.

The threat to some semblance of liberty comes from the Islamic jihad against America. It does not, nor will it ever, come from the people that comprise the government

An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
MxCtrlr
Topic Author
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:27 am

Looking back from post #1 to now, I don't see any backpeddling. If there is any backpeddling, it is on your part coming from speaking to me like I'm some Jerry Springer trailer-trash cousin-marrying bumpkin, to someone who holds an opposing view from yours (actually, we have the same view but express it differently). As I said before, I refuse to get into a war of words with you on different ideological points of view. You maintain the ideal that, whatever has to be given up in the name of security is perfectly OK. Well, let's see if that view holds up when something near and dear to you is declared illegal under the guise of security. That was the point, not rocket motors (which you obviously missed, and still have missed) or any other seemingly innocent thing like that. Whatever the threat (be it Britain or an Islamic Jihad by radical factions) the rights of free people depend on staying the course and not letting radicals (either from within or outside our government) dictate the way we pursue our lives.

What should also be noted here is that the Islamic Jihad that has been declared on us is not truly "Islamic", it is Al-Qaeda's Jihad. Most people of Middle Eastern descent are peace-loving people, not mass murderers. To call this an Islamic Jihad is a misnomer, just like saying that all Catholics or Protestants are bombers because of what a few do in Northern Ireland to advance their causes. There is no difference. History shows that people have hidden behind religious idealism to advance whatever cause they wanted, all in the name of God, Allah, or whomever. This time is no different.

Rest assured, I will not try to sway you to see my point, as it is obvious that you cannot, or will not, see it, nor will I continue to trade words with you on this subject - it is futile. Keep your prejudices towards me and my stance, it does not matter. At least you have to give me some credit for taking a stance in the first place - something that very few have done with this. When you argue with a pig, you eventually get to the realization that you're getting nowhere and the pig actually enjoys it!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
airhead711
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 7:38 am

RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Mon Mar 10, 2003 4:28 am

Hmmmmmm...

I don't think anyone here has a problem with the government taking acts to protect the security of the country.Whats being said is that the legitimate concerns are being neglected.As in failing to screen any arabs because of fear of being sued.But then they make a big deal out of something that has little or no credibility in preventing terrorist acts,such as closing observation areas and banning of model rocket engines.

The Dept. of Homeland Security is doing everything in thier power to close the back door on terrorist but they are leaving the front door wide open.

And we as citizens of the US are the door mat.

Scott

 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Mon Mar 10, 2003 5:52 am

**The most fundamental right, of all humans, not just Americans, is the right to safety and security. Without those two, all other "rights" have no foundation. First you must be safe, than after that, if conditions allow, then you can get into "rights" to do this, that, and the other thing. Even the right to fire rocket motors.**

What are they protecting me from? 80 year old grannies travelling to get warm in Florida? The average middle class family travelling down to Disney World? That's who this TSA is searching...

While they are searching grandma and the kids, Habib Mohammed Abdulah the butcher and his buddies are walking thru setting off metal detectors covered in their Muslim garb not getting searched or made to take off their head gear because their religion doesn't allow it and the TSA is not wanding them because of fear of discrimination lawsuits.... so lets search the next biggest threat- Grandma who's dentures set off the metal detector... Little Joey has a plastic 2 inch long GI joe gun that doesn't resemble any real gun, lets confiscate it from him make him cry that makes me feel like the oh high and mighty bad ass TSA rent a cop that I am bullying a 3 year old and stealing his toys... making Grandma take out her dentures and confiscating so all she can do now is gum her oatmeal for the rest of the trip. But oh no... I am too scared to search Habib Mohammed Abdullah the butcher because he looks like Osama's twin brother... but oh no... he's a nice upstanding Muslim man, he couldn't be possibly hiding C4 in his shoes, he couldn't possibly have a box cutter in his headgear could he?

Thomas Jefferson, Franklin, Washington and the others would have another revolution if they saw what was happening right now.

This is starting to go off tangent, but didn't part of the reason they had a revolution for the equivelant of a 2 cent tax on tea, and that the British Gvt was taking too much control?

Look at our taxes now, they are anywhere between 25%- 45%

First of all, I think if people like Jefferson and Washington were in charge, our borders would be closed to certain nations so we probably wouldn't have to worry about terrorism... but we are too nice, we give terrorist suspects and non citizens more rights than our own citizens
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:39 am

What should also be noted here is that the Islamic Jihad that has been declared on us is not truly "Islamic", it is Al-Qaeda's Jihad.

Irrelevant. Those that are terrorists are, in their minds, doing this on behalf of Islam. That is all that matters. It is what's in the heart of the terrorists that matter to us.

Well, let's see if that view holds up when something near and dear to you is declared illegal under the guise of security.

Let me use the same idiot logic on you. Let's see if your view holds up when someone near and dear to you is massacred into the side of building. And be honest, if it's a choice between being falsely arrested, or being blown to smithereens, I'd much rather have my loved ones arrested.

Whatever the threat (be it Britain or an Islamic Jihad by radical factions) the rights of free people depend on staying the course and not letting radicals (either from within or outside our government) dictate the way we pursue our lives.

This is what I mean. You see no difference between radical terrorists and those in the US government trying to fight those terrorists. You are labeling both sides as radical. Just as you made a comparison between the US authorities and Nazi Germany. This is where you destroyed any credibility you will have on this argument. Or any other argument for that matter.

At least you have to give me some credit for taking a stance in the first place - something that very few have done with this.

Give you credit for what? For taking a stand where anti-government sentiments are in the majority in this thread? You want credit for that? I'm the one who is taking a stand. Airliners.net is full of those like you. In some countries US government-bashing is the national pastime. And I'll tell you why: Because it's so easy to bitch about the US government when you are safe in your bed every night. You take your safety and security for granted. Your biggest worries are about having your "rights" infringed. Your wake-up call is coming.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: The TSA Strikes Again!

Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:05 am

**Because it's so easy to bitch about the US government when you are safe in your bed every night. You take your safety and security for granted. Your biggest worries are about having your "rights" infringed. Your wake-up call is coming**

More like TSA's wake up call is coming when they allow Habib Mohammed Abdullah the Butcher thru without searching him and searching granny's dentures out of fear that Habib will sue them because he is Middle Eastern and is being stereotyped... but Habib happens to have some C4 in his Nikes or hidden in his backhair and god forbid he walks on board a fully loaded Trans Pacific 747.

Its not that I am bitching about national security... but when the answer to national security is...

A. Telling people to go out and buy duct tape and plastic
B. Closing spotting areas when there are plenty of wooded areas in the landing pattern within range of a shoulder launched missile, thinking that kicking spotters out who will more than likely be a deterrent to a terrorist.
C. Searching Grandmas and 5 year old non middle eastern boys while Middle Eastern people can walk right thru... I'm not just saying your average hard working Middle Eastern American citizen... I am talking about the fundamentalist ones that where the robes and head "towels" and grow the beards - you know guys dressed like Richard Ried.

If that is supposed to make us feel secure and you totally agree with taking away constitutional rights and giving more to the terrorists, then go ahead and keep supporting them.

I have no problem with people searching my shoes, I fit the middle eastern profile and look even though I am not, but I NEVER had my shoes searched... I never been pulled aside getting on an airliner to have my bags searched... never... I don't set off the detectors ever, but I pick up my stuff and walk on to my gate...

But before TSA, I was constantly being searched... my lap top looked at, my phone, pager etc... it isn't now.

So am I supposed to feel safe with our homeland security? I think it is less secure than before 9-11 and now we have less liberties.