J32driver
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UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Feb 28, 2003 1:20 am



By Keith L. Alexander
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, February 26, 2003; Page E02


United Airlines' efforts to improve its finances have moved more rapidly than its bankers expected just two months ago, a banking executive familiar with the airline's financing said yesterday.

As a result, the executive said, United has not even used $100 million of the financing it arranged before filing for bankruptcy protection.

When United filed for bankruptcy reorganization in December, the airline secured $1 billion in financing from four lenders: J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., Citibank, Bank One Corp. and CIT Group Inc. At that time, the banks allowed United to draw half the loan, enabling its operations to continue uninterrupted.

To date, United has tapped only $400 million of the $500 million offered by the four banks. It has, however, drawn on a separate $300 million loan from Bank One.

The banking executive said the airline had no immediate need for the remaining $100 million. "They're ahead of schedule in terms of their cash flow. They have more cash than they originally planned at this point in time," he said, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

United spokesman Jeff Green said the airline has not used the remaining $100 million because "we haven't had a need to." He declined to further detail the company's finances.

To get the remaining $500 million, United has to significantly cut its costs by this summer and maintain a certain level of cash flow. The banking executive said he was optimistic about those efforts but added that United might not need the additional $500 million. "They've made good progress with their cost structure, and I think they're on track to satisfy all of the obligations that the banks had here," he said.

Last month the airline secured temporary wage reductions from its workers, saving it about $70 million a month through May. It is trying to secure long-term concessions, including $2.56 billion a year in pay, benefits and work-rule changes.

United and the unions have agreed to negotiate until at least March 17. After that, the airline can ask U.S. Bankruptcy Court Judge Eugene R. Wedoff to impose the concessions.

Last month Wedoff imposed a temporary 13 percent pay cut on United machinists, after the group refused to join the airline's other employees in accepting temporary concessions.

United is seeking $314 million a year in cuts from its 24,000 flight attendants. That's about $160 million more than the airline originally asked for in December. Jeff Zack, a spokesman for the union, said the group did not support United's cuts. "They're not getting it," he said. "They didn't provide us with any rationale as to why the flight attendants would be asked to pay significantly more."

United pilots began negotiations yesterday. The airline is trying to secure $1.11 billion in cuts from its pilots through 2008. The pilots union declined to comment on the status of those talks.



© 2003 The Washington Post Company


[Edited 2003-02-27 17:25:42]
 
J32driver
Topic Author
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:29 am

Come on people... whered all the anti-united folks go. This has been on here for 4 hours and not a single comment?
 
ba319-131
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:53 am

This is good news for United,its customers and employees.

If the current restraint on capacity continues to be controlled,perhaps there is room for all the majors to co-exist,if somewhat smaller.

Rgds

BA319-131
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SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:55 am

Hooray for United Airlines - if this news is true - which it probably is.

And that's all I have to say.

Kudos.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:02 am

J32Driver they are all on the AA bankruptcy threads sweating it out.

Seriosly though this is good news UA has managed to save money at a time of the year when traffic is at its lowest. If we can pull through March and the self inposed deadlines there, then Spring break and summer revenues should give us a nice cushion.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:25 am

In my personal opinion, I think UA ought to sell its tranatlantic and South American routes--routes that are actually better-served by other airlines. UA should use its Star Alliance connections so most LH flights from FRA/MUC to the USA will have UA codeshare flight numbers. To serve LHR, UA will ask Star partner SQ (who owns 49% of VS) to set up so VS flights from LHR to the USA will have UA codeshare flight numbers also. This means VS will fly more flights out of LHR to the USA (replacing all the UA flights to LHR), and a number of ex-UA 747-400's will be leased for five years to VS to provide this service increase. Also, this may allow VS to eventually buy more A380-800's.

UA should concentrate its international service on transpacific routes, where yields are definitely way higher. UA will keep 20-24 744's for transpacific routes, where the larger seating capacity is welcome on routes like LAX-SYD, LAX or SFO-NRT and SFO-HKG.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:33 am

VS may be owned by SQ but:
1) VS is not in the Star Alliance
2) Sq is a fair weather partner to Star Aliiance anyway.


UA has good connections to Europe and they are making money. The real anchor on the revenue has been Latin America. The depressed economy there the ridiculous loads you have to have to make a profit and the civil unrest in Venezuala make it consistantly the weakest region in UA's structure. Even in flush time Latin America lagged behind all other regions including North America.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
kaitakfan
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:17 am

Its about time a positive side is told on United Airlines. I imagine this thread will stay very very small due to the fact so many people out there who have said over and over again "Its too late now, they can not pull out of this one". Chances are United is going to pull out of chapter 11. Maybe not by summer, but soon enough. It will sure be interesting to see what will happen 6 or so months from now.
 
N79969
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:23 am

I'm one of the ones who think they may not make it until summer...but I hope this article is a harbinger of things.
 
Guest

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:43 am

Read between the lines will you.

Here is a quote from the article: "To date, United has tapped only $400 million of the $500 million offered by the four banks. It has, however, drawn on a separate $300 million loan from Bank One."

Most of you are presuming that this sentence means that UA has been paying all its bills since the filing of its bankruptcy petition and that after paying all those bills (including airport leases and plane leases) it has only spent $400 million of its DIP financing.

This is not an accurate reading of the sentence because the sentence really suggests that United may have already spent $700 million dollars of its DIP financing - $400 million from the four banks and $300 million from Bank One.

Moreover, for the first 60 days of its bankruptcy, none of that money has gone to paying plane leases since United had 60 days in which to affirm or cancel those debt obligations. United has also not been making payments on some gate leases. Despite all that, it might still have spent $700 million. That would be $700 million for how many months in bankruptcy?

Believe it or not, I keep thinking that eventually someone over at United is going to get it and that they are going to figure out a way out of their own mess. I want to believe this because honestly I can't accept the fact that anyone can be this misguided or stupid. But, after reading the transformation plan and wondering how it is that anyone with any strategic reasoning skills could put their faith behind it, I now think that Tilton is as stupid as Goodwin. Meanwhile, the product is getting worse, the employees are getting even more unhappy, and Wall Street is beginning to lose what little faith it had in United. Nothing postive in that, is there?
 
ual777contrail
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:20 am

Nice ladevale,

This is in fact a positive article, and you don't, and couldn't run the company. Why don't you sit back and watch it all happen. The only pissed off people it seems are the pilots. They don't have control of the company and it pisses them off, the mechanics will be a memory soon. Things are getting better, and when the next positive article surface please be the first to spill your crap.
I would say in a month the only thing making news is AA's bankruptcy.

ual 777 contrail
 
speedport
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:22 am

Just remember, there were occasional "good" news stories before bankruptcy. United filed anyway.

From the Deal.com:

"It's hard to reorganize when management is so disorganized," said one attorney following the case. "So far, there has been little out of United that would give reason to believe they know what they are doing."

Also:

"Darryl Jenkins, head of the Aviation Institute at George Washington University, called Starfish "a disaster of such proportions that it could bring down United Airlines." He voiced concern that UAL management's insistence on creating a new unit could drive unions from the bargaining table."

Indeed it has.
 
J32driver
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Feb 28, 2003 11:11 pm

The key idea that I took away from reading the article was UAL has spent less money then they planned. That has to be good.

As for Starfish, I have a little more faith the more I hear about it. The pilot's I talk to say the company has backed down from the threat of hiring a different work force and will bring on the furloughed UAL guys instead. Thats good. That is what will allow Starfish to work. I've also heard that UAL's passengers won't see much of a difference between domestic Mainline and domestic Starfish service.

I still think that UAL could make a killing if they just transitioned to a realistic fare system. Flat fees on a flight with no penalties for when a ticket is bought. Lower the costs to Business flyers, raise the costs to everyone else, and no penalties for standby flights. Then, find a way to make your Check in, Gate ops, and inflght ops stand above everyone else.
 
Transtar
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Feb 28, 2003 11:32 pm

I agree about South America. American and Continental have that region pretty well covered.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Sat Mar 01, 2003 1:10 am

Any positive news should just be dismissed Speedport? Any negative about UA should be taken as fact? Thats what you constantly bring to any UAL discussion.

I read the negative and the positive. Right now there is more positive about UA than negative coming out through the media.

"Starfish" sounds like a good plan. It is not unique. Tango is a model, it has been operating very successfully for AC, a UA partner. UA and AC talked extensively about the Merger w/ US so that they could use what AC learned when they merged w/ CP. There is every reason to belive that UA is learning what AC learned from Tango. We know they have learned from the failures of the past.

I think there are pundits in the media that are paid for there opinion, Some negative, some positive. I don't trust pundits they have their own agenda as well. (Read Michael Critons Airframe). The DEAL.com has been negative on UA from day 1. FYI when should any of us belive what some unnamed attorney FOLLOWING the case (HE ISN'T EVEN INVOLVED) has to say. Hmmm these are open hearings I imagine. Someone with sometime on their hands could follow the case in court and have an opinion. What makes this guy so credible? Learn to question sources. If they stand up to it then they might be credible.

UA is still in trouble, I'm not deluding myself. I just haven't deluded myself into thinking the sky is falling either.

There are many positives to Starfish that "Experts" overlook:

More efficent workrules due to bankruptcy
More efficent use of fleet
Better pricing structure
Managements admittion that UAL can not be all thins to all passengers
Focus on leisure markets (shuttle did not do that)


AS the new name (what ever it will be) suggests this new LCC will NOT be United Shuttle mark II. It will be well thought out and learn from the mistakes of the past.

AFA is negotiating, seriosly negotiating, thats good news. No matter what spin you try to place on it.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
UNITED777ORD
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Sat Mar 01, 2003 4:00 am

THIS IS GOOD NEWS........Now all we need is for management to agree to making more concessions first before they make the concession plea to the pilots, mechanics, flight attendants, ramp workers, and customer service agents. Management needs to set the standard of sacrifice for the rest of the airline. United is Chicago's hometown airline and will continue to be.

-United777ORD-
 
speedport
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Sat Mar 01, 2003 4:01 pm

UALPHLCS - All I have to say is this, fool me once...shame on you. Fool me twice...shame on me.

I, too, ignored the flood of negative stories prior to the bankruptcy filing. I only focused on the handful of good stories. As a result I made a lot of bad decisions which I still regret today and will regret for many days to come.

I vividly recall the TV images of UAL employees crying on the day we filed. On that day I asked myself, why are these people crying? If they didn't believe UAL was going to file before the ATSB's decision, they certainly should have known after their decision. Like deer caught in the headlights of an oncoming car, they stood frozen to what was about to hit them. That day I vowed never to allow myself to be a deer.

Now I scrutinize every piece of news under the cold, hard light of reality. I now force myself to face those things I used to avoid. In short, and to steal a line from a popular song by the WHO, I won't be fooled again.

I no longer accept the future of UAL on face value. I now require proof. Why do I seem so pessimistic? Well, it is because the scales are tipping heavily in that direction is why. Anyone can see it coming, except, that is, deer.
 
LJ
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:15 pm

This is in fact a positive article, and you don't, and couldn't run the company.

But Ladevale can read financial press releases...............

However Ladevale, I think it's unlikely they've drawn anywhere near USD 700mio as the DIP provides expect UAL not to draw on the other USD 100mio. anytime soon.

In short, the article is neither positive not negative as you can read the article anyway you like
 
tsully
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Sat Mar 01, 2003 10:00 pm

Certainly nice to see some more positive press coverage for UA. As we saw just recently, the media cannot, and should not be trusted at face value. I'm referring to Newsweek's report about the Greenwald comeback. This was nothing more than utter rubbish...a whimsical story made up to get attention. Both Greenwald and UA refuted this story on the strongest of terms. I don't care if it's the Los Angeles Times, London Daily Telegraph or the National Enquirer... believe me, they've all got agendas, and their bottom line is paper sales. And sales come from creating interesting articles, many times at the expense of accuracy and truthfulness.

UA is the press' favorite victim at the moment, but when AA enters ch. 11 down the road, that will all change.

My instinct is that United will survive, even if much smaller than it was 5 years ago. I think a management wide reduction-in-pay of say 33% would send a positive message to employees. Right now, you have flight attendants, mechanics, pilots and other employee groups who already earn much less than MGMT, but are shouldering all of the labor reductions.
If pilots (who are taking the largest pay cut) should be expected to embrace their 30% pay cut, let management (who is at the top of the pay scale) take an even larger cut. The flight attendants recently came up with a plan to give back even more. How management can sleep at night knowing they're making $800,000/ year and giving back nothing is beyond me. Granted, most of MGMT works EXTREMELY hard for UA, but don't tell me an f/a doesn't work hard for the mighty $35,000 she brings home. It's MGMT, not the f/a's, pilots or mechanics who should be taking more pay cuts. After MGMT gives something back, let's reevaluate the labor issue. If there's still a need for concessions, we'll talk about more give backs from the unions. Everyone at United looks to Management for leadership through this process, so it sure would be nice to see some real leadership in the form of MGMT concessions.

In the interest of ending on a pleasant note, I'll just say again that I have much faith in United to pull out of ch. 11 in the form of a lean, highly competitive airline. Given the state of the airline industry, it won't be hard for United to regain her stature as the premier U.S. flag carrier. In many ways, United has an edge on the other majors...being months ahead in the reorganization process.

And for the chicken littles out there, don't delude yourselves into thinking the sky is falling only for United. In fact, the sky is not falling, and every other full-service U.S. carrier is in the same boat as United... some (such as Delta, NWA, CO) may simply be farther upstream. They too, will likely hit the waterfall at some point.
Just remember, this is an industry crisis, not merely a UAL crisis.



"Thanks for Flying United. We'll Treat You Like Our Future Depends on It...It Does".



I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
 
heavymetal
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Sun Mar 02, 2003 12:16 am

Great news.

Now the bad news. A war lasting any longer than a month in Iraq will kill United. Dead.
 
speedport
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:37 am

What are these other ‘good’ news stories I keep hearing about?

Is one the AFA proposing 1 billion in cuts over 6 years? What about the fact this proposal is half of what the company needs? What about the fact it doesn’t address the LCC in any way? This is merely a CYA move in anticipation of no agreement prior to the deadline so they have a document to walk into the courtroom with.

Is another one the sale of 747s to Thai for 330 million? Reports are these 747s would go for 1.4 billion new. We are selling them for ¼ that price. If I were selling a perfectly good car, would I sell it for a quarter the price I paid for it? I would if I were desperate enough for money. If I weren’t desperate, I would wait for the market to improve and sell them for a better price.

Is another the approval of Tilton’s compensation package? Let’s see what the judge had to say about that: “Judge Wedoff said rejecting the company's request…would have raised questions about the court's confidence in United’s restructuring.” In other words, this issue isn’t worth casting a cloud over United. However, a flawed business plan is and the judge has chastised United more than once for not presenting more detail on one.

One last thing, UALPHLCS you ridiculed me for quoting an unnamed attorney on Starfish. Well, let me quote attorneys from State Street Bank, you know, the guys United hand picked to manage the ESOP. Its attorneys called United's plan for a LCC "more an exercise in hope than in reality." But hey, what do financial institutions know about business anyway. Too bad we have to go to financial institutions for operational money, isn’t it? I mean, what do they know about risk?

Doth my cup runnith half empty? Or am I making astute observations? BTW, what is that light I see? It keeps getting brighter.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Sun Mar 02, 2003 10:22 am

Speedport, some of your comments lead me to believe that you are a fellow employee. Is that correct? If it is then the following is what I have to say.

If your an employee of UAL and "you won't be fooled again" are you currently looking for another job?

Let's not be hypocritical. If you believe that UA is going bust then you should be looking for another job. Why stick w/ a sinking ship.

There have been a handful of people here in PHL who have left. Left because they see no future at UA. Fine, actually I applaud them. They have the integrity to say I don't like the direction this company is going and I am leaving. I do not respect those who hand on saying: "this company sucks, they treat me bad they are taking everything from me" and insist they will not go to find something better.

I am staying because I've looked at the same articles. I an very nervous about UA's future. But I believe that they are heading in the right direction.

IF your an employee and you don't like the direction UA is going, LEAVE. Your not an indentured servant. UA has no exclusive contract on your labor. Get out while the getting is good.

Speedport if you are not a UAL employee than don't answer the question of why you stay. If you are, I'd like to know why you stick around if your just being fooled.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
speedport
Posts: 269
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Sun Mar 02, 2003 2:21 pm

"Get out while the getting is good."

That's classic. Anyone who doesn't adhere to your rose colored view of things has to quit. Or better yet, let’s fire them. How about this for the new United corporate culture, thought police. Anyone expressing negativity will be eliminated, says so on page 212.

What does it mean to say I won't be fooled again? It means I refuse to accept the sugar coating being applied to current events. This is in contrast to all the sugar coating I swallowed prior to United filing bankruptcy. When airline analysts predicted an 80% chance of UAL filing, I fell in line with the 20%. When they predicted a 90% chance, I fell in line with the 10%. When they predicted a 95% chance, I fell in line with the 5%. Had they predicted a 99.9% chance, I would have fallen in line with the .01%. And do I ever feel stupid for doing so.

I am not going to answer your question because I don't think your tunnel vision would lend itself to any conclusion other than the one you have already made about me or anyone else who chooses to look at both sides of an issue.

Wrong thinking will be punished; right thinking will be quickly rewarded. - A line from an episode of Star Trek entitled "The Menagerie."
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Mon Mar 03, 2003 1:32 pm

AS I said in other posts I am not deluding myself into thinking that UA is not in trouble, far from it. I however have made a decision that for now, UA looks as if it will survive. So I'm going to stay. I also said that I respect those who's opinion was that UA was sinking so they left. They at least have the courage of thier convictions to ACT on thier negative assesment of the situation. You apparently do not. You would rather blame the "corporate culture," UA's management, UA's unions, me, rather than face up to the fact that you are afraid to leave UA. Am I seeing the world through rose colored glasses or are you seeing it in sh!t tinted ones?

I never said that if you think UA is BSing you, you should leave. I never said that you should swallow anything, or toe the company line. I said if you believe that the situation is so dire, why don't you start looking for a new job? I'm asking if you are intellectually honest enough to ACT on your belief that your negative view is the correct one. IF you are not acting on it, why not? Why be miserable when you could leave and find a nice stable job at a nice stable comapny that tells you the truth? That is my question to you, if you have the honesty to answer it. Instead of getting selfrighteous and accusing me of delusions.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Tue Mar 04, 2003 10:20 am

WELL Its been 24 hours so much for intellectual honesty.

Your silence speaks volumes.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
speedport
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:08 pm

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Tue Mar 04, 2003 10:22 am

Why are you so determined to get rid of people who disagree with you?

Could you be trying to avoid your own fears by eliminating those who articulate them?
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Tue Mar 04, 2003 10:33 am

I'm not trying to get rid of anyone.

I'm asking a question. If you where on a sinking ship would you attempt to get off? Your seem to feel that UA is a sinking ship why are you holding on to it?

I think UA is in trouble but it is moving in the right direction. It's too early to know if UA will go down. So I'm staying until I am convinced that UA is hopeless.

On the other hand I know some who feel like you. They have gone after stable positions elsewhere. They feel they saw the handwriting on the wall and left.

Again my simple question is if things are SO bad at UA are you looking for another job? If things are not so bad then stay. You have to decide for yourself if UA is worthless and leave or worth something and stay. I just don't like hypocrites, who think things are terrible but are sticking around anyway.

If your not part of the solution, your part of the problem.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
UA744Flagship
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Tue Mar 04, 2003 11:08 am

Speedport, PHLCS is being perfectly logical.

Why are you bitching and moaning, and yet still at the company? Why the hypocrisy? If you feel this strong about said subject, it is better for yourself and the company that you leave.

Is it that it would give you great pleasure to see the company go down in flames, with the feeling that you were there to see it all being an exhilarating propect?
no wire hangers!
 
speedport
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:08 pm

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Tue Mar 04, 2003 2:34 pm

UALPHLCS - Who are you to say your contribution to UAL is more valid than anyone else's? How much time have you put in? How many different departments have you worked in? How many times have you moved to stay with this company? I'll lay my resume up against yours any day.

UA744 - Stick to your books, kid. The work-a-day world isn't as cut and dry as you think it is.

 
UALPHLCS
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Wed Mar 05, 2003 10:44 am

Speedport,

Why continue to evade the question. It doesn't matter whether I have 3 years or 30. What matters is if YOU see a future for UAL. I see one. So I am staying. You don't, that much is obvious, yet you would rather spew venom at me and Flagship than answer a simple question.

Is it because your afraid of what the answer might say about you?

The Past is in the Past Speedport. Your resume doesn't mean much to UA, it might mean something more to future employers.

I am on your case only becasue you seem so down on the future of UA and yet can't let go of it. If you where really honest with yourself you would take the risk and leave a compnay that is obviously going to have to fire you when it liquidates. Or are you afriad you maybe wrong and then you would have lost that precious senority you built up?

Speedport, just do me one favor. Answer any ONE of the questions I have asked you over the past few days. Just one.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
speedport
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:08 pm

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:30 pm

I seem to have become some project of yours. And just what is my crime?

I am on your case only becasue you seem so down on the future of UA

Yeah, right, like none of us have any reason to feel depressed. If everyone who has doubts about the future, especially with a pending war, left today, as you desire, just how many people would be left to get planes off the ground? Or do you think you could replace all single-handily?

What will make you happy CS? Is it blood you want? Do you want to see me die some agonizing death just because you say jump and I don't ask how high?

I've really struck a cord with you, haven't I? You are wrapped up so tight right now; I can almost hear you snap. Your entire world is wrapped up in the desire of seeing to it that me and my family suffers some how. How is it I've become the embodiment of all the hate you carry around? You’ve got one big chip on your shoulder, pal. I didn't personally cause the bankruptcy, but you desire to see me punished as if I had. This bankruptcy has taken a toll on all of us, but most of all it has made you vindictive against anyone who expresses doubt.

Have I thought about a future without United? You bet I have. Anyone who hasn't is a fool and guilty of neglect to their family. But let me make one thing perfectly clear to you CS, I don't have to answer to you about my future plans.

I am glad, though, to see you are honing your skills for your new roll as a proud member of the thought police. Just how many coworkers have you turned in, or am I your first case?

Don't bother answering. I've grown weary of your myopic drivel. I do, however, want to thank you for giving me something else to think about regarding the future -McCarthyism.
 
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airzim
Posts: 1216
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Wed Mar 05, 2003 6:04 pm

Speedport,

Although I don't work for UA, I have been through other bankruptcies and your attitude is something to be applauded not condemned. Although I am perplexed by the hostility that a CSA in PHL has toward you, I think it is mature and admirable that you are trying to look at things in an objective way. I don't see why it is considered wrong to wade through the press rhetoric and look at the hard reality of facts. Whether UA shuts down or not, I would assume that you are not going to be one of those crying employees at the airport; well at least because you weren't dillusional about shutdown prospects.

Also in regards to people who advocate management taking substantial paycuts, only very few individuals at UA management make close to the figures that are being thrown around here. If you think most people working in the head office are making over $100,000 per year they are kidding themselves.

BTW,

The market cap for UA is right now just over $100 million bucks. US is only $11m. If there ever was a glaring fact is that if I was an investor, UA is worth more broken up then as a going concern. The 744's that UA sold to TG are worth 3 times more than UA is right now.
 
speedport
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:08 pm

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Wed Mar 05, 2003 6:54 pm

Airzim, thank you for understanding how I feel. I don't want UAL to go under, but if it does I don't want it to come as a complete shock to me.

Now that the sunset provision of the ESOP is in the works, and the employees will no longer be owners, the future becomes much more in doubt given our low market cap. This means competing interests can approach the court with their own financing and plan of restructuring. If the judge finds an alternative financial plan more attractive than what current management has on the table, we could find ourselves in a whole new ballgame.

This is about the survival of United, not maintaining current management. If someone else can come in and prove to the judge their plan has a better chance of success, then its bye, bye current management.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:11 am

Speedport, where do you get the impression that I am "wrapped up tight" If anyone is wrapped up tight its you. You get defensive and evasive when ever I ask you simple questions. You think I'm living in some fantasy world I've created for myself. On the contrary if you actually READ my posts I have all kinds of concerns about UA's future. The decision I have made is that I see UA getting through this.

Your position is that UA will not. We can agree to disagree on that topic. The question that I still have not gotten an answer to is: WHAT MAKES YOU STAY? How can you sustain a hypocritical position that UA is going belly up but your going to ride it down till they do?

I don't want blood. I don't what your death. I do want an answer.

Airzim, why if one looks at UA's financial picture must one naturally assume that UA will liquidate. Should we and management just "throw in the towel" now. Why is it that in desperate times the folks of Airliners.net applaud those who just "roll over and die." How mature is it to see a problem and say "there nothing I can do so I'll just complain." What has complaining ever solved in and of itself. I SEE UA is in trouble. There is no denying it. Others could be depressed if they want, just get the hell out of the way of the people who want to FIGHT tooth and nail FOR thier jobs and thier livleyhoods and thier Company's survival. I said once in this thread already, if your not part of the solution, your part of the problem. For those who are "wading through the cold hard facts" and coming up with the conclusion that UA WILL shut down, why are they waiting for it to happen? Airzim, if the handwritting is on the wall, and Speedport is smart enough to read it, why is she hanging around? I'm the delusional idiot who has chosen to stay. But I get attacked for asking the question? I have made my bed and I will lay in it for good or ill, and you call me delusional. Speedport is like a deer in headlights, She says she sees the car coming but refuses to get out of the road, and you applaud her for it.

It is time for some people to decide what they want to do. Get busy fixing the problems, or get out of the way.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
LPL
Posts: 1038
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:35 am

I think LAX-HNL and SFO-HNL
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:47 am

Heh the "current management" is brand new. Funny its always managements fault, but this management hasn't even had time to fuck up yet really.

And to those who think management hasn't given anything back, they already did. They eliminated something like 16% of management positions and the remaining managers took a large cut. That was pre-bankruptcy, but, unlike the offers by unions, it was effective immediately and is still in effect.

N
 
speedport
Posts: 269
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

Just how, exactly, do I "get in your way?" I don't work in PHL. I've never even flown to PHL. This thread has really put the zap on your brain.

Seems to me you are trying to fight with your coworkers vicariously. If you feel some of your coworkers in PHL are “getting in your way,” why don’t you stand toe to toe with them and tell them how they are “getting in your way.” Or have you already tried that, and are now trying to regain your manhood by picking a fight with me over the internet?

You get defensive and evasive…

What? Airzim, a person who has been through a bankruptcy before, posts how he can understand why I’ve decided to look at both side of an issue, and all you do is attack him. Furthermore, I am not being evasive. As I said before, I don’t have to validate ANYTHING with you. You’re not my master. I don’t owe you ANYTHING, least wise an explanation for what I do or don’t do, and when I do it or don’t do it.

Your resume doesn't mean much to UA

What? Just who do you think you are? I bet you haven’t tried that one with any of your coworkers face to face.

You’re a bitter man, CS. The hatred you carry around for has really begun to manifest itself.

That’s it. I’m done with this thread. Don’t bother replying. Even if you do, I won’t answer. You’re beyond a conversation.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Thu Mar 06, 2003 12:47 pm

Thats a shame. To all those who can objectively read this thread: have I been spiteful or vindictive?

My comments have been rational and reasonable. I never attacked personally but I am ruthless to an irrational, or unsupported argument.

Obviously, Speedport is a person who can't differentiate between the literal meaning of "get out of the way" and the metaphor. Lee Iaccoca said in the eighties "lead... follow... or get out of the way." To Speedport he apparently was asking Ford and GM to leave Detroit. Or maybe he was speaking metaphorically.

Maybe rational conversation, and sincere questioning is something Speedport can't handle.

Speedport is a person not used to being questioned and having to defend her POV. Every question that was asked of her was met with venom.

Airzim, if you are out there reread my question to you. Can you answer the questions that Speedport was unable or more likely, unwilling, to answer.

Again I don't attack people. I do attack arguments, those who attack back can expect a well reasoned defence of my POV. Speedport apparently, and sadly was incapable of delivering any foundation for her position.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
jetfixer
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2000 9:20 am

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:00 pm

I will keep this short and brief. My opinion, United's chance of liquidation is high. We are still poorly managed and will continue to be under Tilton.(I've heard many layed off UAL managers are not cutting it on the outside world and are being let go from those jobs too). I have no faith in this company and after 15 years of rape I am really getting fed up.

Will I just quit like someone said I should? NO
Why?
1. Because I love aviation and I love the work I do
2. Because my chances of getting an aviation job right now is slim to none.
3. Because my chances of finding a job earning what I'm getting now is slim in this economic environment.
4. If I were to get aviation job I'd probably have to move (not gonna move mid school year).
5. Because it's my job and my life and I feel more quaified to make decisions on MY life.

So , I'll be staying until
1. United liquidates
2. I get layed off
3. I retire.






[Edited 2003-03-06 05:13:32]
 
speedport
Posts: 269
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:08 pm

Jetfixer – I hear you.

I used to be highly critical of the pilots, and then I became highly critical of the mechanics, no longer.

United as a family is dysfunctional, but still a family. I feel sad for all those who felt their only option was retirement or, through no fault of their own, were furloughed. A lot of good people are out of work. Those who remain continue on in the face of tremendous uncertainty and unbearable stress. Our improved operational performance hasn’t happened because of the filing, it has continued despite the filing. It is a testament to the heart and soul of ALL employees.

I no longer hold a grudge against any work group. For me, all of the old arguments have passed. Neither do I begrudge anyone their feelings, depressed, sad, furious or mad. We are all in the same boat, and it keeps getting smaller. For I know that, in spite of one’s personal feelings, the sweat and hard work behind United’s operational performance cannot be questioned.

I applaud you for your love of aviation. Indeed, it is hard to let go.

For those who have moved on, either intentionally or unintentionally, I wish them well. For those who have decided to hold on notwithstanding the pending war, high fuel costs or ever growing furloughs, God speed.
 
UA744Flagship
Posts: 1433
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Mar 07, 2003 12:29 am

Speedport said (Reply 36):

That’s it. I’m done with this thread.


 Smile Why don't you put your money where your mouth is?
no wire hangers!
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:51 am

Jetfixer,

I can cetainly understand your sentiments. You explained them clearly. While I disagree with your outlook of United and I would definatly contest an unsupported claim that former UA managers aren't cutting it in new positions, I understand your POV and resect your defence of it.

Getting back to your assertion that former UA managers are not cutting it in new jobs:

1) Whats the source of the information?
2) How many managers are we talking about? A couple, a large percentage?
3) Most managerial layoffs are based on thier last manager review. Get a poor review and your out the door first. Wouldn't it stand to reason that if your claim is true its because the Company discharged alot of the deadweight that was hanging around EXO?

There are other explainations for your claim if its true and can be backed up.

I think its too early to call Tilton a poor manager. He's been in the position less than 6 months. I would agree that many employees have little faith in his ability, but I can't see calling him a failure just yet. Really, what has he done wrong. So far he's kept the company afloat despite those who said UA would be dead six or eight months ago. The clowns that got us here are gone.

One last thing Jetfixer, you speak of "Chances" getting a new job. How do you know the chances are if you don't take the risk? Your chances of getting another mechanic job when the market is flooded with ex-UA mechanics will be even less than it is now. I'm not pushing anyone out the door. You made up your mind and you have the courage of your convictions to defend them. But really how can a person know what opportunities are out there if you refuse to look?
I have made a decision to stay, but I hear of openings that might interest me should the worst come to pass. If I found something REALLY juicy I may just follow it up. I will not be pigeonholed into a CSR position for my entire career. Noone has to be tied to one company like some medieval serf tied to the land of his Lord.

Flagship, if Speedport wants to undermine her creditbility some more in this post she has every right to do so.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
jetfixer
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2000 9:20 am

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:22 pm

UALPHLCS
Short on time again, I'll try and respond real quick.

1. I stated my opinion of liquidation is high, not inevitable. It was an opinion, take it with a grain of salt.
2. As for managers, I am not going to name names, companies they are working for or worked for, or names of people who told me. That is not fair. I will tell you this much though. The people who told me are layed off co-workers who have or had them as supervisors at their current work place. They were all former maintenance. They are showing lack of intiative, slow learners, not wanting to get involved, basically not grasping the job and not passing probation. One was going to get fired but the people who he supervised like him so much they tried saving his job. He is still there on an extended probation. As for nubers, six. That I know personally. You're right on lay off based on perfomance so that maybe why.

All the clowns that got us here are not gone, some are gone. A lot of them just got moved around.
Here in SFOMM we are under staffed, they layed of to many and from the wrong departments. Still to much dead weight in maintenance management

Tilton has not yet changed United for the better. And we don't have time. He needs to act fast and now. He can't depend on the judge.
These below are what the old United would have done. These below are also what the new United is doing
1. LCC with separate seniority.
2. Set a negotiation deadline and not try to bargain in good faith.
He keeps saying we have to move on. Well lets move on.

One thing I will say is that the LCC could work. This is one difference between United and other defunct carriers. United is trying to adapt, while others didn't. Labor/management relations need to be improved badly and dividing employees with the LCC is not going to accomplish this.




 
kevi747
Posts: 991
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:30 pm

ual 777 contrail,

I can't say that I appreciate your comment about the only thing that will be newsworthy shortly will be AA's bankruptcy. Everyone here at AA has been sending nothing but good wishes for our friends at United. Good luck to you all!!

Kevin
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Fri Mar 07, 2003 11:50 pm

kevi,
you are so full of crap, people at AA are sending warm wishes of a speedy recovery? You are full of shit. Out of the 90,000 or whatever are employed at AA, I bet 95% want us gone. If all you AA people out here were this nice? We might not have so many UNITED chap.7 posts. But funny right after you slam united you always seem to add, but we hope the best for the employees.
I look foreword to AA chap. 11 here next month.
I don't care to say I hope the best for AA employees, if we chap.7 then you guys will have your day laughing and surviving on your crappy business plan, and lousy management.

ual 777 contrail
 
kevi747
Posts: 991
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:59 pm

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Sat Mar 08, 2003 2:40 am

Goodness!

Yes, its true!!! Ha ha!! We're all over here wringing our hands and tugging at the ends of our handlebar moustaches just waiting...WAITING! for UAL to go under. We can't wait to spit on you while you stand in the unemployment line. To laugh as your cars get repossessed and you're evicted from your homes! To delight in the fact that your children are starving! You've discovered our sinister plan!

Come on, man. Get real.

Actually UAL's the airline with the bad management. There's a real good article about that in this months Airways magazine. Quote: "Never before in commercial aviation history has one airline made so many stupid misjudgments. Never before has a company in this industry blown so many new opportunities, or so completely failed to connect with its customers and employees, or the realities of the market. Frank Lorenzo was but a colorful character and Pan Am a mere blip on the radar screen compared to the spectacular fall of the world's largest airline, United Airlines." But that reflects on the decisions of your upper management and not your front line employees.

I haven't slammed anyone. Many F/A's I work with have friends or relatives who fly for United. I've not heard a single AA line F/A say anything to the effect that they wish United would go under. Quite the opposite actually. We're actually very concerned for UAL employees well-being.

I have to say your not handling this with much honor. Looking forward to an airline going under? That's horrible! I'll still send good vibes to everyone at United, but not you. No, no....you can't change my mind, it's too late for that now. I wish nothing but the best for UAL employees and hope everyone at United gets to keep their jobs...except Ual777contrail.

PS: I participate in this website for fun. There are a lot of dumb people who post in here and you shouldn't take what's written here as the gospel truth.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert
 
J32driver
Topic Author
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri May 05, 2000 2:55 am

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Sat Mar 08, 2003 5:23 am

Kevi747... VERY WELL PLAYED!!!

Ual777contrail... regardless of your perceptions, your comments are uncalled for. Posts like your last are what give the frontline UAL employees a bad reputation.
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Sat Mar 08, 2003 6:19 am

kevi,
I personally don't care if you like my comments or thoughts on this topic. I participate in this forum for a laugh, don't take it all to heart. I do in fact look forward to AA filing chap.11. yes some on this forum feel that the government wont let these two massive airlines go under? Some say they will, I for one would like to see it happen and maybe they will give some help. We don't need your money(govn) maybe help the airlines with security tax. And such.

I for one have never like AA, as far as the employees go? I haven't given it a second thought. Keep believing carty is god, he will fall like the rest.
you get tired of negative remarks from the almighty AA employees, gets old. A man can only take so much before he cracks.
you and I both know AA will never go out of business, and I have heard many AIRLINE employees hope for our demise. You kind of build a callous and deal with it your own way. Refer to ALL of speedports post, she is a cancer in our company.

J32DRIVER,
well played? He didn't hurt my feelings, we all have different opinions. You feel the way you do for 1 of 2 reasons.
1) you work for eagle, you have the love for AA.
2) you probably think that by UNITED going under you may get that chance to fly a real plane.
as far as your lame ass comment about front line employees, we Moved up from 9 to 3 as far as customer service is concerned, 1st for on time. Your comment is full of crap, you and I both know this.
good luck j32, you'll need it.

ual 777 contrail
 
speedport
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:08 pm

RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Sat Mar 08, 2003 9:29 am

I now consider it was the company who lobbied against UA for the loan guarantee, not the employees. However, 777contrail has a point. Let’s be real. If all AA employees were given a choice of AA going chapter 11 or UA going chapter 7, I am pretty confident 99.9% of them would chose the latter. If the shoe were on the other foot, I’m sure the results would be the same. Each seeks that which is most beneficial to oneself.

744flagship - My comment wasn't meant to infer I had been run off this board. Rather, that I was done "conversing" with a certain member of it.
 
User avatar
airzim
Posts: 1216
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RE: UAL... A Positive News Article

Sat Mar 08, 2003 11:21 am

UALPHLCS,

Sorry I actually just flew back from a UA flight from FRA hence the delay.

To answer your question which you asked why is Speedport staying around I can't obviously answer. Could be a host of reasons, pension, union, if she's a pilot not really anywhere to go etc. You seem to assume that by criticizing you are undermining UA at this delicate stage. I think Speedport and perhaps others are just verbally trying to justify in their minds that a company like UA could be in this sort of predicament. Who's to blame, well clearly the answers fall in many areas. In short, every employee at UA is to blame and to feel pitied. One may ask, "How can I the ramp guy possible of made a difference to a billion dollar organization?" Really, lots. You do not have to be lemmings lead by the collar around the block and told to expect grandeur. You have to seek it yourselves. Pilots, F/As, management, the organization has a voice and a vote. Speedport (I assume) is exercising her right to use it. Pointing fingers never solved anything but asking pointed questions stirs debate and looks for solutions. I would doubt that most UA employees want to see UA go down. There is nothing to gain.

I'm sorry, showing on-time performance for 2002 doesn't bring money in the door, especially when you are padding your block times to do it. Which incidentally increases your costs. The hard reality is it is too late, it doesn't matter. I remember TWA doing the same thing, winning customer service awards that amounted to nothing. You can't take reliability to the bank.

UA's costs are too high. They are not cutting them to the satisfaction of the banks or creditors. Employees are unwilling to make concessions. Your as good as dead unless you change.