sleekjet
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Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 12:42 am

II Cor. 4:17-18
 
carduelis
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:21 am

Quite right!

If the grandparents can't control the child, they should not be left in charge!

Airlines are not infant playschools, they are commercial operations - and very expensive at that. The AZ fare would be miniscule to the cost of offfloading bags, delaying the flight, and doubtless delaying its next rotation, etc, - apart from the hassle for all the other well behaved 99.9% of the passengers!

Can't see why the cabin crew offered 'extension junior lapstrap' when a child aged two has his own seat - and ANY seat belt would constrain the little *!
Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
jsnww81
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:28 am

I don't have children yet (not even married or out of school) but when I do, I'm going to use the same procedure my mother used on me: cough syrup.

Kids like the taste and a single dose will put them to sleep for a few hours. When I was very small, we would regularly fly 8 hours on a DC10 (from DFW to HNL) to see family. My sister and I both got cough syrup and were quiet and well-behaved the whole flight.

I'm not advocating drugging children. There's a difference between doping up your kid and taking steps to ensure that the passengers around you (who have also paid money for the flight) get the peace and quiet they deserve.

A lesson this kid's parents should take to heart...
 
jcs17
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:33 am

Damnit, Sleekjet, you beat me to it....

BA was right in off loading the grandparents and the child. If you cannot restrain your child or even get them to buckle their seatbelt, they ought to be kicked off the aircraft. Not only is it a safety hazard to have an unbuckled child on the aircraft, but a misbehaving child causes annoyance to nearly everyone else on board. I'm sure that all of us can count the times when we wanted to go find the parents of the misbehaving child on the airplane, and tell them what crappy parents they are. I was always a good little boy on airplanes because I liked flying so much, I would just sit quietly and look out the window the entire flight.

Jsnww81, I am calling social services right now, thats child abuse!  Big grin
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airlinelover
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:36 am

We had a flight recently where a kid kept JUMPING up and down on the seat and trying to grab the seat in front of him and hang on, while taxiing, and the captain had to come out, and, well, from what I am told, he scared the life outta the little brat..Sat there the WHOLE flight without a sound  Smile

Anyway, don't we all (the Flight crew and Pax alike) just LOVE those day care flights??????????????? My personal favorite are when the parents or whoever let the kid run up and down the aisle from row 1 to 35 just crashing into ppl as much as they want.. Yet when a drink spills on their head, they whine and cry like they were hurt..  Big grin

Chris
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:44 am

I am SO thankful that everyone here sees BA's actions as appropriate!

Air carriers are responsible for the safety, well-being and comfort of ALL their passengers, period.

If even one is being disruptive, regardless of age, they have a responsibility to the other customers to get that person in compliance or have them removed from the aircraft.

Bravo, British Airways! It's high time that other carriers stopped rewarding bad behavior and/or poor parenting by accomodating it and inconveniencing others in the process.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ouboy79
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:54 am

Here's a solution...birth control.  Big grin

Breeders and their breeding of out of control children.  Smile
 
standby87
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 2:05 am

a.net children are always well behaved!
My daughter was in the air before she was 2 months old and she's now perfectly behaved, it's a pleasure to fly with her. Takes her rucksack off at the Security Check, puts it through the X-Ray machine, shows her Passport, finds her own seat (a window please), was fastening her own seatbelt at 3 years old, and she only complains if the Inflight Entertainment's rubbish and she's finished her book! Yeah, she was difficult at around 2 years old, but no where near as bad as some brats I've seen.

In this case, it's easy to say, but I would guess the kid wasn't a regular flyer and his Grandparents should have took the time to explain to him what was going on and what he's required to do.

Failing that, drug them pre-flight like Jsnww81 suggests.
 
kevi747
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 2:31 am

Today's parents are so scared of kids. This kind of thing has happened so many times on flights that I've worked. The parents just look up at you, shrug and say, "She won't listen to me." It's so frustrating.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert
 
An-225
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 2:32 am

I was on a business trip to El Paso, TX back in July of 2002. I was flying America West DEN-PHX-ELP with around one hour layover in Phoenix. On the way there, their 737 was just packed. Of course, with my luck I ended up with a child behind me, who was annoying as hell. What is with kids kicking the seat in front of them? What was ironic though, is that his mother was reading him a book about manners, which involved 3 or maybe more bears. Apparently, Bears did not tell the kid that it was inappropriate to kick the seat in front of them..

On the way back, I was flying in their Cardinals 757, and a young couple was almost late for the flight - as soon as they got in, the door closed. They had a small child who would not stop screeming during the entire flight. That's irresponsible parenting, in my opinion.

Alex.
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 2:48 am

Excuse me. But BA's actions were far from appropriate. Yes, they may have had the right to offload the family, but to make them pay for another flight? That is a tad (in fact, way too) harsh.

Its a fricking 2 year old. I remember what it was like when I was 2. And, unfortunately, it seems I am all too often surrounded by 2 years old (particularly here on these forums).

Although, I am not a parent, I am wondering how many of the people on these forums who are critical of a 2 year old, have kids themselves (or are even old enough to be able to create a kids)?  Insane

Again, BA proves they really are Bloody Awful!
 
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:03 am

Yes, they may have had the right to offload the family, but to make them pay for another flight?

Aviatsiya-

C'mon now, don't you think you're being a bit harsh? First off, airlines reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, so they didn't even need a reason to kick them off the plane.

However, they DID have a valid reason. This child was creating a safety problem onboard, and the grandparents' inability to maintain control over the child constituted both a safety concern AND a customer service problem for the other passengers.

It's logical to assume that the airline personnel believed that since the grandparents already exhibited a total lack of control over the child, there was no sense in booking them on a later flight, since the same problem would likely be the end result on that next flight.

So, BA did what they thought was right, which was to deny boarding and refund their money in full.

At that point, it's up to the customers to find their own way home.

[Edited 2003-03-12 19:42:40]
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:27 am

What this little brat and many others like him needs is a quick smack on the backside. I am continually amazed by the lack of discipline that I see parents administer to their children. When I was little, and I got out of line I was told only once to stop. If I failed, I got it! Looking back on those days I deserved what I got.

They just don't want to offend others or little Johnny or Marcello. I'll be damned if I let a little snotty nose kid or his ignorant grandparents delay my schedule.

Whack 'em! (softly, to make it know you mean business)

At BA, you delay, you PAY!



"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:50 am

EA CO AS

There is nothing mentioned in that article about BA refunding any money; only that they refused them tickets on a later flight, and the family then had to shell out more money to AZ.

Right or Wrong?

Well BA might have a right to refuse service, but to say that a 2 year old was creating a safety problem is going a bit too far also. With all the time that was spent with the delays, the kid could have been calmed down and probably asleep.

Also, one doesn't know how the cabin crew handled the situation. Were they gentle and calm or more terse in handling the situation?

I have an 19 month old nephew, and at times he can be a right little shit. But give him a few minutes to calm down, and he is as good as punch. Although I can only imagine what he will be like in 5 months time.  Laugh out loud
 
LMP737
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 4:02 am

Aviastiya:

Time is money in the airline industry. If these people could not handle the child then BA was well within it's rights to do what they did.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
goingboeing
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 4:05 am

Aviatsiya -

As a parent of a 10 year old child who has flown since she was 6 months old - by the time a kid is 2, they ought to know that throwing a tantrum will get them nowhere. That behaviour is encouraged when parents give in to the tantrums and give the kid what they wanted in the first place. They start playing this game pretty early in life, and you have to nip it. Yes, the noise can drive you crazy during this period, but the kids are pretty quick to learn...if they find that all the tantrums in the world won't get them their way, they'll soon stop throwing them. On the other hand, if the parents give in to them, they learn even more quickly that just a few minutes more should get them what they want.

And if the kid would have just tantrumed out and fallen asleep, what's to say he wouldn't have awakened a few minutes prior to arrival and tossed another tantrum because he didn't want to wear his seatbelt? And what if the little tyke was injured during the landing because he wasn't strapped in? Here in the USA I can pretty much assure you that a lawyer would have been contacted and an airline sued.

I have an idea that EA CO AS is correct, their money most likely was refunded. It just doesn't sound as good in the papers to mention that.
 
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 4:27 am

There is nothing mentioned in that article about BA refunding any money; only that they refused them tickets on a later flight, and the family then had to shell out more money to AZ.

Yes, although no airline will refuse to provide service and also keep the money as well.

It's probable that the passengers, in their quest to tell their story as loudly as possible and make BA look as bad as possible, conveniently forgot to mention that BA refunded their money in the process.  Insane
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
MSY-MSP
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 5:38 am

At least from my experience, the problem with a lot of parents today is that they are afraid to discipline their children. As Clipperhawaii said, in the good old days, you acted up once, and then were put in your place. That may have been a quick spanking or slap on the wrist, but it was enough to put you in your place. However, in the US, parents are afraid to touch their kids when they are disciplining them, for fear of being accused of child abuse. This is particularly true in public places, where the "concerned citizen" will more likely call social services if they see this. On an airplane or any public place, the parent should be able to discipline their child without fear that the police will come down on them. Time out, just won't work in certain situations. A simple slap or spank should get junior to behave. I am not advocating beating junior to submission, but a quick action to get the needed response. I think what BA did was the correct action. If the child's guardian cannot get the child to behave, and other authority figures cannot either, then offloading the offending party is the practical and correct response. I don't know if any US airline would have the gaul to do this, but if it happened more often we might see more responsible parenting, and better behaved children. Those are just my thoughts.

MSY-MSP
 
airlinelover
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 7:22 am

Aviatsiya- BA's actions were very well done. The other day, on one of our flights, we had a frikkin kid sitting near the rear of the a/c, and he was screaming so LOUDLY for 3/4 of the flight most of the F/A's in the rear (myself included) could NOT hear the PA announcements.

Also, in flight one time, I forget what the routing was, there was a family travelling. Mom, Dad, and SIX KIDS.. ALL younger then 10.. And guess where they sat? The kids : 1 ABCDEF, the parents: 2AB... I walked up to the front for something, and the kids threw OPEN water bottles at me.. It was only water,b ut could have been something else. But are we allowed to say anything? No. Beucase if we do, they will scream cruelty, and sue or whatever.

Whoever said it: The answer is BIRTH CONTROL.. OR drug them before flight..

Also, I am NOT saying I was a perfect child. No one was.. But I'd wager that MOST ppl my age (I am 24) were not as out-of-control as that kid. I knew when to behave, and when I could have more "Fun". but then, my parents were responsible. I honestly hope BA does NOT refund their $, and this should be a message to everyone.. KEEP CONTROL OF YOUR KIDS..

I wonder what would have happened if the kid bit the F/A while trying to settle things.. Fun, huh?

chris
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LFutia
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 8:18 am

Flew KLM from AMS-DEL in August '02, have a screaming 3 year old child 3 rows ahead. his parents only kept him occupied for 30 minutes before he started screaming for the whole 8 hours. It really sucks because people are trying to sleep and you can because of a screaming child.

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RP TPA
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 9:17 am

I used to have a lot of experience dealing with infants and toddlers when I worked at the airport. These kids would just whine, scream, carry on, and wouldnt quiet down until either they were tired of screaming or you pacified them with what they wanted.

By the way.....I'm not talking about 2 year olds. I'm refering to our top frequent flyers who wanted a complimentary upgrade and didnt get it.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:27 pm

ClipperHawaii, you're right however, in today's far-too-politically-correct world, spanking kids is a major no-no. Some label it child abuse! Hogwash! It's attitude correction and is definitely needed. I was walking through a mall one time with my then-2-year-old daughter who was putting on one whale of a tantrum. I spanked her quickly (and lightly - just enough to get her attention and let her know I meant business) and she stopped. Someone walked up to me and told me not to hit her as it would break her spirit! I told him to mind his own damn business before I broke his "spirit". Point is, whatever you do to make your children well-behaved, be it discipline or cough syrup, someone will take offense to it!

I think BA did the right thing here for both a safety-of-flight issue and a customer service issue. Too many of us have been stuck in the "screaming baby section" and can sympathize with what the other pax on this flight were going through!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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Snoopy
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:45 pm

"Someone walked up to me and told me not to hit her as it would break her spirit! I told him to mind his own damn business before I broke his "spirit"."

MxCtrlr, I agree with your solution to the problem. But unfortunately there are too many do-gooders out there, many without kids, who would have been quite prepared to report you to the police and have you arrested on the spot. Heck, I used to get whacked on the backside with a hairbrush when I was real bad...I don't feel any lasting after effects. But I would like to think that I learnt the difference between right and wrong real quick!

The problem with young kids is that parents, particularly ones that do not fly often, are not really aware of what can cause kids to yell & scream when they are flying. A bit of a cold and you are already at risk that the kids ears will be hurting so much that even screaming doesn't give any relief! There are other things too. I'm all for tolerance, but when it starts to inconvenience a whole aircraft then it's beyond tolerance. On the face of it I think that BA did the right thing if they thought that there was no way the child would simmer down. Maybe they should have tried again (assuming they had space on a later flight), but I guess it's a snap decision based on the situation, the behaviour of all concerned and the probability of a re-occurence. So, all in all, none of us are really in a position to be judgmental.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:51 pm

The grandmother says she is not going to fly BA again...

Geez, I think BA is really begging now for some old milkshake one foot out of the grave and their little brat to fly on their airline.
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 2:49 pm

I first travelled at the age of 3 months to when we moved to Barbados to live. From to the age of about 12 I was on a plane 3 times a year. Since then about an average of twice a year. Choosing date and time I wanted to travel since 7.

I agree with BA, having a child screaming is annoying and when it gets out of control as it did in this case you need to kick the chile and the ill equipped parent/guardian out of the plane....

I cant understand what it is with these people and their children. It has totaly become out of control. If your child doesnt know how to behave and you need to do like what Jsnww81 talked bout drug them so that they wont get on like some child from hell in other words they would be calm when they have to fly. If it was me though nothing like a hard slap.

A more realistic attitude needs to be taken because all of this special glove treatment when dealing with children is only helping these talk shows and shrinks get more money.

Eagles Soar!
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 2:59 pm

This kind of behavior is not strictly limited to airlines. My wife worked for years as a waitress and some of the absolute abhorrent behavior I've witnessed by little kids, with their parents either condoning it or just plain ignoring it, is unbelievably.

I watched one 5-year-old boy, be allowed to literally jump from table to table, across the booth dividers, while wielding two sharp steak knives and screaming at the top of his lungs. The parents sat back and giggled about his "cute" behavior (that is until the restaurant owner told them to keep the boy in check or leave now. When they refused and got indignant about it, they were escorted out by the local police department, who frequents that restaurant often)!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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fpdonald
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:09 pm

OK, guilty of scanning this thread . . . but the same training.

Anything unsecured, and launched at speed, is a cabin threat. Yep, no matter how tight Mom's grip, it IS a missile. Carts have mushrooms, bags either have bars, or overhead compartments, Moms, Dads, and beyonds, seatbealts . . . one babe, no matter how charming, but unrestricted is a threat. Training, truth, fact.

Vogue is the key here, seemingly. Mum and Dad from Blackpool, no news.


 
gigneil
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:15 pm

I think this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. The kid got scared and hopped under the seat.

The article specifically says he didn't scream or cry or throw things, and it doesn't even sound like he was being disruptive to anyone. He just didn't want to put his seat belt on.

He probably would have been fine in 5 minutes, which would have been far better than taxiing back, parking the aircraft, bringing up the gate, getting them off, closing the gate, and offloading their bags.

If I were 2, and I had a bunch of strangers yelling at me, I'd do the same thing. This sounds like the airline badly, badly mishandled it.

N
 
fpdonald
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:29 pm

Article!

How long was it . . . how did the parent/guardian react? How long do we wait? At some point a decision had to be made, and it was. At that point, it's too late to return, even if Mom sees sense.

You don't board a drunk at LHR in the hopes that he'll sober up in two hours, he probably won't. Similarly, I assume with due reason, you cannot expect a parent that refuses to secure a child on take off that he/she will do the same on landing in two hours. An unrestricted child is a hazard, believe it or not.

Probably, all probability, this spanned more than 5 mins, but even if not, time is money. I'm sure the crew spoke to the parents/guardians, how they took it is what led the decision. An example was made.

I've seem similar, many, many times . . . most are resolved, timely or untimely. There's always some folks that you can't appease, and seemingly this was once case. Bravo! They won't fly BA again, so they'll fly Alitalia . . . their safety/situation was obviously different.

Essentially dumb, but a captains call. It happens daily, this one made news because of a child, Italy, BA and the mention of Vogue.

They'll be others.

 
Andreas
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 5:24 pm

Quote:
Geez, I think BA is really begging now for some old milkshake one foot out of the grave and their little brat to fly on their airline.

That's sick, absolutely sick, do you always talk in such an unrespectful way about other people?? I guess you're trying to sound cool...well you sound disgusting!!

btw: Yes, most carriers are currently begging for anybody to fly their airline, just in case you didn't notice! But obviously you're more into insulting people instead of thinking straight!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Scand
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Thu Mar 13, 2003 6:02 pm

This was an interesting thread. I have a 2 yr old my self, and he has a really nice habit when we go flying. He falls asleep. He usually sits trough the take off falls asleep during climb out and wakes up right before landing, no matter how long the flight is. Only once during our last flight a 1,5 hr flight from CPH did he loose it. What I did. Told him to shut up sit down and strapped him in good. This story with the grandparents sound like the couldn't control the child, grandparents are often more soft on discipline than the parents are.

Scand
 
LAXFlyer
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RE: I Agree With You 100 Percent Gigneil

Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:28 am

Congradulations Neil! Of all the posts made on the subject yours was the only one that made sense. There is a right and wrong way to handle a situation like that. BA choosed the wrong way. Would it have really hurt for one of the FA's to take a few minutes to offer a soothing voice and an explanation in a tone and context that he could understand? Trust me they do understand. I do it all the time and 99 percent of the time it works. Instead they opt for bringing on board the police, making a scene, and making a bad situation even worse. Also, all you wizbangs that offered suggestions ranging from popping his behind to drugging a child, I sincerely hope your not a parent. I do believe in punishment and my six year old son in his short life has had his behind a little "redder" from acting out but some of the suggestions are outright child abuse. I feel sorry for the child. All it would have taken is a crew using thier head.
 
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:34 am

BA choosed the wrong way. Would it have really hurt for one of the FA's to take a few minutes to offer a soothing voice and an explanation in a tone and context that he could understand?

Ok, first off....choosed?  Nuts

Secondly, it sounds as though the decision to deplane the customers came AFTER the FA's attempted to resolve the problem, and AFTER the Captain was involved as well.

Exactly how many minutes should a major air carrier spend attempting to soothe a child's nerves? Five minutes? Ten? Twenty? Exactly how long is appropriate to delay everyone else on that plane just so that little Marcello feels comfortable and well-adjusted enough to put on his seatbelt?

BA handled this appropriately. Case closed.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
carduelis
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:46 am

As a listed FA, your comments appear most strange.

Criticising BA staff, who are well trained professionals, is hardly the way to continue this thread. Neither you, I, nor anybody reading this thread, were present, so everything is based on yet another biased newspaper report, doubtless written by some hack who also wasn't even near the aircraft.

Personally, I believe that any cabin crew/flight crew/Captain should have done the same thing. I'm not into punishing any child, but this child was mis-behaving and its guardians were obviously not capable of controlling it. That's the way it appears, so I'm not blaming the irrational two-year-old child - it's grandparents were at fault, and as such they were disrupting the flight.

Goodbye!
Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
carduelis
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 4:08 am

Just to re-warn everybody about prowling hacks on 'airliners' the following has just appeared on Sky News Headlines - it is only a day late, and of course even more embellished!

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-12267904,00.html

Edited as I've just re-read the above article which says BOTH the child AND it's grandmother refused to buckle-up! Nuff said!




[Edited 2003-03-13 20:18:00]
Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 4:29 am

BA/AA all the way!
Go big or go home
 
LH423
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 4:56 am

I will stand by my company's actions on this one. Especially after reading the Sky article, I can just see the two grandparents smiling endearingly as that ugly, shaggy-haired kid hid under the seat. Don't mean to be mean here, but the fact is, it is clear that the grandparents did not do enough to get the kid to behave. How hard is it to get a kid from out under an airplane seat?! They did not make the effort, and only when they get booted from the plane did they get young Marcello. I'm sorry, but this episode is one whose time has come. You can't control your kids, you can't fly.

BA was completely legal and appropriate in these actions.

LH423
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mikephotos
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:18 am

It's funny reading these replies, you can certainly tell who has children and who doesnt...thats for sure.

Michael
 
carduelis
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:29 am

Michael

Whilst every is entitled to their opinion, whether you have children or not is irrelevant. Did you notice how many contributors were FOR the BA case, and how many Against! I can hardly believe that the MAJORITY don't have kids - or did I get you wrongly, maybe you feel they DO have them?

The safety of the pax and aircraft is the prime consideration. The is no place for ANYONE on a flight who disrupts the trip! Full stop!

BA's Cabin Crew and the Flight Captain did a totally professional job!

Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
mikephotos
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 6:09 am

I don't know and honestly don't care to know the full story so I did not comment if I was for/agaisnt the BA action. I just love when people without children make comments like "there should be no crying children on planes". Yeah okay, call me when you (not you Carduelis) have children of your own and we'll see how that goes. Kids will be kids and I don't care how much control you think you have over them you will never have full control. Yes, if the child was so disruptive where a normal flight could not take place fine but if (and some here do) you believe that a crying kid is reason enough you're mistaken. I've seen worse from adults...have you ever been on a JFK-SJU flight?

Michael
 
gigneil
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 6:11 am

The point I was trying to make is that the captain's actions further delayed the flight and cost the airline more money.

A little compassion vs. a hardass approach is almost ALWAYS the appropriate action. You send a thug squad of F/As to pressure a 2 year old, then you get what you get.

None of us, and I do mean none of us, were there. Therefore none of us can have a valid opinion since we don't know what the actual circumstances were.

N
 
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 6:28 am

A little compassion vs. a hardass approach is almost ALWAYS the appropriate action.

Agreed, but the time for compassion is not at a critical phase of the flight such as right before takeoff. This plane was on its way to the end of the runway and came back to the gate because of the grandparents' inability to control the child. The time for compassion had passed. Now it was time for immediate compliance.

Do you think a captain wants to ask ATC to give him a minute to go back and gently ask little Marcello if he'd be nice enough to put on a seatbelt?  Insane

So, I maintain my question...how much time can a major air carrier afford to spend being compassionate and doing their best to soothe the rattled nerves of a 2 year old before they finally have to say, "Ok, this is getting us nowhere," and kick the family off?

Five minutes? Ten? Twenty? More? At what point do you finally determine that it's in your best interest to provide good service to the 121 or so OTHER paying people onboard by removing the three who are causing a disturbance?

Could this have been handled better? Yes, absolutely...BEFORE the crew had to get involved, by the grandparents hauling the little bastard up by his collar, planting him in the seat, and fastening him in.

They could not or would not handle the matter, so the crew had to.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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HlywdCatft
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 7:04 am

No matter where it is, airlines, restaurants, grocery stores- parents need to keep their brats in check.

George Carlin said it best- You might find your kids cute, but nobody else does!
 
mikephotos
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 7:12 am

No matter where it is, airlines, restaurants, grocery stores- parents need to keep their brats in check.

And the same can be said for kids needing to keep their parents in check as well. I've been on many flights and honestly find adults to be more disruptive than children.

Michael
 
carduelis
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 7:57 am

Neil

'The point I was trying to make is that the captain's actions further delayed the flight'

THE REASON for the delay was that TWO pax refused to fasten their seat belts, thus making the departure utterly UNSAFE! I'm sure you don't need to be reminded that the Captain is responsible for the safety of pax, crew, a/c!

As I have said before, we not playing kids at kintergarden, we're travelling on a highly sophisticated aircraft that could be brought down by STUPID irresponsible passengers!



[Edited 2003-03-14 00:02:47]
Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
Snoopy
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 8:09 am

"As I have said before, we not playing kids at kintergarden, we're travelling on a highly sophisticated aircraft that could be brought down by STUPID irresponsible passengers"

Carduelis, please let's get real! The reason passengers are told to put their belts on is for their own safety and to protect airlines against liability suits. It has nothing to do with "bringing an aircraft down".
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 10:57 am

"Carduelis, please let's get real! The reason passengers are told to put their belts on is for their own safety and to protect airlines against liability suits. It has nothing to do with "bringing an aircraft down". "

Right. Let me expand on it a little.

It is there to

1. protect the passenger
2. protect other passengers
3. protect property

You are told during preflight briefing (and YES! it IS a briefing!) that you are required to wear them during taxi, takeoff, and landing, and anytime the seat belt sign is illuminated. This is a Federal (in the US) requirement, and by not doing so, you are breach of these rules, and can be fined accordingly (FAA minimum is $10,000). Also, since the airline is required to give you these briefings, they are releasing themselves from liability becuase you refused to listen, or refused to follow directions. So, even if you wanted to sue them, you would have nothing against them.

Also, the reason why we have seatbelts in aircraft, is becuase one of the early aviators hit turbulance, and was TOSSED out of his plane.

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carduelis
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:42 pm

Hi guys!

Ever heard of a 'loose cannon' on a ship?

Any unrestrained object on an aircraft can be potentially lethal, thus making the Captain bring the aircraft down for safety and medical reasons.

A l o n g time ago the briefing used to include 'remove any false teeth'!


Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
4holer
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:43 am

Interesting link/ story to see since "drugging" a boisterous child was mentioned above.
A NW FA is in hot water after allegedly spiking apple juice with Xanax for some brat.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/03/14/spiked.juice.ap/index.html
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Toddler Tantrum Grounds Jet

Sat Mar 15, 2003 1:33 am


As an airline employee, good for them, I am glad they kicked them off of the airplane!!

As a potential customer, I am even more excited that they kicked the little brat off of the airplane!!!!


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