Guest To Stay?

Thu Mar 13, 2003 9:23 am

Hey guys (and gals)

My airport is served entirely by turboprops. I continue to hear rumors that the feeder airlines are phasing them out! However, as some of you may know, ASA (DeltaConnection) is in the process of refurbishing their fleet of EMB-120 Brazilia turboprops... given them a new interior and Delta's New New paint job. Are the feeders really pushing toward all jet fleets?

Really Appreciate any info Big grin
Posts: 626
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 8:06 am

RE: To Stay?

Thu Mar 13, 2003 9:34 am

Look at Air Canada Jazz. They have to be one of the largest turboprop operators, and their percentage of nonjet to jet aircraft is quite impressive, albiet they do have some 146's and CRJ's.
Mitchell Gant
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2000 12:38 am

RE: To Stay?

Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:01 am

Interesting topic. What do the major carriers have planned for their turboprop affiliates? Continental Express is now all jet, but will all of the other majors turn their backs on props as well? Any truth to the rumor that American Eagle is getting rid of all of their props? What about ASA, Skywest, Mesaba, etc?

I can't help but think there are many markets that simply cannot be profitably served with an RJ....for example, CO announced they are dropping VCT and ILE, which had been props then became RJs.
Posts: 5076
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:10 am

RE: To Stay?

Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:04 am

I heard recently on this forum that Chicago Express is looking to upgrade to jets... when times get better.

I agree with Gant- there has to be somewhere that you can profitably serve with a prop, but not a jet. Especially when you take into account the inherent fuel INefficiency of the jet engine... Sure, they're better now-a-days, but not like props.

Posts: 10166
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: To Stay?

Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:09 am

Not all regional carriers are going to become all jet. However some are.

Air Wisconsin is going to phase out all of it's Dornier 328s. Skywest intends to do the same with it's EMB-120s.

"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
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Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: To Stay?

Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:22 am

There are some smaller markets, especially in the Rockies, that demand turboprop service as jet aircraft (except maybe the BAe-146/Avro RJ), hence you will see some props still around. Props are also more better suited on lighter-capacity routes where even a 35 seat RJ might not be able to make money.

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Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: To Stay?

Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:57 am

I wouldn't be surpised to see the brand name regionals go all jet (as CoEx did), with more making agreements with Bigsky type airlines for smaller communities
When in doubt, one B pump off
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 10:39 am

RE: To Stay?

Thu Mar 13, 2003 11:01 am

I think Turboprops will see greater use in Europe, where there appears to be a little less of a stigma attached to them. Here in the United States, customers want a jet (preferably a 777 with all first class config.) on all of there flights. In fact, I have seen cases where people will actually drive two (or more) hours just to avoid flying on a turboprop.

T-prop service will continue, but it will be fairly limited in the future unless the public's perception can be changed.
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

RE: To Stay?

Thu Mar 13, 2003 11:04 am

I think the rush to be all "jet" regionals have subsided. Regionals,such as AE are finding out those paid for Saabs are cash cows,and are much more efficient in the 150nm range than any RJ. Thats the reason COEX had to drop some cities,were not profitable for them to fly them at such ranges.......Economy is not helping either.
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Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 11:31 am

RE: To Stay?

Thu Mar 13, 2003 12:29 pm

Here in Australia the turboprop is very dominant with the regional airlines. In fact the only regional jet that we have is the BA-146, Kendell used to operate the CRJ for a very short period of time but unfortunately when Ansett collapsed the CRJ's went with it. The Saab 340, Dash 8, EMB-110/120, J32, Metro 23 are the dominant types over here. I'd like to see more regional jets over here- CRJ's,EMB-145 etc. I wish.
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Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: To Stay?

Thu Mar 13, 2003 4:12 pm

Sunday, Continental Connection (Commutair) will restart Beech 1900D flights from CLE. 42 dailies to eleven cities by August. Turboprops are perfect (i.e. profitable) for some routes where even rj's are too big.
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 5:21 am

RE: To Stay?

Thu Mar 13, 2003 4:21 pm

Well, in reference to ASA, we have been told that the EMB-120's will be retired by the end of this year. In fact, they will be out of the Atlanta system possibly as early as the end of April. They may hang on a little longer in the Dallas system however. Now the ATR's, those probably won't be going anywhere anytime soon, unfortunately.
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Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: To Stay?

Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:08 am

BTW how many manufacturer make Turboprops nowadays? Maybe this is the answer to your question.....
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
Airbus Lover
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Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2000 10:29 pm

RE: To Stay?

Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:19 am

I can think of-

-Saab (still producing?)
-Bombardier (Dash Q series)

There are many advantages of turboprops over RJs on short hops. Maybe someone can list them out?
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: To Stay?

Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:21 am

Nope, SAAB isn´t producing anymore the 340 was profitable but the 2000 was a disaster money wise, but a good plane.....
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
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RE: To Stay?

Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:30 am

KLM Cityhopper/UK are going all jet soon... most likely...
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RE: To Stay?

Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:24 am

I think Turboprops will see greater use in Europe, where there appears to be a little less of a stigma attached to them

Yes, but I don't believe Europe has the same kind of scope clauses that restrict the growth of RJ operations here in the states.

Another thing about turboprops - they can use shorter runways. That is an advantage in many places. This may be why Miami still has many prop operations - prop planes find it easier to get into Carribean island airports.

Another place turboprops may have less stigma is in developing markets like China, India, Latin America, and Indochina. Here is where the larger turboprops may still find a market.
Posts: 3503
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: To Stay?

Fri Mar 14, 2003 8:06 am

There are many markets that will survice only with the use of turboprops. Which at any rate, have jet engines attatched ot those wings. They just turn props instead of fans. Mesaba is not going to be all jet - we are retiring saabs but have the last 340s off the assembly line and it has been said that we'll operate 45 saabs in the future. Cities like Thief River Falls, Bemidgi, Brainerd, St. Cloud in MN, Pierre and Watertown in, SD and all kinds of other small towns in that neck of the woods survive on air service. Should an RJ not be able to profitable serve those towns - an all jet airline would have to suspend service there, thus leaving the city without a vital link for goods and other services.

Yes, there will be a need for turboprops in the future of American aviation.

Posts: 3531
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 12:57 am

RE: To Stay?

Fri Mar 14, 2003 8:26 am

Antonov is developing some nice, modern turboprops on proven technology.
Continental Connection (Gulfstream, CommutAir) both operate BE1s for Continental, but are partners, not wholly owned subsidiary like COEX.
-Transaero Boeing 737-200
PS: The Be1 continues to be the aircraft of choice for CommutAir, from CommutAir's site.
What now?
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Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: To Stay?

Fri Mar 14, 2003 8:56 am

ASA has some new ATR-72 Aircraft. The N5__AS series aircraft are only a few years old.
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: To Stay?

Sat Mar 15, 2003 3:37 am

ASA did recieve some newer ATR-72s a few years back that were ex-Mt. Cook Air aircraft, and were built in the mid-90s. I had read that ASA was going to keep the Brasilia around because some smaller cities they fly to are too small for an CRJ or an ATR-72; but with the 40 seat variants of the CRJ, that looks like the capacity problem is taken care of. I am honestly surprised that ASA has not gotten additional ATR-72s, since with them seating 66 pax, they don't run afoul of the Delta scope clause.

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