DCA-ROCguy
Topic Author
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:22 am

Here's the press release:

Delta Air Lines Expands Delta Connection Service at Buffalo and Rochester, N.Y.

ATLANTA, March 13 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL)
will expand its Delta Connection service featuring Bombardier CRJ regional
jets between Atlanta and the New York airports of Buffalo and Rochester
effective June 1.
At Buffalo, the new schedule will feature two new nonstop Delta Connection
round-trip flights, which expands service between Buffalo and Atlanta to seven
nonstop flights daily operated by Delta Connection carrier Comair.
At Rochester, the new schedule also will feature two new nonstop Delta
Connection round-trip flights, which expands service to Atlanta to six nonstop
flights daily, flown by Comair and Atlantic Southeast Airlines (ASA). The two
new flights will be operated by Comair.
"Our customers, especially business travelers, tell us that frequency of
service and access to our worldwide network via our hubs are very important to
them," said Subodh Karnik, Delta's senior vice president - Network and Revenue
Management. "These service enhancements increase the access to our largest
hub from Buffalo and Rochester by 30 percent, and customers also will have
continued access to our second largest hub in Cincinnati."
With the new schedule, all flights at Buffalo and Rochester will be Delta
Connection flights, operated by Delta's wholly owned subsidiaries, ASA and
Comair.
"Buffalo and Rochester are valued markets for Delta, and the decision to
change our service there to all Delta Connection flights was not made easily,"
Karnik said. "These changes were designed to give our customers what they
have asked for -- more nonstop and connecting options, and more flights
throughout the day."
Delta Air Lines, the world's second largest airline in terms of passengers
carried and the leading U.S. carrier across the Atlantic, offers 5,643 flights
each day to 438 destinations in 78 countries on Delta, Delta Express, Delta
Shuttle, Delta Connection and Delta's worldwide partners. Delta is a founding
member of SkyTeam, a global airline alliance that provides customers with
extensive worldwide destinations, flights and services. For more information,
please go to delta.com .

--------

Delta is in fact cutting capacity at ROC with this change; I don't know about Bufffalo. "30 percent increase in access" can only refer to number of connecting-flight pairs, which is at least something.

Delta's user-unfriendly trip-planner offers no option to show all daily flights on a route for any given day, and you have run several different hours and click on the flight number to get the aircraft type. I pieced together that ROC will have five CRJ-200's and one CRJ-700 on ROC-ATL in JUly.

DL just finished running 3 daily 722's on ROC-ATL, which was about 450 seats. That was changed this month to 2 MD-88's and 2 CRJ-700's, which is about 330. The June 1 schedule will cut us down to 320.

AirTran, meanwhile adds its third daily ROC-ATL 717 this month, for a total of (117 x 3) 351 seats. At Buffalo, AirTran has had 3 daily flights for years; even if Delta runs only CRJ-200's to BUF, at 7 flights that would put them at 350 and thus about the same as AirTran.

That means that as of June 1 three of the six Cartel-network carriers now run only regional-affiliate service at ROC, and (I think) two of them run only regional-affiliate service at BUF.

Moral of the story: AirTran's low fares and excellent service have clearly established them in Western New York. At least business travelers who want or need network-carrier reach, who will lose first class, will get something (I think) most of them would value more--greater frequencies.

Jim


Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
zrb2
Posts: 847
Joined: Sat May 20, 2000 10:07 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:33 am

looks like you and I were on the same page on this one,,,,, gosh, these airports are soon to be all regional jet traffic. This mostly affects me for nostaligic reasons since I very rarely fly anything but WN to BUF. I don't like losing mainline jets. How soon before United goes all ACA to Western NY?
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:51 am

If you want to see the entire flight schedule for a given day between two cities, just go to the "Flight Schedules" section on Delta.com.

http://www.delta.com/schedules/travel/reservations/flight_sched/index.jsp

ATL-ROC will have 4 CRJ200's and 2 CRJ700's...total 340 seats.

ATL-BUF will have 5 CRJ200's and 2 CRJ700's...total 390 seats.

DL's cuts in these markets reflect a few factors. First, DL's mainline fleet is shrinking, therefore some cities must lose mainline. Second, DL has never been a major player in Upstate NY, so cutting mainline in these markets is not a major surprise. Third, yields now stink because of Airtran,JBLU and WN's presence (in BUF's case), so DL has decided to squeeze down capacity. Short of a bankruptcy filing, DL will never have costs as low as the low-fare guys, so they have no choice but to trim down service in weaker markets.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:56 am

Also, no more service to DAL... all DL traffic now goes to Ft. Worth only.  Sad
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
BUFjets
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 9:27 pm

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:57 am

Delta has been using CRJ-700's for at least some of the flights at BUF. I've not been on one of them yet. I'm really uncomfortable in CRJ-200's. I was looking forward to more MD-88's after full 727 retirement. BUF used to see MD-80's from US, AA, and, CO. Now I don't think we'll see any unless CO subs one in.

I'll choose a 717 every time over any CRJ.
 
DCA-ROCguy
Topic Author
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Fri Mar 14, 2003 6:06 am

Just realized a mathematical goof, and thanks to FlyPNS1 a capacity goof as well. Thanks for indicating the "Flight Schedules" section.

February: 3 722s at about 450 seats;
April: 2 MD-88s and 2 CRJ-700's at about 420 seats;
June 1: 4 CRJ-200's and 2 CRJ-700's at about 340 seats.

So ROC still sees a net sizeable capacity drop, 450 > 400 > 340. And that last bigger drop is in the summer, when traffic and yields/margins are at their highest! There are of course many cities without B6/FL/WN out there to rake, so the planes are apparently better used elsewhere.

Agreed on most factors affecting DL's capacity cuts. However, Delta was a major player in Upstate NY in the 1990's, to the extent that anyone other than USAir was. (Just as Eastern, Delta's predecessor in UNY, had been from the 1970's forward. EA was second-biggest at ROC in 1987, for instance). USAir had over 50 percent at BUF and ROC, as they and their predecessors had had since the 1960's.

In 1995, for example, DL's schedule at ROC was typically 3 ROC-ATL nonstop 722's; 2 ROC-SYR-ATL 722's; and 3 ROC-CVG nonstop CRJ-200's. Compare with typical UA schedule of 6 722/733 mix to ORD nonstop, and 5-6 J32-J41 mix to IAD; and UA typical schedule of 5 M80/F100 mix to ORd, and 4-5 Saab each to JFK, BOS, and LGA.

Last 2 paragraphs were off the top of my head...no wonder I can't remember where I park my car at the mall half the time. I'm glad someone else out there enjoys discussing this info!  Smile

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
DCA-ROCguy
Topic Author
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Fri Mar 14, 2003 6:14 am

In 1995, for example, DL's schedule at ROC was typically 3 ROC-ATL nonstop 722's; 2 ROC-SYR-ATL 722's; and 3 ROC-CVG nonstop CRJ-200's. Compare with typical UA schedule of 6 722/733 mix to ORD nonstop, and 5-6 J32-J41 mix to IAD; and UA typical schedule of 5 M80/F100 mix to ORd, and 4-5 Saab each to JFK, BOS, and LGA.

Let's try that again: DL figures OK
UA's IAD also usually included one daily narrowbody, anything from 732 to 722.
*AA* typical schedule was 5 M80/ F100 mix to ORD, and the aforementioned Saabs and routes.

Back to studying.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
DCA-ROCguy
Topic Author
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Fri Mar 14, 2003 6:52 am

looks like you and I were on the same page on this one,,,,, gosh, these airports are soon to be all regional jet traffic. This mostly affects me for nostaligic reasons since I very rarely fly anything but WN to BUF. I don't like losing mainline jets. How soon before United goes all ACA to Western NY?

I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen this year. But I think we'll see Air Wisconsin too, at both ROC and BUF. UA has been more dense at AA at both airports to ORD for the past couple of decades. We'll probably see a mix of Air Wisky BAE-146's and ACA CRJ-200's.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
BUFjets
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 9:27 pm

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Fri Mar 14, 2003 7:04 am

If UA goes Regional at BUF, the price of a ticket to ORD is going to go way up. AE is selling out some of their ERJ's now. So if UA pulls even more seats out of the market, it will be even harder to get a last minute flight.

Maybe WN or Airtran will start service to MDW?
 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6358
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Fri Mar 14, 2003 7:07 am

Wow,this was a shocker! I knew that ASA was using a CRJ700 when 1 722 r/t was phased out and that the MD88's will replace the 727 4-1. I can't believe DL will not have mainline. I flew ROC-ATL-ROC last Sunday to get on a 727 before they're gone and it was full both ways! If they reduce capacity by using CRJ's ticket prices will undoubtedly increase. This will likely help Airtran. I for one would rather fly a 717 than a CRJ for 2 hours.
I just think they're shooting themselves in the foot. If BUF & ROC are so important to DL they should stick with the MD88 or dare I say 757 ?
I remember back in July 95 DL used 732's to CVG,now its CRJ200's .
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
Guest

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Fri Mar 14, 2003 7:33 am

Seems to me atop all the mainline reductions that ROC has faced as of late as well as a article in the D&C a few months ago I read about this subject,that the director of GRIA Slaybaugh is literally holding the door wide open for the mainline airlines to walk out.
 
GD727
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2002 7:33 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Fri Mar 14, 2003 9:13 am

Man, this is really starting to anger me. Delta is my favorite airline, but the management Delta has at the current time just plain sucks. First, when Mullen first became the CEO, customer satisfaction went down, then the 727's are retired faster (Ron Allen wanted to keep them longer), then DLX is axed for the somewhat poorly created Song Air, and now they are going into the stupid "replace all your mainline with RJs" craze. Man, I wish Ron Allen was still CEO.

Sorry, just had to vent.

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Fri Mar 14, 2003 9:59 am

Yeah, the Allen days are sorely missed. Here in New Orleans, nonstop Delta service to LAX, LAS, PNS, SLC, TPA, LGA, MCO have all been cut within the last few years. Great way to alienate the customers and at the same time improve Southwest's popularity!

DL has lost its way.


Steve in NOLA
 
DCA-ROCguy
Topic Author
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Fri Mar 14, 2003 10:42 am

Maybe WN or Airtran will start service to MDW?

It's probably only a matter of time before WN starts MDW service from BUF. The new MDW airside building is nearing completion (parts are already open, ATA is using it) and WN will get additional gates. The vast majority of Western New York's low-fare air service is southbound; WN's single dailies from BUF to PHX and LAS are it for nonstop, and JetBlue's westbound flights through JFK are all transcons except DEN and SLC.

For Upstate NY, the Cartel-network carriers are pretty much it to the middle part of the country.

But AirTran probably won't start MDW from either ROC or BUF. I could be wrong, but I think Chicago isn't strong enough O & D from WNY to support several narrobodies. *Connecting traffic* is needed. Only Southwest, among low-fare carriers, offers a big enough hub at Chicago to make that work well.

ATA might be able to fly Saabs from ROC and BUF to MDW, but they probably couldn't fill 738's.

That's one more reason ROC needs to get Southwest. There isn't another viable option for low-fare service to the Midwest and much of the West. Fortunately, our local officials and Congresswoman are not deterred by the economy or WN's presence at BUF. We're still lobbying hard for our own WN station, and won't pipe down til we get it. If US is liquidated, WN will probably be at ROC and SYR within six months.

This will likely help Airtran. I for one would rather fly a 717 than a CRJ for 2 hours. I just think they're shooting themselves in the foot. If BUF & ROC are so important to DL they should stick with the MD88 or dare I say 757 ?

I agree. Again, DL has higher operating costs and wants to send their a/c where they can best service those high operating costs. There are enough folks in Rochester and Buffalo who need Delta's bigger connecting network that we'll have CRJ's aplenty, but we might not see mainline again.

But AirTran's success indicates that business folks as well as leisure folks are choosing lower fares in Western NY. The FF narcotic isn't as addictive as it used to be, especially since corporate travel depts are the ones making the decisions.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Fri Mar 14, 2003 10:59 am

Yeah, the Allen days are sorely missed. Here in New Orleans, nonstop Delta service to LAX, LAS, PNS, SLC, TPA, LGA, MCO have all been cut within the last few years. Great way to alienate the customers and at the same time improve Southwest's popularity!

These routes were cut because DL was hemoragghing money on them. They were LOSERS. Should DL just keep flying money losing routes just for looks and show??? Clearly, you don't run a business of your own.
 
N2111J
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2000 3:28 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:40 am

Not good news at all for ROC fliers. I noticed the 6th daily roundtrip Delta is offering does not actually start until July 15th due to aircraft availability. I'm also very surprised that at least the early morning flight didn't stay mainline. They're decreasing that flight from a MD-88 to a CRJ, with a loss of 90+ seats. It would've made much more sense to have 2 CRJ's replace the 7am mainline departure, with one at 6:30 and another 8am as is being done at BUF, and what used to be done with 2 722's here a few years ago.

One other quick ROC note, the parallel taxiway project on the North side of runway 10-28 which was cancelled last summer, is back on the schedule this summer, along with several other improvement projects.

Mike
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:51 am

"Clearly, you don't run a business of your own"

No, I do not (yet), but I can assure you that some of those routes were not HEMMORAGING money as you so eloquently put it. But, I guess you have to work at an airport to get the inside info like that right? No reason for attitude pal.


Steve in NOLA
 
DCA-ROCguy
Topic Author
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sat Mar 15, 2003 1:03 am

I was hoping we'd hear from you Mike!

Not good news at all for ROC fliers. I noticed the 6th daily roundtrip Delta is offering does not actually start until July 15th due to aircraft availability. I'm also very surprised that at least the early morning flight didn't stay mainline. They're decreasing that flight from a MD-88 to a CRJ, with a loss of 90+ seats. It would've made much more sense to have 2 CRJ's replace the 7am mainline departure, with one at 6:30 and another 8am as is being done at BUF, and what used to be done with 2 722's here a few years ago.

This morning, Slaybaugh was ripping Delta in the Democrat & Chronicle. He pointed out that Rochester's business-heavy market produces demand for two-cabin service, and that Delta would just hurt itself. A friend who heard Slaybaugh speak at her engineers' group last year said that he has been very happy with the low-fare carriers, and had only acerbic criticism for the network carriers. Gee, why would anyone in Rochester feel that way?

This of course is the same Delta that suspended service at ROC for two weeks, with *a week's notice* in June 2001. That was after Monroe County had given them a year's notice about runway work that would require smaller a/c. Delta dumped thousands of other pax onto other carriers during a season when seat availability was limited. "Delta: We Have Contempt for our Customers, and it Shows."

One other quick ROC note, the parallel taxiway project on the North side of runway 10-28 which was cancelled last summer, is back on the schedule this summer, along with several other improvement projects. Mike

That's good to hear! What else is on the agenda this year?

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
GD727
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2002 7:33 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sat Mar 15, 2003 1:10 am

MSYTristar: Sorry to hear Delta has cut so much service from MSY. LGA-MSY sounds like a really profitable route! I'm surprised they cut it. I guess Mullen is even cutting fairly profitable flights, up here in PVD, they are planning to cut our MCO service, which they fill almost every day.

It's not that I don't like RJ's, it's just that I don't think they should be used on routes like a 7:00A flight from JFK-ATL which they could easily fill a 757 with. RJ's should be used on routes like BTV or BGR-CLT or ATL at the furthest. They should only be used at for routes going to and from small cities to hubs, that was their purpose when they were created.

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sat Mar 15, 2003 1:57 am

No, I do not (yet), but I can assure you that some of those routes were not HEMMORAGING money as you so eloquently put it. But, I guess you have to work at an airport to get the inside info like that right? No reason for attitude pal.

Yes, loads out of MSY are usually quite strong and DL has no trouble filling the planes. However, yields into MSY are a very different story. The yields are very poor especially for a market as large as MSY. Part of the reason for this is WN's very large presence and part is the nature of MSY.

Even America West (a carrier with a very low-cost structure compared to DL) is struggling with one daily MSY-PHX flight. You'll notice AWA is using the smallest mainline plane they have and they have warned MSY that things need to improve. How could DL, with a much higher cost structure, possibly survive on routes like MSY-LAS and MSY-SLC?

As for ROC, it's nothing personal but DL has to make a decision. Yields in ROC have plummeted due to both Airtran's presence and a poor US economy. In addition, DL is reducing the size of the mainline fleet, so inevitably some markets have to lose mainline service. In all likelihood, ROC and BUF are some of DL's poorest performers, so they get cut.

People in ROC and BUF have made it clear they prefer the service of low-fare carriers and don't want to pay the prices for the network carriers. So the network carriers have been forced to pullback, every choice has its consequences.
 
ord
Posts: 1354
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: GD727

Sat Mar 15, 2003 4:19 am

Like you I'm a big fan of Delta. But everything you mentioned as being bad is actually good. I think Delta management is doing a fine job considering this crazed industry.

1. I don't have any stats on customer service going down when Mullin took over from Allen, so I would need to see proof that's the case.

2. Retiring the 727s faster is a GOOD thing. They are inefficient in terms of fuel use and having three-man crews. Don't you notice how all other airlines have gotten rid of them? You don't hang on to nostalgia if it means losing money.

3. Song is not poorly created at all. It will be just like Air Canada's Tango, which to most analysts has been a success. Delta has got try something beacuse the current model sure isn't working.

4. Replacing mainline with RJs is necessary in many markets. You just can't continue to run an MD-88 with 50 passengers and be profitable. At least Delta is preserving the Delta brand on these routes rather than abandon them altogether.

Again, Delta mangement is obviously doing a far better job than their two larger competitors, AA and UA. For 2002, here are the results:

Delta lost 1.287 million
AA lost 3.511 million
UA lost 3.212 million

Delta clearly has the best future of the big 3 at this point in time.
 
LHMark
Posts: 7048
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 2:18 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sat Mar 15, 2003 4:26 am

Jim, that runway thing reminds me....do you still have the "Cartel Carriers' Gilligan's Island" song handy? -Mark
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
The Rock
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 12:37 pm

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sat Mar 15, 2003 7:33 am

Does anyone know if SYR is keeping mainline service?
If so, why?
 
GD727
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2002 7:33 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sat Mar 15, 2003 8:19 am

ORD-To answer you questions:

1. I don't have any stats on customer service going down when Mullin took over from Allen, so I would need to see proof that's the case.

I don't know about you, but before Mullen took over, all I ever heard about Delta was good. When Mullen took over, I started hearing a few complaints, now there seem to be more and more every day. (I base this on what I hear from everyday customers.)

2. Retiring the 727s faster is a GOOD thing. They are inefficient in terms of fuel use and having three-man crews. Don't you notice how all other airlines have gotten rid of them? You don't hang on to nostalgia if it means losing money.

Maybe it is just my undying respect for that glorious bird known as the 727, but I don't think they are really inefficient enough to hurt the airline. Sure, other carriers like UA and AA have ridden of their 727s, and they are some of the worst off airlines (economically) in the U.S., why should Delta follow the examples of them?

3.Song is not poorly created at all. It will be just like Air Canada's Tango, which to most analysts has been a success. Delta has got try something because the current model sure isn't working.

The only reason DLX is not working is because the workers are paid the same as plain Delta, but since DLX is a low-fare airline, they should only be paid about the same as WN's workers.
The reasons I don't like Song are:

1. They are only focusing on large, inconvenient airports like JFK and BOS. I have no problem with them serving these airports, but JFK and BOS are both a hassle to get into and fly out of. They should serve airports like PVD, MHT, and ISP like Southwest.

2. They are hiding the Delta name behind a new name. Where is the company pride in that? They should have something that says "Yes, we are a Delta company and proud of it". At least Metrojet was noticeably a Us Airways company.

4. Replacing mainline with RJs is necessary in many markets. You just can't continue to run an MD-88 with 50 passengers and be profitable. At least Delta is preserving the Delta brand on these routes rather than abandon them altogether.

True, in many markets replacing the RJs with mainline is necessary, but BUF and ROC? I think not. All I know is BUF is almost the exact same size as PVD and gets plenty of passengers. At PVD we have several 757's and MD-88's to ATL and CVG per day with DL (all 85 to 100% full), and Buffalo gets just as many people as PVD.
As for ROC, it is not as big as BUF and some flights do need to be replaced with RJ's, but not all of the flights. I think 2 daily CRJ-200s and one daily MD-88 would work fine, ROC isn't that small!
Also, do you think a CRJ-200 is appropriate for running a 7:00A service from JFK-ATL? The service does exist! They could fill a 757 on that route!


I mean no offense or attitude to anyone in this post, it is just my opinion.

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sat Mar 15, 2003 9:11 am

MSY-LAX and LGA made money for Delta for decades...as did SLC for quite a while. LAS...no one makes money to LAS...they cut that route along with many other LAS runs (BOS, MCO, etc). MSY is traditionally low yield, but we have a few routes which are not, ie, LAX nonstops, NYC, even ATL/IAH/DFW to an extent, as those are the biggest business routes out of the city. Mostly low yield, but not totally. AA is thriving on its MSY-LGA nonstop...look for a second flight before too long. DL just diminished its prescence in MSY, not due to poor yields, but because of better "asset allocation"...more hub flying. MCO service was a Delta trademark since the early 80's...I probably miss that service the most.


Steve in NOLA
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sat Mar 15, 2003 10:55 am

Just to clarify a couple of points, then I'm all done, I promise  Smile HP serves MSY with a 737-300, which actually holds more pax than the A319. According to the HP station manager at MSY, they are doing good here. Might see the 2nd PHX flight come back in late Summer/early Fall. I think Southwest pretty much owns that route, with 2 nonstops a day and a couple of direct flights, but HP offers a good alternative for people. It fills a niche...much like Frontier from MSY to DEN. I want to see HP add a MSY-LAS service, which I think will happen sooner or later, especially since Delta filled its red eye 767 LAS flight...and all we have now is one to Vegas (Southwest of course).

Have a great weekend!

Steve in New Orleans

Note: Frontier will go to one flight MSY-DEN for the Summer, and will add the 2nd flight back in early Fall. Summer is slow season in New Orleans.

 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6358
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sat Mar 15, 2003 11:00 am

Unbeleivable. I won't be flying DL in a CRJ for 2 hours when I can fly in a 717 . First A^A ,then DL who's next ? UA , NW ?
Us ROC spotters will only have 2 months to see MD88's .
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1479
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sat Mar 15, 2003 11:01 am

MSYTristar,

With all due respect, the MSY routes you mention were NOT profitable for Delta in the years before cancellation. I'd be interested to see any evidence you have to the contrary. I can assure you that Delta has no interest in canceling profitable flying under any circumstance, even the good times. Despite the rantings of this board, Delta is a very well-run carrier. It makes decisions based on economic sense, not personal agendas.

The same goes for BUF and ROC. None of the low-cost carrier fans on here should underestimate the ability of AirTran, JetBlue and Southwest to completely destroy a market for a legacy carrier. Customers in BUF and ROC have chosen the low-fare route. When they can't get a premium class seat all the way through to Sao Paulo, they should look to themselves, not to the companies whose products they have abandoned. As FlyPNS1 said, that type of consumer behavior has consequences that market will have to live with. The consumer has spoken, deal with it.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sat Mar 15, 2003 11:36 am

GD727-

Clearly, if they could fill a 757 on the 7am departure, they would, wouldn't they? They're not arbitrarily axing profitable routes to piss us off, they're adjusting capacity where they're losing money. Its the right thing to do. The point is, they're not filling the aircraft they're sending, unless you can prove otherwise.

I realize your nostalgic re: the 727, but a three man cockpit crew costs a LOT MORE, the 727 is far less reliable than a new aircraft, and yes, its a vastly less efficient aircraft than its original replacement (the 757) and its new more appropriate replacement (the 738). Your analogy that Delta shouldn't follow the dying airlines that grounded the 727 isn't really appropriate - grounding the 727 is the RIGHT thing to have done, even if they did everything else wrong. If you think these factors don't cost the airline a ton of money, you're really quite wrong.

PVD is an airport with a much, much larger catchment area near one of Delta's best airports in one of Delta's largest markets. It doesn't quite compare to ROC.

The reason Delta isn't serving Islip and so on is just the opposite of what you said. Urbanites in Boston and New York have a hard time getting to those outlying airports like PVD and ISP. Its time consuming and expensive. DL will be Singing from all three major NY area airports for convenience reasons for the nearly untapped downtown low fare traveller.

N
 
N2111J
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2000 3:28 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sun Mar 16, 2003 1:13 am

I like to see ALL airlines do well here in ROC. The greater number of airlines, flights, and choices available are to everyone's benefit. But to say that the consumers here at ROC are to blame for Delta pulling their mainline service out because they choose to fly low fare carriers is ridiculous. Some people want affordable travel at reasonable fares...............What a concept! Sure Air Tran is doing well, but I believe Delta is doing well also. The morning 727 flight to ATL seems to be close to full the majority of the time, and yet they are replacing that flight with a 50 seat RJ in June. Does that make any sense? I have only flown Comair one time, from CVG-ROC and that CRJ-200 is not very comfortable at all. A one hour flight is about the max tolerance I'd have, and I'm average size at 6" 1'..........a 2 hour flight to ATL I couldn't even imagine. The CRJ-700 is supposed to be a big improvement, and there will still be 2 of those a day. So given the choice of a 717 at the same or less cost than a CRJ-200, it doesn't take a genius to figure out my choice, and a lot of other people's either. SYR is keeping mainline ATL service after June 1, they will continue to have 2 mainline and 2 CRJ-700 as ROC does now. Presumably that's because of Air Tran's lack of presence there. ALB has low fare service with Southwest, and yet Delta will continue with mainline service both ATL and CVG from there. So to say the 'consumers have spoken' as the reason for the end of mainline service here in ROC is just a bit out to lunch.

Jim- I only had a quick look at the summer construction plan, I'll get more detail on it soon and post. The only other things I know for sure besides the parallel 10-28 taxiway project is some strengthening of taxiways in the middle of the field, and a brand new perimeter fence along the west side of the field.

Mike
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sun Mar 16, 2003 2:03 am

How can anyone say that Delta is a well run airline? I do not see much evidence supporting that theory. Delta, as a whole, has been in decline since Mullen took office. It was once a very respected carrier, known for great service. Now, it is just a normal cartel carrier. Nothing special at all really. The only reason DL is still huge in the South (despite dramatically decreasing service to markets which once proved to be its lifeline), for example, is historical value. Granted, historical value does not come into play when business decisions are made, but damnit, maybe it's time that it should.

I have no problem with Delta adjusting routes to meet demand, but this trend of just pumping RJ's into markets where an MD-88 etc. can be filled is getting a little out of hand. I'm not talking yield here...I'm talking load factor. If statistics show that there is demand for 150 passengers to fly from BUF/ROC to ATL at 7:00am, then they should use that a/c. The classic RJ excuse is "more frequency, more convenient". Well, that works to a certain extent, but it also alienates the Elite passengers, as well as people who just find an RJ a sardine can, such as a 6'1, 230 pounder like myself. Air Tran will certainly benefit in ROC.

Delta just has to re-examine its core values and somehow get back some of the loyal former customers (like myself and my family, who used to only fly DL out of New Orleans exclusively) who have grown to consider Delta to be nothing more than entity...and not a special one at that.

Steve in NOLA
 
DCA-ROCguy
Topic Author
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sun Mar 16, 2003 2:06 am

Sorry, Mark, I'm not sure where the song is, or what thread it was in to search. If I find it I'll post!

Jim- I only had a quick look at the summer construction plan, I'll get more detail on it soon and post. The only other things I know for sure besides the parallel 10-28 taxiway project is some strengthening of taxiways in the middle of the field, and a brand new perimeter fence along the west side of the field.
Mike


Speaking of airport construction....Mike, what have you heard about the county's plan to rip out the concourse security stations and replace them with one big station in the middle of the terminal? I don't know if you saw my letter to the editor in the D & C about this in January, but I think it's a terrible idea. Closing the concessions off to visitors would hurt them, not to mention depriving visitors of the excellent viewing gallery. Moving Slaybaugh's office to give nonpax a view out the west side towards the 4-22 threshold is a nice gesture, but it won't help the concessions.

It seems to me that widening the concurse "throat" areas to provide the additional office and screening space Slaybaugh says is needed, would be a much better idea. That would cost far less, it seems to me, than ripping out escalators and restrooms in the middle of the terminal. Wider concourse security areas were built at BWI and they work great. And all those BWI concessions in the long dungeon hallway behind the ticket counters remain open to visitors and their $$.

Also, ALB may have Southwest, but like SYR they don't have AirTran so the high fares on ALB-ATL itself haven't been challenged. That apparently seems to be enough to keep mainline, at least for now.

At least in the case of AA, low fare competition cannot be behind their abandonment of Upstate New York. AA and UA are free to service their high cost structures on UNY-Chicago flights, at least within increasingly thin consumer tolerance. Their cost structure, not the Upstate NY market demand, is the problem.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6091
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sun Mar 16, 2003 2:13 am

....and the NW DC-9's keep on coming.

At least NW is still offering a majority of mainline into ROC and ALB, heck they've even increased service lately.

Majority of flights are operated with DC-9's, with a few token CRJ's and a Saab stuck in the mix. Heck, ALB gets a A319 from DTW.

NW just started flying MSP-ROC with a DC-9 last month.

At least one "cartel" carrier still maintains a mainline presence in upstate New York, and apparently has figured out how to make money. With those DC-9's only costing $1900/per block hour, it can be done.
 
GD727
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2002 7:33 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sun Mar 16, 2003 2:51 am

Gigniel:

1. First of all, I cannot and will not believe that a CRJ is all Delta can fill on a 7AM flight from JFK a gigantic airport to ATL, another gigantic airport. At least they should use an MD-88!

2. Okay, what about NW? NW is still keeping their fleet of DC-9s, which have 3-person crews and are just as old as DL's 727s. If NW is keeping their old DC-9s (and NW is doing very well), why can't Delta keep their 727s?

3. Yes, PVD is has a larger potential for passengers than ROC, but BUF is about the same as PVD. Besides, the Rochester metro area isn't exactly as big as the Providence metro area, but it is big enough that it deserves at least ONE mainline flight per day!

4. Okay. I'll level with you on one thing, it was a good idea to serve all 3 NYC airports, but here in New England, it doesn't work the same way. Sure, people in downtown Boston are getting benefited by Song using BOS, but what about us that live out in the suburbs? I can tell you, I know a guy that lives in Quincy, a town that is just south of Boston, and even he prefers flying out of PVD.
BOS is just a crappy airport, the parking is horrendous (if you RUN from central parking, it will take you 15-20 minutes to get to the terminal, whereas in PVD, it only takes you 2 minutes while walking), the terminal layout is bad, and one of the terminals (D) belongs in a third world country. In addition to that, the airport is under construction, so the roadways in the airport are screwed up. Everyone I know will do almost anything they can to avoid using BOS. Maybe when the new Terminal A is finished, it will be nice, but that won't be for a long time.

I think that Song should forget following JetBlue and follow Airtran and Southwest. Look at Airtran! They're flying mainline into ROC and even really small airports like Moline, IL, and they (along with Southwest) are the most profitable airlines in the country!

Again, no offense to nobody, just my opinion.

-GD727

Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6091
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sun Mar 16, 2003 3:07 am

NW's DC-9's are all older, some even from the late '60's, than DL's 727's.
One of the reasons that the DC-9 has lasted longer than the 727's, is that they only require a 2-person crew instead of 3 like the 727. This is one of the major cost benefits in the old '9's versus the older-but-newer 727.

Now, I wouldn't exactly say NW is doing well, or even making money on these routes. However, they are losing less than the others during this time.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sun Mar 16, 2003 3:29 am

Everyone on this board seems to believe that a full mainline plane means DL is doing well in ROC. However, a full plane does not necessarily equal a profit. If the plane is full of low-yield fares, DL could be losing a lot of money.

Admittedly, a large part of the problem is DL's cost structure and DL is working to reduce that. However, DL will never have a cost structure as low as Airtran (unless DL goes and fires everyone and hires a bunch of 22 year olds off the street). DL has a large number of people who are far older than Airtran employees and far more demanding in terms of pay and benefits. DL employees wanted to be paid well enough, so that they could work their for life. Most Airtran employees (who are relatively young) won't stay with Airtran for life (pilots being one major exception). But for the FA's, GA's, customer service reps, etc, the low pay and long hours will burn them out. That's actually good for Airtran as it will keep costs low because they can just keep bringing in young and cheap employees.

As for DL's decline, its true DL has declined (along with most majors). Although blaming it on Mullin is somewhat inaccurate. Ron Allen (Mullin's predecessor) was quite clueless on how to run an airline. During Allen's time, DL fell to dead last in on-time ranking, dead last in baggage handling and practically dead last in every DOT category. Why? Ron Allen instituted the 7.5 program which had a target of getting DL's CASM down to 7.5. The program was a miserable failure and almost caused DL to completely collapse. Allen also did other boneheaded things like pay way too much for a bunch of money losing European routes which DL could never operate profitably (the FRA hub) and worst of all Allen didn't get LHR access (he let UAL have LHR). Allen also envisioned the PDX Asian hub which was doomed to fail. He let that go to UAL. Allen was also against technological innovation and had little interest in investing in computers or the internet.

Since Mullin's arrival, DL's on-time performance has improved, complaints have declined, baggage handling has improved, DL has more internet bookings than any other carrier (except WN) and DL has expanded service heavily in Latin America (a place Allen had shown little interest in). Not to say Mullin is a saint, he has also screwed up a few times too (Comair strike, billion dollar stock buyback, poor labor relations). However, it's very innaccurate to blame Mullin for all DL's woes.

Ironically, some on this board (cough DCA-ROC cough) who are complaining about DL's pulldown, would be the first to scream bloody murder if DL increased capacity. They'd scream that DL was capacity dumping and acting in a predatory manner. Well, you got your wish. DL isn't being predatory...they're letting Airtran have the market. The consumer wins. Yeah sure
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sun Mar 16, 2003 3:34 am

1) Since I don't know the load factors -and more importantly, the yields- and you haven't mentioned them or don't know them either, we really can't argue intelligently on this matter.

2) DC-9s are a good bit smaller - and burn less fuel, but not by much. The key is that the DC-9 has a two man cockpit. I also would venture to guess that DL is doing better than NW overall.

3) PVD is almost part of the Boston metropolitan area. The catchment from people that live in the far suburbs of Boston driving to PVD to fly is huge in comparison to Buffalo and Rochester, especially in terms of business travellers.

4) The argument is that the suburbanites are already well covered by Southwest and jetBlue. Delta wants to target the people that wouldn't fly at all, or who have to massively inconvenience themselves to fly from Islip or Providence. Urbanites with no cars and so on that can get to a closer-in airport much more easily. It also targets the people with a tight vacation schedule... who need to get to the airport from work on Friday as quick as possible, and then back home Sunday night for a good night's sleep. Believe me - both models will work, Delta's just choosing a different one.

I'm not that far out of the Northeast to not understand. There's a massive array of low-fare service at BWI, but I assure you that Frontier is doing and Airtran will do very well from DCA, not to mention ATA.

You know the Internet is a haven for sleaze when you start getting emails from "findbeaver.com".

N
 
N2111J
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2000 3:28 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Sun Mar 16, 2003 4:10 am

Jim,

I did see your editorial about the plan for the central screening check point, and I agree 100% that it's basically a 'feelgood' approach that wastes a lot of time and money. Unfortunately, ROC has received the $, and the plan is going full speed ahead with construction slated to begin late summer/early fall last I heard.

One other thing I forgot to mention earlier, have any of the ROC people heard about the plan for the new gigantic freight distribution building planned in Chili? There was an article in the D & C 2 or 3 weeks ago, and although they didn't mention it by name, I think they were talking about the former Gottry building as the first piece in a multi stage plan to connect the airport freight in with the railroad tracks that run along the west side of the airport. There are several approval processes that have to be done with the town of Chili, and if this plan comes into being it'll be several years down the road before the facility is fully operational as envisioned, encompassing several acres. The plan did get a positive reaction from several area businesses, as a lot of ROC area freight is now trucked to either SYR or BUF for shipping. This might be good news for the airport as the number of freighter flights could increase substantially.

Mike
 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6358
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:57 am

N211J,always good to hear from someone in the know in ROC! I didn't hear about that,but I don't read the stupid D&C. That would be great for the area,but I'd lose my spotting place for rw 4/22  Smile
I remember hearing about the extension of rw 22 over Paul Road but that never happened,too bad. I also noticed Fed Ex had a A300 instead of the usual A310.
I also think that the new central security checkpoint is a bad idea,especially for the stores there.
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
DCA-ROCguy
Topic Author
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Mon Mar 17, 2003 3:56 pm

Ironically, some on this board (cough DCA-ROC cough) who are complaining about DL's pulldown, would be the first to scream bloody murder if DL increased capacity. They'd scream that DL was capacity dumping and acting in a predatory manner. Well, you got your wish. DL isn't being predatory...they're letting Airtran have the market. The consumer wins.

Actually, the only problem capacity-wise would be if Delta *increased* capacity. Keeping the existing capacity, and doing some fare-matching, is hardly predatory, it's simply competition. That's how the consumer wins best--when prices in general are driven down on a route, but there's still the same type of choice. But as you admit, Delta's cost structure is the problem, and at its best it probably won't ever match AirTran (and it's hardly just a matter of having young employees). Dumping capacity, and undercutting or overmatching fares, those would be predatory actions.

In any event, DL and access to its big multinational network will still be at ROC and BUF, which is the most important thing related to Delta. And AirTran ensures that low-fare service is available to the majority that wants it.

Mike, I did see the article about the intermodal facility they want to build on the west side. I'm really glad to see that going forward, because as you say it can only help our air cargo. It's idiotic that a metro area of 1.1 million has to truck cargo to its neighbors for intermodal service. I too figure the building in question has to be the Gottry building.

UnitedFan, I too have long wanted to see 4-22 extended; having the longest runway of the four largest Upstate airports could only help. Remember when Doyle considered lengthening 4-22 to 10,000' and chasing more air cargo, about three years ago? That plan died with the bad economy, I think. Maybe with an on-airport intermodal facility, something BUF, ALB, and SYR don't have, that plan could become economically possible again.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
RJ
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2001 9:28 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:40 pm


You all crack me up.

With the exception of FlyPNS1, you just don't get it. It's called yield management. Just because the plane is full, doesn't mean it's making money. Delta doesn't care if they can fill the plane up if it looses money. It's about putting the right sized aircraft on the right sized route. And this is not what I wanted to see in my June bid packet either. Sorry, no offense to you guys up there in snow country, but I'd rather be expanding out west!

I thought that the consumer wanted more frequency and low fares. Isn't that what I hear you guys complain about all of the time? Well, now Delta has giving you what you want. You have gained frequency and the fares are very competitive. I do agree that the lack of a First Class cabin might hurt, but I'll leave that up to the bean counters to figure out.


DCA-ROCguy, I checked some fares on that route and Delta was only about $20 bucks more expensive (I couldn't tell if tax is included on the web fares. I even bought an Airtran ticket last year and I remember that the tax was NOT included on their web fares, so it may be a wash) If you look at the Biz Class fare on Airtran, it gets quite expensive. Having flown Airtran's Biz Class, it ain't worth the extra money. I got a bigger seat and a bigger bag of pretzels! So in the end, Delta has giving you more choices at a competitive cost. What is so bad about that? And with those upgraded frequencies, think of all the new connections that you can make out of ATL. I don't think you'll have that choice on Airtran.

GD727, you are clueless.

Happy flying!!!!

I'm sure to fly those routes!

RJ
 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6358
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:28 pm

My view,as a passenger,is say you wanted to book a trip . With DL cutting capacity,the CRJ will fill up faster than say a MD88. So the customer will obviously choose another carrier as DL was booked. So DL will not get any revenue with a connecting flight.
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
ord
Posts: 1354
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: United_Fan

Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:42 pm

In response to your comments...

First, the CRJs are mostly put on routes where demand is not more than 50 passengers per flight. So, better to run a CRJ with 40 passengers (where Delta will make money) than an MD-88 with 40 passengers (where Delta will lose money). It's simply matching capacity to demand.

Second, the CRJs enable Delta to offer more frequencies, increasing connection opportunities. Simply look at the new DFW schedule that takes effect April 6 - many more RJs, but also two more connecting banks, increasing options for travelers.
 
BUFjets
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 9:27 pm

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Tue Mar 18, 2003 1:00 am

I find it interesting that Delta's decision to go to all RJ's at BUF and ROC is nearly coincident with the retirement of the 727's from Delta's fleet. The 727 has been the dominant equipment used between these two cities and ATL. Since DL didn't recently purchase more MD-88's (not that they could anyway), they had to choose between yanking MD-88's off other routes or switching BUF and ROC to RJ's. Also, Comair has been adding new CRJ-700's which provide equipment for some of these flights already. DL will recognize some operational benefits of only having CRJ's to support at BUF and ROC, rather than having to support CRJ's and MD-88's.

 
ouboy79
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Tue Mar 18, 2003 1:47 am

As ORD said...

First, the CRJs are mostly put on routes where demand is not more than 50 passengers per flight. So, better to run a CRJ with 40 passengers (where Delta will make money) than an MD-88 with 40 passengers (where Delta will lose money). It's simply matching capacity to demand.

"Mostly" is the key word there...not all routes are like that. You run into situations more and more, like TOL. They need extra lift to take on all the demand, but they are enjoying the higher yeilds by being able to select who they want to transport. Something you can do comfortably with loads in the mid 90s (percentage wise). This could be the same for ROC. Demand is there for more capacity...but the yeilds are so low, DL can make more money by restricting who they will take.
 
DCA-ROCguy
Topic Author
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:59 am

DCA-ROCguy, I checked some fares on that route and Delta was only about $20 bucks more expensive (I couldn't tell if tax is included on the web fares. I even bought an Airtran ticket last year and I remember that the tax was NOT included on their web fares, so it may be a wash)

I've bought a bunch of AirTran tickets in the past year, and the website does show you the total including taxes before you purchase.

In the end, Delta has giving you more choices at a competitive cost. What is so bad about that? And with those upgraded frequencies, think of all the new connections that you can make out of ATL. I don't think you'll have that choice on Airtran.

Umm..the reason that Delta charges a "competitive cost" is that AirTran is in the market in the first place. Fares dropped substantially on ROC-ATL when AirTran entered. And for the third time, I for one am not complaining about frequencies, and already mentioned the benefit of added connecting-flight pairs it offers. It's just too bad that we lose mainline DL jets, that's all. Better to have AirTran and lose DL mainline than not have AirTran, that's for sure.

And since I've been talking about yield management the whole time, I'm quite aware that a full plane is not necessarily a moneymaking plane. More reason for DL and other network carriers to keep reducing their cost structures, if they want to stay competitive. Apparently DL is unwilling to hold some more market share in some places while they work on it.

Jim

Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
GD727
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2002 7:33 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:30 am

FlyPNS1: DL fell to dead last in on-time ranking, dead last in baggage handling and practically dead last in every DOT category Really? Can I see some proof? All I heard (from consumers) when Allen was president was "Delta was great!", I have been hearing more and more complaints ever since Mullen took over.

RJ: GD727, you are clueless. How exactley am I clueless?

Gigniel: I'll level with you on the first 3. But in New England, we suburbanites don't have Southwest and JetBlue, we just have Southwest. JetBlue currently does not fly to New England except for BTV. Us New England suburbanites will never have JetBlue either, because they don't want to use PVD or MHT, they want to use BOS, just like Song.

Okay, to all of you who are in favor of this DL regional jet craze, if cutting the mainline on these routes is such a good idea, then why can Airtran fly routes like ROC or FNT-ATL on a mainline jet and be the most profitable airline in the country? How are the yields so low?

Here's an idea, why don't they use the former DLX 732s (once they become available) on the routes? Once they are converted to a 2-class configuration they will only seat about 105-110. Perfect size for CVG or ATL-ROC or BUF!

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Tue Mar 18, 2003 7:05 am

Okay, to all of you who are in favor of this DL regional jet craze, if cutting the mainline on these routes is such a good idea, then why can Airtran fly routes like ROC or FNT-ATL on a mainline jet and be the most profitable airline in the country? How are the yields so low?

The reason is quite simple. Airtran's cost's are about 25-30% lower than Delta's. Since Airtran has a lower cost structure, they can make money (or at least breakeven) on the lower yielding fares that DL cannot make money on. Trust me, if DL had Airtran's cost structure, they wouldn't have to pull mainline out of places like ROC and BUF.

Here's an idea, why don't they use the former DLX 732s (once they become available) on the routes? Once they are converted to a 2-class configuration they will only seat about 105-110. Perfect size for CVG or ATL-ROC or BUF!

That might work, but DL needs many of those DLX 732's to help replace the 752's that are going to Song. You have to realize that with the retirement of the 727's and the MD11's, DL's mainline fleet is getting smaller, so some routes have to lose mainline flights. In a few years, assuming the economy improves and DL can get its costs down to a more reasonable level, I could envision DL bringing a 100 seat mainline jet back into place like BUF and ROC.
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Tue Mar 18, 2003 7:11 am

"That might work, but DL needs many of those DLX 732's to help replace the 752's that are going to Song."

The 200's will be replacing some 757 routes? Damn, talk about a big capacity decrease!
 
RJ
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2001 9:28 am

RE: Delta Cuts All Mainline At ROC And BUF

Tue Mar 18, 2003 7:13 am


Well for starters:

You don't fly a jet that costs you an arm and a leg to operate. Case in point, the 727 burns about 4500 lbs FF/engine at FL310 (that's 13,500lbs an hour). It's crew of three make it very expensive to operate as well. Oh, and then there is the maintenance issues, procurement of spares, training, etc. By contrast, the CRJ roughly burns 1400 lbs FF/engine at FL310 (that's 2800 lbs an hour), it has an inexpensive two man crew, a state of the art flightdeck and mx computers, and a large fleet for standardization of parts and training. So you can see that you could run roughly FOUR RJ's a day for the cost of a single 727 (I am talking only about fuel burn) and have over 50 extra seats to boot. As an added bonus, the consumer gets added frequency.


I briefly worked for Delta during Ron Allen's tenure. I was hired right in the middle of Leadership 7.5. FlyPNS1 has already disputed your claims on performance and satisfaction, but I'll take it a step further. The morale at Delta was at an all time low during those times. Delta went from being 60% full time workers and 40% part time workers, to 60% part time and 40% full time. People were changing departments left and right due to the financial hardships that they would have to face due to the elimination of their titled position. Nothing like being on full time and having the rug pulled out from underneath you and suddenly you are a part time worker without your previous benefits.

Delta Express did not work correctly for several reasons. One of the biggest reasons is that people did not deferenciate between DLX and mainline DL. People got on DLX and were sorely surprised that they weren't getting mainline service. SONG is trying to separate itself from mother Delta. Delta is very big into having what they like to call a "portfolio" They are a corporation that manages different products for different consumers. Song is just another way to gain market share in the largest growing segment of the airline industry, LCC. Delta has seen that it can't be all things to all people and therefore have innovatively created a brand that will work along side of its other full service product.

I'm out of time, got to go now.


Fly CRJ's !!!!!

RJ

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 817Dreamliiner, B2443, B6FA4ever, calpsafltskeds, dennys, FAST Enterprise [Crawler], gregn21, jakef, PlanesNTrains, rj968, SFOA380, sunking737, UnitedFlyer, winginit, XLA2008 and 242 guests