Britair
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EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Tue Apr 01, 2003 1:45 am

The authority charged with allocating France's air traffic slots said it has awarded easyJet 7,300 of ex-Air Lib's 44,528 annual slots at Paris' Orly airport.

Virgin Express was awarded 5,840 and Air France was allowed 2,920 slots.


Watch out AF, the low costs are coming en masse!!

 
N79969
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Tue Apr 01, 2003 1:49 am

Given all the rumors about past slot awards, I wonder if the purchase of 120 A319's sealed the deal for them.
 
RJ100
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Tue Apr 01, 2003 1:51 am

Hello

What new destinations out of ORY are planned by Easy, Virgin and AF?

Thanks for any infos!

RJ100
none
 
bmi330
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Tue Apr 01, 2003 1:59 am

This should be intresting to see how this develops if they have that many slots how many new routes will they fly and is it from amediate effect?
 
LGW
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Tue Apr 01, 2003 2:15 am

Maybe this will finally mean an LGW-ORY route will be started!

Ben Pritchard
 
A330
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Tue Apr 01, 2003 2:19 am

N79969,

If you have any knowledge about slots coordination, you would know that the Slots management is totally independant from the state and other influence groups, including airlines.
Shiek!
 
N79969
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Tue Apr 01, 2003 2:24 am

So who allocates slots, France or the EU?

I think my question is fair. Unlike airports anywhere else in Europe, there has been speculation that French authorities looked favorably upon Airbus operators when awarding slots at Paris airports.
 
corsairf/a
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Tue Apr 01, 2003 2:44 am

Aeris hs been given about the same amount of slot as Esay jet and does not operate any Airbus aircraft (B767/737), Virgin and Aigle Azur as well. So stop with the Airbus planes=more slots
 
N79969
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Tue Apr 01, 2003 2:51 am

Notice I did not actually make an assertion but wondered aloud whether aircraft selection played a factor behind the scenes. I also did read that Boeing-operator Virgin received ORY slots. However if I were running EasyJet and had an eye on a bunch of slots at Orly, I certainly would not ignore the rumored Airbus=Paris-slots factor when choosing new aircraft.

In any case, I am sure this decision will bring considerable benefits to consumers traveling to and from Paris.
 
vfw614
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:16 am

Slots in the EU are allocated under a system prescribed by an EU regulation. The slots are allocated by an independent non-governmental body which can be, depending on the country in question, a foundation, a corporation or an individual. In the UK, for example, it is ACL Ltd., a corporation in which UK airlines hold shares. How the slots are allocated is, of course, tightly regulated and by no means discretionary. So any suggestion that the award of slots to Easyjet is related to Easyjet buying Airbus aircraft can only be based on some sort of paranoia and not on facts  Wink/being sarcastic

The system is, by the way, totally different from the US system as in the EU, slots are not regarded as an airline's property - which is the reason why the Air Lib slots were allocated by the French slot co-ordinator and not sold by Air Lib's liquidator.

It will be interesting to find out how Virgin Express and Aeris will get the operation up and running. There were rumours in the past weeks that both are interested in taking over some of Air Lib's assets including some MD83s.
 
N79969
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:18 am

Thanks for the explanation Vfw614.
 
TriStar500
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:23 am

The latest timetable edition from ADP (Aéroports de Paris), which is valid until late July, announces two daily EZY flights from CDG to CIA.

So far I haven't found any other new additions to EZY's Paris services, but this timetable has about 120 pages of nonstop flights, so it will take some time.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
kaitak
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:37 am

Presumably, they'll aim to provide services to EZY's existing hubs first - such as LGW, LTN, LPL, then NCL, ORY and then other EZY destinations, such as MAD, LIN and ZRH, before adding new destinations.
 
Thomas_Jaeger
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Tue Apr 01, 2003 4:11 am

They are reportedly also interested in Barcelona, Marseilles, Milan and Nice from Orly.
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
 
N79969
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sat Apr 05, 2003 7:47 am


No, I was not being paranoid.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134668582_boeing04.html

The timing of the slot grants is highly suspicious.
 
elwood64151
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sat Apr 05, 2003 7:57 am

Were the slots issued to Airbus operators because they bought Airbus? Probably not.

Is it possible? Yes.

Just because the system is designed to prevent such occurences doesn't mean they won't happen.

That being said, I doubt one has anything to do with the other.

Also, AF has little to fear. 7300 annual slots means only 20 flights per day (7300/365). 5840 means only 16 flights per day (5840/365).

Not exactly what I'd call a massive intrusion onto AF's turf.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
N79969
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sat Apr 05, 2003 8:02 am

I believe that the slot-allocation racket is limited to Paris. It is highly suspicious that MH waited five years for slots at CDG (or was it ORY?) and then get them 3 days after buying the 380.

If I recall correctly, the Pakistani media does not like the USA all that much. But they are allegedly reporting retaliation by the Europeans for the recent PIA 777 order.
 
LFutia
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sat Apr 05, 2003 8:08 am

5840 is 15 flights a day. it is rounded to 15.013698630136986301369863013699.

Taken from Calculator.

Leo/ORD
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N79969
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sat Apr 05, 2003 9:37 am

All quiet on the Belgian front...auch ruhig in Deutschland.
 
jwenting
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sat Apr 05, 2003 2:13 pm

If you have any knowledge about slots coordination, you would know that the Slots management is totally independant from the state and other influence groups, including airlines.

In France as well? Remember most things are state-owned or state-run there either openly or behind the scenes.

Slots in the EU are allocated under a system prescribed by an EU regulation. The slots are allocated by an independent non-governmental body which can be, depending on the country in question, a foundation, a corporation or an individual. In the UK, for example, it is ACL Ltd., a corporation in which UK airlines hold shares. How the slots are allocated is, of course, tightly regulated and by no means discretionary.

Noone says that corporation can't be state-owned (or owned by state-owned companies...).
Since when has France ever kept to EU regulations when they didn't suit them? Remember the BSE crisis? The EU ban on British beef was lifted after they got it under control but France kept theirs even after the European court ordered them to lift it. Just one example of France ignoring the EU for their own economical gain.

Not saying EZY got the slots ONLY because they ordered French fries for their fleet, but I'm almost certain that at least the number of slots is higher because of it.
I wish I were flying
 
N79969
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sat Apr 05, 2003 3:17 pm

It's still quiet in Belgium and Germany. I expect a response. I was called ignorant and paranoid. I politely accepted an explanation and left it alone. Now I have some credible evidence that France is trading slots for Airbus orders and now there is deafening silence.
 
B747-4U3
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sat Apr 05, 2003 5:06 pm


This is a very sad day for European aviation.

A cancer is taking over the whole of Europe. The names, EasyJet and Ryanair, who definately win the piss-pot for God awful service.

These vermin should be stopped as soon as possible. I don't know ADP let Easy Jet have slots. I would have thought they would have wanted to try and protect Air France.





 
eg777er
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sat Apr 05, 2003 5:09 pm

N79969, I would have thought that you had learned by now not to take anything written about Airbus/France in the Seattle Times as 'credible evidence'!

'Written by Boeing's PR Department' is a more acurate description IMHO!  Smile
 
varig md-11
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sat Apr 05, 2003 5:49 pm

Dear N79969

as discussed before, I have also doubts about the MH deal...this is to strange to be innocent for me too, though I find it lothable if that's the case

but as far as propaganda from the "NW source" is concerned:
"According to recent French news reports, the French airport authority gave Malaysia Airlines landing rights at Paris' Charles de Gaulle Airport three days after an order for six Airbus A380s. The airline had been seeking access for five years.

French accounts have indicated similar treatment for the British low-cost carrier easyJet, which bought 120 Airbus A319s"

please look at the facts : EZ got 7000 something slots, while virgin express which is in no-way a 'bus operator was given 5000 something

So as an airline if you have to buy 120 'buses to get only a lousy advantage of 2000 slots over a boeing fleet operator....then either the French are damn good negociators or the airlines CEO are dummies....maybe both!!

Jwenting
yes France is a bureaucracy country where nothing works and where there are strikes all the times.....that's why your fellow countrymen chose it as their 1st vacation destination I suppose : it reminds them home....
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justplanesmart
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sat Apr 05, 2003 6:22 pm

As someone who reads the Seattle Times daily, I can assure you that they are far from "Boeing's PR Department". In recent years, they seem to be very critical of Boeing, to the point where Boeing has disputed some articles quite vigorously.
"So many planes; so little time..."
 
airblue
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sat Apr 05, 2003 10:53 pm

Just to add that also the new Italian low cost airlines Volareweb got 3650 slots.
They are planning to use its newly allocated Paris Orly slots to transfer their new service to Bari, Milan Malpensa and Venice from Beauvais.



 
N79969
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 12:26 am

Eg777er and VarigMD-11,

The Seattle Times is a highly credible newspaper. Insulting the newspaper is not a refutation of the actual argument. That they report closely on of the city's largest employer and its chief competitor should not surprise anyone.

If I posted a Boeing press release, then you might have a point. Are you saying that they fabricated any part of that story?

2000 slots over Virgin Blue is a 40% advantage. They can offer either more frequencies or destinations or both. As you well know, one of an airline most important product attributes is network. Well, someone conferred a huge advantage onto EasyJet. And I suspect that their Airbus helped them tremendously. As I said before in reply 8, EasyJet was probably smart to buy the 319 if ORY access was a priority.

I hope the EU investigate takes action against France for these unfair practices.
 
varig md-11
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 2:09 am

Airblue
thanks to point it out and welcome to Volare in a real Parisian airport instead of 2hours away Beauvais

N79969
I'm not insulting this newspaper which I read quite often.
the articles are often very interesting and I understand it defends the main employer of the region.
but when it says Airbus wins market ONLY because of shady dealings....
It never says that such airline chose Airbus because it would allow greater economy/performance or whatever....no, it says it's only because Thai shrimps or chicken, or Russian metal products or whatever, are going to be allowed to enter EU : well that might weight in the balance but for sure that's not the only reason

I find it a shame the American people is driven into this "we-play-it-fair-not-the-neighbors" attitude

and if you read (maybe you do it) european press, you seldomly find "victimisation" articles concerning A vs B.

when AF is launch customer for 777-300er or the improved 747-400 cargo french newspapers are proud the airline buys top notch aircraft and don't spend time complaining about jobs lost or not lost in Toulouse....
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N79969
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 3:28 am

VarigMD-11,

That was directed more at Eg777ER. I should have clarified that point. I don't think there is an instance of Airbus being victimized in the A&B war. Airbus has historically been a government pet project. I think the fact that French and Pakistani presses are reporting a correlation between Airbus purchases and other trade concessions, I would say that the EU should wake up and smell the coffee. The French government is running a racket and should be fined or sanctioned.

I fully condemn US tariffs on steel and farm products. They harm US consumers and our friends abroad.

Although many in Europe like to bury their heads in the sand on this issue, Airbus is not a wealth creating enterprise but a wealth transfer mechanism dreamt up by France. A job gained in Tolouse or Hamburg is probably one lost in Seattle or Long Beach because of the economics of Airbus Industrie.
 
eg777er
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 3:49 am

2000 slots over Virgin Blue is a 40% advantage.

1. It's Virgin Express for a start.

2. Have you ever considered that slots are awarded according to the operator's ability to utilise them? Compared to Easyjet, VEX is a small airline. Why give them the same number of slots? Does AirTran get the same number of slots at 'x' as United? Of course not! If VEX were given the same number of slots as Easyjet a large number of them would be wasted.

Airbus is not a wealth creating enterprise but a wealth transfer mechanism dreamt up by France. A job gained in Tolouse or Hamburg is probably one lost in Seattle or Long Beach because of the economics of Airbus Industrie.

I've seen you say this before. Sorry, boy, but it's called competition. The Americans taught us Europeans that business is about the elimination of competition - but they don't like it when it adversely affects them!

I think what we have here is another American who cannot accept that perhaps Airbus have built a better product for Easyjet.....?
 
varig md-11
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 4:26 am

N79969

Airbus has always been supported 100% by France and the other partners - don't focus on ex-friend France please  Big grin - because otherwise we never would have got any serious aircraft manufacturer

so yes, it was at the beginning a job-transfer enterprise...you have to understand for years we paid overpriced 747 because no competition was available ; and the US never complained about the billions that were transferred to the states when AF or LH placed huge 747 orders...
Nevertheless I don't think anybody wants Boeing to dissapear

I agree with eg777er on the fact that VX is a much smaller airline than EZ
it's normal EZ has been given more slots than VX Airbus or not....
EZ is the biggest low cost in Europe, nothing to compare with Virgin Express : in fact I was quite surprised by the high number of slots to Virgin which for the moment doesn't even fly to Paris

Also you make an interesting remark : job losses at Long Beach ?
everybody knows sooner or later this factory will close  Sad
is it Airbus fault or because the plant assembles a renewed DC-9 nobody wants aside from Airtran and Bangkok airways??
and I'm not cynical at all because this plant is the plant where my beloved nickname plane was assembled



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N79969
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 4:35 am

Eg777ER,

Yes, you have supplied the same distorted response once again. Unlike on this side of the Atlantic, there was never a man named Pierre Airbus in Tolouse that started a company and organically grew into the airliner business. The story of Airbus is that French government saw US dominance in civil aviation and felt entitled to a piece of that pie. They bought their way in-- they did not compete their way into the market. Let's be clear about that. Remember, the French government referred to Boeing and McDonnell Douglas a 'monopoly' despite the fact the two companies competed against one another. That gives you an idea of their perspective.

I have no problem with European competition provided the EU is not bankrolling a company because it feels entitled to do so. I drive a VW and admire many European companies. Airbus is not one of them.

Airbus made an offer that Easyjet could not refuse: reimbursement for the cost of operating two-types, all pilot training, and a unit price that Boeing refused to match. Airbus executives were dying to get into the low cost segment and touted this undoubtedly unprofitable deal as their foot in the door. They bought their way in again and I (very credibly) speculate the French government sweetened the deal with hints of a favorable slot decision.

I guess you have a selective memory. I have said in many, many posts that Airbus builds some outstanding airplanes particularly the 330-200, 320, and 319.

 
LJ
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 5:56 am

If the French would have thanked easyJet for its purchase of 120 A319s then they would have given easyJet the slots they asked for and not only 7,300 slots (which means only 10 daily flights). Or better the French slot coordinator would have given easyJet the CDG slots it wants.
 
airDD
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 6:07 am


N79969,

Boeing is also "well" protected by the US government.

It let Boeing take over MDD; taking out an competitor.

Boeing's military wings is doing all the R&D that is used in the commercial division courtesy of the government.
The failed Sub-sonic cruiser initial design was done by NASA.

Through NATO most of the European armies must buy US military aircrafts.


Airbus' origin might be heavily subsidized by government but Boeing is cross-subsidized by US military orders.


airDD
 
varig md-11
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 6:20 am

AirDD

you open a front I would have never dared....though I agree with you Big grin
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doug_or
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 6:57 am

everyone is always talking aobut the subsudization of boeing through the military. if boeing commercial required military subsidization, why would boeing keep its commercial division? please, this is an honest question, not an anti-airbus argument.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
airDD
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 7:02 am


Doug_Or

Well, Boeing makes a profit on the commercial division since the R&D is paid for.

airDD
 
CX747
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 10:00 am

120 Airbus A319s = 7000 landing slots at Orly.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
N79969
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 10:00 am

AirDD,

Airbus is part of EADS. BCAG is part of Boeing. EADS is a huge defense contractor. You don't think that EADS uses corporate knowledge developed in the course of military contracting to help Airbus? Of course they do and they absolutely should.

Why do you think that Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas? To simply eliminate a competitor in the civil airliner business? Sorry, it would have been blocked. The McDD civil business was failing as it was. Boeing bought McDD for its military line. McDD was a failing company that would have liquidated eventually. It is called the 'failing firm' defense in antitrust law and was also the basis of the acquisition of TWA by American.

The US protects its civil airframers so well that Douglas exited the business. After the demise of McDonnell Douglas, you bet that the US government will not allow Europe to buy the remaining jobs in civil aerospace from Seattle and Long Beach. After the demise of McDonnell Douglas, you bet that the US government will not allow Europe to buy the remaining jobs in civil aerospace from Seattle and Long Beach.

There is absolutely no comparison between the support that Airbus and what Boeing supposedly receives in "cross-subsidization." Airbus has been the beneficiary of US aerospace research as well. Check out where the A310 wing came from.

"Through NATO most of the European armies must buy US military aircrafts."

What are you talking about here? I have seen nothing but a few US transports in the NATO military inventory. (Although Greece, Turkey, and some of the East Europeans have bought F-16s I here) Europe buys primarily European-made arms. And I do not blame them at all for that. However, they need to consolidate and rationalize their arms industry on the continent.


Back to Easy Jet, France's behavior is out of hand here. They should be punished.
 
airDD
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 10:02 am

N79969,

First of all, I don't deny that Airbus gets government help but my point is Boeing is getting it too. If you do some more research in EADS you will find that EADS still has to get its first military plane (A400) in the air. EADS military wing is neglectable compared to Boeings. Regarding F16's,every NATO country except France had to buy F16 in the 70ties as part of NATO; but the US which spends 4% (double than all of EU together) of its GDP on defense only buys from US firms.

MDD was not in chapter 11 unlike TWA, so 'failing firm' defense didn't apply.
If it wasn't for Airbus, Boeing would be alone.

Problem with Boeing is that Airbus has more efficient production processes (less people needed to build one plane) and has very competitive short-haul airplanes and Boeing is feeling "competed" against for the first time in a long time and is doing a PR war against Airbus.

Everybody speaks about Easyjet but Ryanair of Ireland placed an order for 150 737's over an offer for A319's...
Virgin Express got 5000 slots in Paris although their fleet contains less than 20 737's

airDD



 
N79969
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 11:39 am

AirDD,

As far as I know, the UK and Germany do not fly F-16s. They are longstanding members of NATO. EADS produces the Eurofighter (or soon will) and a number of helicopters. The A400M is an unneccesary aircraft and seems to be a subsidy to Airbus. There are already aircraft available in this segment such as the C-17. Why spend billions developing a military transport of all things when you can get one of the shelf at a fraction of the price? The addition of the A400M will allow Airbus to amortize fixed costs across a larger base thus lowering allocated costs on civil airframes. The US Coast Guard does operate French built helicopters.

Your statement is too general. Boeing receives nothing on the scale that Airbus does. For instance, European governments finance the development of individual aircraft types in whole or in part. I will leave the A300 out of the analysis but look at the rest of their products. Pretty much none of them would exist but for generous government subsidies. Only the A320-series seems to be an economically viable product post A300.

Roughly 25% of the A380s developments cost are directly underwritten by the EU in the form of 'repayable' loans. The loans must be repaid only if the A380 is profitable. I think this creates an incredibly perverse incentive for Airbus to avoid recording profits for some relevant time horizon. Further the simple fact that Airbus could not get 100% private financing for a supposedly profitable product should differentiate the kind of support that Airbus receives from any indirect support that Boeing receives. Airbus is a mature company with a very healthy market share and should not require what amounts to a loan guarantee for a risky product.

Unlike Boeing or any US civil airframer, Airbus has and never will have to bet its existence on a product. The L1011 killed Lockheed, the MD-11 killed McDD, and the 747 or 777 could have killed Boeing. Because of Airbus's unique form of existence, they engage in investments that are pure moral hazard. Why not build the A380 if you are certain that you cannot go out business?

When the DOJ (or was it FTC?) reviewed the Boeing/McDD merger, they analyzed the effects on the civil airliner business as a relevant market. In that market, McDD was a failing firm thus minimizing anti-competitive effects from the merger. I will find you the study or document later.

I am no engineer but I have read that Airbus is actually less efficient in many respects. First, they had two identical assembly lines for the 320 series. in France and Germany due to the political need to spread the work. Second, they have to ferry certain planes back and forth between Tolouse and Hamburg before the planes can be delivered. Again, the division is labor is the reason.

If it wasn't for Airbus, Long Beach would still be rolling out widebodies and narrowbodies. McDD did not fold because of Boeing.

I did not catch your last point. But I will add this comment. Boeing sold Ryanair 737s at a very low price. Airbus sold Easyjet 319s at a very low price AND assumed 100% of the risk and costs of operating a mixed fleet. Plus all pilot training, and I cannot remember the full goody bag.

But like I said before if I were EasyJet and wanted to secure slots at ORY, I would seriously give a point to 319 because of French precedent.

 
airDD
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 12:57 pm


N79969,

Again, I don't defend Airbus, I just want to explain that Boeing get government help too.

First 521 F16's were delivered to Belgium, Holland, Danemark & Sweden as part of a NATO program in the 70ties.
Number of "European" jetfighters in US Airforce : 0

And what do you think about : US government influencing Taiwan to drop the CAL Airbus order & the infamous 767 tanker lease ?

Fact is that Airbus employs half the number of employees of Boeing (commercial) to build the same number of aircraft. Toulose builds the aircrafts and Hamburg does the airliner customization (painting & interior)
Same as Everett & Seattle plants for Boeing.

US government let Boeing buy MDD to fight off Airbus, MDD could have survived alone even with the MD 95 and the military division.



Aviation has become a strategic industry for governments ...




 
N79969
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RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 4:07 pm

The US has had Canadian and Israeli-built fighters and aggressors in the inventory. The other thing to consider is that the state of European military technology is generally abysmal compared to the US. In many instances, the Europeans simply do not offer comparable technology. Because of the size of the US armed forces, our military manufacturers build huge economies of scales thus enabling investments in weapons technology that are simply not feasible elsewhere. The US has a clear and decisive comparative advantage in most high tech weaponry. It makes sense for the Europeans to buy US weaponry. I again point out the notable absence of F-16/F-15/F/A-18 aircraft from the UK and Germany's inventories. No one has been forced to buy F-16s. The JSF will actually have signficant European participation. If the US were actually eager to help Boeing indirectly, it probably would have awarded at least a portion of the $1 trillion/40-year JSF contract to Boeing instead of the winner Lockheed-Martin.

I also point out that many of those F-16s you mention are actually assembled in Europe by local workers.

I support the US government's pressure on CAL 110 percent. Here is why: CAL is the state-owned carrier of Taiwan. If Taiwan is attacked, the US will be the first (and possibly only) country to respond. In 1996, when China was conducting 'missle tests' in the Taiwan Strait, it was the United States that sent an aircraft carrier into the Strait to keep the peace. Since the US guarantees the security of Taiwan, I have no truck when the US government pressures that government to have its own carrier purchase US-made equipment. The government of Taiwan saves a tremendous amount of money and resources because of the aegis of US protection. Notice that EVA bought 330-200s and there were no trips by US Congressmen over the transaction. EVA is a privately-owned carrier. It is none of our business. I believe that the EU threatened Taiwan if they selected the 777 over 340 by CAL but I cannot verify that.

I believe the 767 tanker LEASE program is a subsidy and should be cancelled. It is a big gift to Boeing if actually implemented. However, I think the USAF is fully justified in replacing their 40-50 year old KC-135s with newer 767s. The US military has a problem with spares and maintenance on such old aircraft. I just think the 767 should be purchased outright instead of leased.

Don't let Airbus employment figures fool you. Airbus relies heavily on contract workers that work part-time. Sure they have fewer full-time workers. They can get rid of the contract workers as needed. Like Airbus finances, their employment figures rely heavily on smoke and mirrors.

Actually, you have the Airbus manufacturing system only partially correct. They actually build A319/321 in Hamburg. The rest are built in Tolouse and are flown up to Hamburg for the interiors. This is probably not very efficient. Don't you think?

You have the Boeing system wrong. Boeing's plants are in Renton (737/757) and Everett (767/747/777). They build, paint, and finish their aircraft at the respective plants. They do not fly them to other locations unless a customer contracts a third company to install specialized equipment like certain first-class seats and so on.

Again, you are incorrect about the Boeing and McDD merger. Not only did the US approve the merger, but so did the EU. The EU also had jurisidiction over it. Why would they help Boeing fight Airbus? I repeat that by 1995, McDD became non-factor in the civil business thus the merger had minimal effects on competition. There were no legitimate grounds for the US to block the transaction. There were even less for Europe. Heck, the elimination of McDD helped Airbus surely. Contrary to what you think, McDD commercial division would have failed had it relied on MD-95 and a handful of MD-11 orders. The pace of orders was too slow to cover the fixed costs of keeping the line open.

I agree that aviation is a politically sensitive industry.
 
eg777er
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Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 4:30 pm

Unlike on this side of the Atlantic, there was never a man named Pierre Airbus in Tolouse that started a company and organically grew into the airliner business.

Duh! The companies that brought you the Trident, Concorde, the VC-10, the Viscount, the Caravelle etc. etc. merged themselves to form Airbus! Someone in France didn't, as you suggest, sit down and say "we want to build aeroplanes".

It was more like "European companies build lots of different aeroplanes in different factories for different customers. What if we merged all these companies and created a bigger company that could compete with American manufacturers? So we can benefit from economies of scale, purchasing etc. etc."

From the Airbus website:

The co-operation between the different entities that make up Airbus today goes back to the 1920s. Construcciones Aeronauticas S.A. (CASA) of Spain built seaplanes under licence from German company Dornier and worked with the French on the Bréguet XIX. Then in the 1950s, a number of Franco-German aviation projects saw the light of day. The 1960s saw the first real co-operative effort between French and German aircraft manufacturers on the Transall, followed by the Concorde adventure between the French and the British.

I suggest you brush up on your European aviation history. Otherwise your argument gets more and more ludicrous!
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:17 pm

RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Sun Apr 06, 2003 5:00 pm

quote "It makes sense for the Europeans to buy US weaponry"

I agree, but that's exactly the point :thinking this way, we europeans shouldn't have started Airbus and we should have bought Boeing....
why start a new company gathering all the know-how we have when America is providing us with excellent machines already??

something that is not bothering you but bothering us : billions of taxpayer € are transferred to your side of the atlantic, enriching Seattle and your economy and placing us in a technology dependant position.
we're not talking cars or frozen beef : we're talking aircraft at a catalogue price of around 150 million $ each (B747)....

count the number of 747 flying in Euroland and you'll have an idea why our governments launched Airbus
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Mon Apr 07, 2003 1:09 am

VarigMd-11,

I understand your point. Actually, I take it into account in one of my earlier posts where I exclude the A300 from my analysis. I do not blame Europe for helping Airbus start up. That is not a big deal. What bothers me is that after starting it up, the governments kept funding specific types of aircraft even as the company grew. Airbus has become the adult child that lives at home on an allowance. Even though they may have exceeded 50% market share, they are still getting government assistance to develop the A380. I have a big problem with this.

These planes are not for purely domestic consumption either. Airbus goes around the world and makes questionable deals to hawk their airplanes. They tie slots, possible subcontracting, and other trade concessions for Airbus purchases. This MH A380/CDG slot fiasco is very suspicious. The net effect is a transfer of jobs and wealth away from Seattle and Long Beach to Tolouse and Hamburg. The economic pie is not growing but the EU is buying a bigger piece for Airbus to the detriment of Boeing. In this regard, the EU has gone too far in helping what should be a private, indepenedent company.


Eg777ER,

On the contrary, I think my posts are far from ludicrous and are more cogent than your less-than-useful one liners.

Why was Airbus setup? It does not go back to the 1920s. I can assure of you that. The US bought Caravelles and Tridents and other jets.


 
ba319-131
Posts: 8151
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 1:27 pm

RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Mon Apr 07, 2003 1:51 am

If my memory serves me correctly,UA bought 20 Caravelles,no airlines in the Unites States bought or operated Tridents at all.

This has turned out into another A vs B argument,another waste of time.

Both Airbus and Boeing produce excellent,reliable and safe airplanes.

How they choose to market and sell their planes is up to them.

How the planes are finance is none of our concern.

Airbus planes have a very high US content in each aircraft build,Boeing planes have a very low European content when build.

It would appear both Boeing and Airbus are doing a good job of supporting the US economy to me.

Now to what I wanted to say before I read all that stuff before,lets hope Easyjet will start LGW-ORY.There is some great domestic French 'stuff' to be spotted and ORY needs direct links to London.

Rgds

BA319-131
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
DatamanA340
Posts: 535
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 7:02 pm

RE: N79969

Mon Apr 07, 2003 2:19 am


Although I'm not against Boeing, I doubt you also have a selective memory. Do you know how US government worked for Korean Air's 27+ 737s and Korean Air Force's 40 F-15K's recent days? Otherwise, on the other side of the Pacific, there are some more cases.

The most emerging carriers in European markets are Easyjet and, Ryanair. Do you wanna say that Ryanair grown up because of its airbuses? I don't think that you're that ridiculous. (Actually you know much better!!)

Easyjet now has 67 737s while Virgin is with only 14. Well, I don't think anyone could blame that ATL gives most of slots to DL because it's all-Boeing.

 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Mon Apr 07, 2003 5:41 am

The L-1011 killed Lockheed, what is now the world's largest defense contractor and possibly one of the world's largest companies? Not so much.

The US paid a direct grant to Emirates for selecting the GP7200. Not under the table, or anything, but a direct cash subsidy to "promote trade between the UAE and the US". They unsat a devoted RR customer with a blatant bribe. Emirates chose to spend this money to train UAE native pilots.

I also enjoy the equivalent of almost $100 million per frame the US is going to pay for the 767 tankers, and only for a ten year term.

This whole argument is moot. The US protects and subsidizes Boeing, the EU countries protect and subsidize Airbus. Its all done legally on both sides, its just the legalities are different. We really should move on from it.

The Seattle PI article is not proof of anything. It points out, correctly, that two interesting events happened in an interesting timeframe. Analysis is not proof.


N
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots

Mon Apr 07, 2003 7:42 am

BA319-131,

I am very concerned about how these sales are financed. Some of this financing distorts trade and moves jobs. You should be concerned as a taxpayer if France is running a racket with its slots. Boeing doesn't procure that much from Europe because it subcontracts extensively in Japan. Check out how much of the 777 fuselage is from Japan. The 777 brakes are built by Bugatti I believe.

DatamanA340,

Governments lobby for their companies all the time. I am not complaining about commercial diplomacy. Governments should lobby on behalf of their constituent companies but within some limits. Pakistan should not be punished in the textile trade because of their aircraft selection. Korean Air (the aerospace manufacturing arm) is actually a signficant partner in the PW4000 series. It also supplies parts like stringers and ribs for the B777. And did so for the MD-11. Korea has used offsets very well.

Gigneil,

The argument is not moot actually. Let's say two college kids "got help" from their parents. The first kid receives money for books and gas. The second kid receives tuition money, spending money, a car, trips, and anything else. Sure Airbus and Boeing receive help but there is a huge difference. The Seattle PI article makes a very compelling case of some sleight-of-hand tricks by the French authorities. They cite to French news reports of these tactics. The L1011 forced Lockheed out of the civil business. They were once one of the leaders.

I have never heard of this UAE until now. I missed it. I am intrigued. Do you have a link?