United777
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Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:53 am

I really hope this topic does not start a bad debate and make people hate each other but after reading that news Thai Airways will order the A340-500/ -600 I was thinking about this.

What does the A340-500 /-600 have the Boeing 777-200LR /-300ER doesn't! The 772LR is aimed at the A345 and the 773ER at the A346. It seems like more airline are picking the 340 series! Iberia Airlines picked the 340 over the 777-300ER. The new 340 aircrafts have many more customer than the new 777s. Yea the 772LR comes out a few years after the A345 but it has more range. The 777 has always been picked over the A340 by airlines and passengers! Do the new 340s have new interiors to compete with the award winning 777 interior.

Also the airlines that have ordered the 340-500 and A340-600 have ordered more aircraft than the airline that have ordered the 777-200LR and 777-300ER.

Do you think Boeing should be worried that all potential 777LR and 773ER customers are already order the 340-500 and A340-600?

I'll have to say in my personal opinion the A340-600 has a very bright future more than the 777-300ER. I know some might not agree with me of course.
 
artsyman
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:55 am

I would say that the economy and the fact that American companies are feeling a pretty heavy backlash due to Americas pretty poor image in the rest of the world.
 
Marcus
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:00 am

Really?..............I would expect one thing to be boycotting Mc Donald's or French wine because of personal views......but an airline company getting in that silly game?
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gigneil
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300

Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:08 am

That's America's childish views about just France.

The whole world has a problem with us right now, and rightfully so.

That aside, I know few passengers that are not aviation fanatics that prefer 3-3-3 or 2-5-2 to the 2-4-2 on the A340.

N
 
artsyman
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:12 am

I agree, right or wrong, the worlds opinion of America has never been lower. This is not to suggest that this is the only reason, just one of the reasons.
 
United777
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:18 am

Alright fella's back to my topic! Damm it I know this would happen.  Smile
 
N79969
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:29 am

I don't think anything is wrong with the 777NG. First, neither plane is in service. That inhibits some carriers from ordering the types. Second these aircraft have already garnered a respectable number of order considering to the best of my recollection:

Firm 773ER orders:

JAL
ANA
AF
BR
PK
GECAS

Prospective:
CX
Emirates
ILFC?

The last Yahoo! press release I saw quoted an executive from Thai saying that the Airbus 340s would be $100 million each. After reading, I assumed they had to be getting 343s judging by the price. Again to the best of my recollection, the standard 777-300 (not ER) is the most expensive product Boeing sells at over $200 million catalog. I think we can safely assume that the 773ER will cost more.

Airbus gave Thai an incredible deal apparently. That is no shortcoming of the 777.
 
artsyman
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 7:04 am

I still think it has a lot to do with the economy. Of the top 6 airlines in the US, Delta, Continental, United, American all use the 777, and US and NW don't. If the economy for the US carriers was better, then you would probably see some of these aircraft going to them, but that isnt going to happen any time in the near term
 
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STT757
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 7:18 am

Oh please, Countries like Thailand are gobbling up US Military equipment exports.

And Spain is one of the Nations Supporting the coalition to disarm Saddam's regime.

They "could" boycott Boeing's Commercial aviation division, but no way they would not buy American made military equipment.

US Military technology is far superior to anything EADS or Russia produces, and that advantage is one reason why Boeing can ride this economic downturn and Airbus (EADS) will have to go back to the well (subsidies).
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B-HOP
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 7:19 am

Poor US image
ETOPS (mightbe?)
Exclusive GE engines
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Hamlet69
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 7:32 am

United777,

Actually, I hold the exact opposite viewpoint you do.

If we look at the sales of the A340NG vs. the 777LR, we notice that the A340-500 is beating the 777-200LR by a significant margin, while the A340-600/777-300ER battle is virtually a dead heat. However, one must first take into consideration that the A340NG has been offered for nearly 3 years longer than the 777LR. This immediately should add credence to the Boeing twin.

Next, let us also look at the specific orders. When we do, we find that, so far, both aircraft have captured 'expected' orders (i.e., orders from previous A340/777 operators, respectively):

A340NG
Aerolineas Argentinas (4 A342) orders 6 A346.
Air Canada (8 A343) orders 2 A345 and 3 A346.
Iberia (18 A343) orders 8 A346.
Lufthansa (7 A342 and 28 A343) orders 10 A346.
Virgin Atlantic (7 A343) orders 10 A346.
China Eastern (5 A343) orders 5 A346.
Qatar Amiri (1 A342) orders 1 A345.

777LR
All Nippon (15 772, 4 772ER, 15 773) orders 6 773ER.
Japan Airlines (7 772, 11 772ER, 8 773) orders 8 773ER.

At first glance, this tells us that current operators are sticking with a particular airframe. However, it should be noted that Virign Atlantic, Qatar Amiri (and I've heard rumors of China Eastern) are using their newly ordered aircraft, not as expansion, but to replace their current fleet. This should immediately tell us that there is something wrong with the A340-300, as a 10 year old aircraft should not need replacement (a la MD-11).


Now, we must look at those orders that we could consider 'decisive.' In other words, customers who have either both A340 & 777, or neither aircraft in their current fleet.

both
Singapore (17 A343, 772ER, 8 773) orders 5 A345.
Air France (14 + 4 A343, 18 772ER) orders 10 773ER.
EgyptAir (3 A342, 5 772ER) orders 2 A346.

neither
Pakistan Int'l orders 3 772ER, 2 772LR, 3 773ER.
EVA Air orders 3 772LR and 4 773ER (+ 8 UFO 773ER).
South African orders 6 A343 and 6 A346.

Here we again see a virtual dead heat. Three customers have gone A340, while three have gone 777. One last note is that Singapore ordered the A345 before the decision to replace the A343 fleet, and before the specifications for the 777-200LR was finalized. At the time, the -200X was very much an under-performing airframe. Not so with the -200LR. There has been constant talk of SQ going ahead with a -200LR order to replace the -500. It can only be speculated if this will actually occur or not.

Finally, we have Emirates, who is a 777 operator (an A330) and has ordered the A340-500, and is expected to sign a 777-300ER order at Paris. This airline is difficult to gauge, as they seem willing to buy just about anything that comes out. However, they are also one of the more performance-oriented airlines, which can be very telling.

Overall, I don't see the A340NG capturing too many more significant orders. I will discuss both Thai and Cathay at a later date, as they are both interesting cases. However, after we have looked at the current customer list, it should be apparent that those current A340 customers who are in a position to order the A340NG have done so, while most major 777 operators have yet to ante-up to the 777LR, mostly due to the later development schedule and current economic climate. When the time comes, 777LR orders should soar.

Regards,

Hamlet69

P.S. - Much more to say, but this is getting rather long.
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donder10
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 7:38 am

Poor US image will not affect aircraft sales too much IMO.The poor world economy is the biggest hinderance to 777NG sales followed by the GE exclusivity deal IMO.
 
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STT757
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 7:42 am

Air France is a 777-300ER customer, they might even be the launch customer.
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donder10
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 7:48 am

They are the launch customer AFAIK.Aren't they going to use it to replace the 744/2/3s or as a complement?
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 7:53 am

Neither a poor U.S. world image nor GE exclusitivity are large factors in 777LR sales. The former, as this rarely affects multi-billion dollar contracts to begin with, unless it is from politically controlled entities. The latter, as GE has proven that performance and maintanence issues far outweigh training. This has been witnessed with JAL and ANA, as well as comments from CX stating they didn't consider engine commonality a factor (CX is strongly rumored to be close to a deal for the 777-300ER) while SQ has flat out stated that this is a non-issue. Also remember that the A340NG have virtual engine exclusitivity as well - for an engine family not available on the A340-200/-300.

Purchase price, OTOH, is a large factor.

Regards,

Hamlet69
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sllevin
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300

Thu Apr 03, 2003 8:14 am

The Iberia deal is in itself instructive. Airbus had to give significant concessions to get the deal, far beyond the price of the aircraft itself. Specifically, Airbus has guaranteed a resale value to Iberia should Iberia opt to sell the fleet.

Why is that significant? Because the A340, while more expensive to operate, costs less than the 777. For Iberia, that means that if things are slow, and they fly the planes less, they spend less money. In short, the 340 'eats less' when sitting unused on the ramp.

When times are good, and you are flying more, then the hourly costs will become more significant.

Iberia has the best of both worlds. In the short term, they hedge by buying Airbus. If flying picks up, they have the option of getting out of the 340's without significant financial consequences.

The future will be interesting, indeed.

Steve
 
luisca
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 9:10 am

Also remember that The rumored UPS Deal could sway the balance to the 777-200LR instead of the A345.
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Ikarus
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 9:35 am

Hamlet69: I thought Virgin is using the A346 to replace 747 classics, not A343s?

What's going to happen to the VS A343s, then?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300

Thu Apr 03, 2003 11:11 am

perhaps some of you are also forgetting that the A340NGs had about a 2.5yr headstart on the 777LRs!
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300

Thu Apr 03, 2003 11:35 am

Also remember that The rumored UPS Deal could sway the balance to the 777-200LR instead of the A345.

And EK & LH Cargo to that as well... both of whom expressed interest in a 90Ton 772LRF  Big grin
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CRJ 900
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RE:

Thu Apr 03, 2003 11:50 am

i'm wondering if Thai just wants 4 engined long haul a/c? Personally i'd buy the Boeing product, but I'm not the one buying.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:02 pm

could be... it's worth noting that TG did withdraw operating its 773As under ETOPS120, which is pretty pathetic IYAM.
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gigneil
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300

Thu Apr 03, 2003 1:11 pm

Virgin is indeed replacing 742s with the 346 - not replacing 343s.

Qatar's Amiri flight likes their 342 fine... but as we know, the 342 isn't the best shrink in the world.

N
 
cloudy
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 1:58 pm

This should immediately tell us that there is something wrong with the A340-300, as a 10 year old aircraft should not need replacement (a la MD-11).
----

The thing that went wrong with the A-340 was that the "Superfan" program died. Airbus was counting on a vastly superior engine to sell this bird. When that failed to materialize, the A340 was a sitting duck for the 777.

Airbus hopes the -500 and -600 fulfill the original promise of the A340. As to the 777LR - from what I've heard- the economic advantages of a twin over a quad start to fade over the kind of distances these planes operate. Yet the 777 will probably have more cargo volume, so we will have to see....

Anyway, Boeing is now taking the same risk with the 7E7 as Airbus took with the A340. Because it has a more or less conventional configuration - most of the 7E7's savings will have to come from newer materials and better engines. If Boeing's suppliers and the major enginemakers can't make it happen - Boeing could end up giving much less then they are promising now. Its a risky game......
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 2:27 pm

from what I've heard- the economic advantages of a twin over a quad start to fade over the kind of distances these planes operate

methinks someone's been reading a little too much airbus.com propaganda.... especially considering that this claim isnt supported by other sources of evidence (not to mention Boeing  Nuts)



Yet the 777 will probably have more cargo volume

actually, the A340NGs are to have more available cargo volume... though the 777NGs are to carry greater payload.
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dynkrisolo
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 10:30 pm

VS original plan was to replace the older 742s with the 346s. After 9/11, VS wanted to cancel the 346 order. Airbus renegotiated with VS. At the end, Airbus was able to keep the VS 346 order by agreeing to offering some financing and taking back VS's 10 343s. As someone has pointed out in another thread, Airbus has apparently arranged selling two of VS's 343s to the French Air Force. So, VS is replacing the 343s with the 346s.
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 11:15 pm


If memory serves me correctly the orginal 340s were launched and in service before the 777. The 777 came and was like a good ole can wup a$$ for the 340. I think that history may be repeating itself.

As for the 7E7 faling I am sure that GE can work some magic and come up woith an engine that would make the 7E7 as economic as Boeing claims. question what wrong with the Trents cant they also be used, they are fairly modern, or is boeing looking for something completely new?
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gkirk
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Thu Apr 03, 2003 11:39 pm

Maybe the airlines actually done months of research into both aircraft and found that the A340 was better for their individual needs. Whereas some people on here take 2 minutes to think about it and say 777 is better because its American or Airbus recieves loans etc etc.
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Hamlet69
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Fri Apr 04, 2003 4:53 am

Sllevin,

It went unnoticed at the time, but Iberia let slip a little detail about their A340-300 order that Leahy didn't want disclosed. According to The Wall Street Journal Europe, Airbus promised residual values on the original -300s, not just the -600s. Apparently, Leahy is quite upset that this detail was released to the news media.


Ikarus,

As already mentioned, that was the original plan. However, now the A340-300s will be returned to ILFC (3) and Airbus (7). At least 2 will be going to the French Air Force for V.I.P. transports. The rest I have not heard yet. I've also heard Virgin might keep a few. We'll have to see.


Crj900,

"i'm wondering if Thai just wants 4 engined long haul a/c?"

Above all, Thai wants the best deal. They've stated that they can buy the A340NG's for $100 million apiece. I'm not sure what the list price is, but I know that would be a 50% discount for the 777LRs, which avg. list at $200M. There is no way Boeing can match that price. In fact, I'm surprised Airbus is even going that low, as development costs for the A340NG program have been pegged at @ $3.5 billion.

Regards,

Hamlet69
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hkg82
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Fri Apr 04, 2003 5:08 am

The General Electric GE90-115B engines that will power these aircraft are absolutely fucking massive!!!!


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I don't know how the wings can hold that on there!! Can you imagine FOUR of those?!

I'm just imagining an 07R (at HKG) landing with those babies!

I seem to recall reading somewhere that PIA would be the launch customer for the 773ER? Can you imagine PIA with those engines?! They'll probably take them off, and strap them onto their nukes, as the only way to get them past their own borders!! Big grin

Hkg82.


 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Fri Apr 04, 2003 5:14 am

Can you imagine FOUR of those

F^ck that... the 777 is a TWINJET par excellence.... the reason it's so great!  Big grin



I seem to recall reading somewhere that PIA would be the launch customer for the 773ER?

Nope, that would be AF. PK has jumped ahead of BR to launch the 772LR... but that may change as other customers are brought on, or BR gets its head on straight  Nuts
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United777
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Fri Apr 04, 2003 5:59 pm

Thanks for the comments fella's!

I think these are great products both Airbus and Boeing have made, just they are coming into service during bad times in the aviation industry. Unlike when the first 777s rolled out before the "good days" of avation when Boeing and sometimes Airbus was getting multi-billion dollar orders almost every month it seemed like. I think it will be another five years or longer to know what airline most prefer!

I have to say the A340-600 length looks amazing but the 777-200LR range is more amazing and those engines on the 777-300ER are even more amazing. I saw the 773ER fly over downtown Seattle the other day and you just notice those huge engines.

I think when the 772LR goes into service it not get much attention due to the A380 coming out around the same period.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Fri Apr 04, 2003 6:07 pm

the case could be made that the 777NGs are Boeing's answer to the A380... medium-capacity/ultralongrange/point-to-point versus superhigh-capcity/longrange/hub-to-hub.

The market is currently there for each type, but tough to tell if it's enough for both of them to exist profitably at the same time.
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Hamlet69
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Tue Apr 08, 2003 6:29 am

Airbus has just released their March '03 updates, and there is an interesting detail that (obviously) went unreported earlier.

As part of the deal for 7 A330-200s, Egyptair has cancelled their outstanding order for 2 A340-600s. One must now question what the future holds for the 747-300 replacement. A later re-order for the A346? A 773ER order? None at all, leaving the 777-200ER the largest aircraft in the fleet?

It will also be interesting to see if the A330-200s will not only replace the A300s, but also the A340-200s. . .

Regards,

Hamlet69
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300

Tue Apr 08, 2003 10:08 am

Hammy, what wonderful news.

I do believe that it was reported, the the language left many of us confused as to whether or not the order was cancelled or delayed.

MS operates PW-powered 772ERs, correct?
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Hamlet69
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RE: Whats Wrong With The New 777-200LR And 777-300ER

Wed Apr 09, 2003 2:47 am

"MS operates PW-powered 772ERs, correct?"

Correct. Which means that no matter which route they take (A346 or 773ER), they will be introducing a new engine type.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.