duke
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 1999 9:52 pm

The Safety Of The MD-11

Tue Apr 08, 2003 10:45 am

It should be old news by now that the final report
on the 1998 crash of MD-11 HB-IWF of Swissair
(flight 111) at Peggys Cove is in: the crash should
be related to problems with wires installed for an
entertainment system.

My question: has anything been done to ensure that
other MD-11s (and other planes, for that matter) are
free of this defect?

P.S. - of the 4 other crashes of MD-11s, which, if any,
can be said to be in any way related to flaws in the
aircraft's design? is the MD-11, my favorite airliner, a
safe plane?
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Tue Apr 08, 2003 10:55 am

There are similarities in the other reports... mostly due to instability at landing.

This is something else MDD pioneered that Airbus now has right... software controls to allow for a smaller vert. stab.

N
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:17 am

in addition to the 4 fatal M11 accidents on record... there have also been two nonfatal misshaps... both operated by FedEx, and both having to do with problems controling the trijet on landing: the first was this "backflip" accident at EWR, and the second was this submerging accident in the Bahamas.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised that there were no fatalities in either case!!!


Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:23 am

And of course there was the FedEx M11 that crashed off Fiji with Tom Hanks and a few extras onboard.  Laugh out loud

Other MDD "innovations" Airbus has/is after include a variable voltage power bus, and high pressure hydraulics... but they have all the mistakes to learn from. We'll have to wait n see.

N
 
POSITIVE RATE
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 11:31 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:33 am

Yes but he asked whether the wiring defects had been fixed and nobody answered that one. Have the wiring problems on the MD-11 been resolved??
 
dl1011
Posts: 315
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 6:42 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:49 am

I recall reading that the rest of the Swiss IFE systems were deactivated and that the company that produced the system has moved out of the IFE business.

Also, other articles have discussed the installation problems
found. Things such as long wire runs with no circuit breaker
protection and the IFE powered off of Essential Busses.

Any MD pilots that can comment on landing the beast? There seem to be problems in that area.
 
MD-11 forever
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:15 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:39 pm

Well, first of all, the use of Kapton wires is not limited to the MD-11's. Therefore, the question should be t"the safety of wiring on civil aircrafts"....

Yes, the M11 has been modified (at least the Swiss fleet) with an extensive package including devices to detect the location of a fire if it's "hidden" by the ceiling and the location of the backup flight instruments has been improved, based on lessons learned from the accident.

Concerning the landing of this plane, I'm not a pilot, but I had a couple of discussions to pilots, and they all can not understand the fuss some members on this board are producing. Or is the FAA sleeping again?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Cheers, Thomas
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 10:03 pm

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:08 pm

That FedEx in the drink happened in the Philippines, not the Bahamas.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
wn700driver
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 10:55 pm

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:05 pm

I always thought the saftey issue surrounding the M11 was with just the elements of a landing evolution.

I have often heard it reffered to as "The Scud" by its operaters for that reason.

The IFE stuff was news to me...
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:08 pm

That FedEx in the drink happened in the Philippines, not the Bahamas

Correct you are. All I remember about it was "Freeport", and immediately thought "Bahamas!"... when in trugh, it was Freeport, Philippines

Silly me Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
lgbguy
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 3:05 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Tue Apr 08, 2003 10:12 pm

The aircraft that crashed in Castaway was an A310!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The wiring was done by an outside contract firm which installed the entertainment system, not DAC in Long Beach.

The McDonnell Douglas pilots that I know, love the MD11 and say it was a great airplane to fly.

That's all I have to say about that.

lgbguy
 
DeltaMD11
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:56 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:13 am

The question here would be the safety of kapton wires. The INFE systems on Swiss's MD-11's were installed by a 3rd party company, therefore negating any blame at MDC for that. As far as I know, the MD-11 is just as safe as anything out there flying today-if it were not, it wouldn't have an operating certificate Big grin

Bryan

Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
Unique
Posts: 1621
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:48 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:26 am

Does anybody know the exact reason for the landing accident of Mandarin at Kai Tak? Typhoon alone cannot be blamed as many aircraft landed safely before...
 
DeltaMD11
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:56 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:34 am

Well.....just because aircraft have landed in typhoons before does not mean that it can be done 100% of the time without a problem. Inexperience of the crew can contribute. Back in the 1980's (I believe) a United 737 crashed in the Potomac River on departure out of Washington National, and the main factor that contributed to that was the crew's inexperience of cold weather conditions. Aircraft had departed before this one without a hitch...but adverse conditions, coupled with crew inexperience can be a big problem. Let me go do a little research in regards to the Mandarin MD-11, and I'll get back to you with a more-definitive answer.

Bryan
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
Unique
Posts: 1621
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:48 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:40 am

Thanks Bryan! By the way, it was an Air Florida B737 diving into Potomac River...
 
DeltaMD11
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:56 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:42 am

As originally thought by me (had to go back and read through this case again to refresh my memory), the Mandarin MD-11 crashed due to adverse weather conditions. As quoted from airdisaster.com:

"The aircraft crashed on landing in Hong Kong during Typhoon Sam. Just before touchdown, while landing with a 24-knot crosswind, the right wing struck the runway which caused the aircraft to cartwheel and slide down the runway upside down."

So basically what that inferrs is that the pilots were having control difficulties due to the high cross winds, and as a result of the wing hitting the ground, the aircraft won the gold medal in airplane gymnastics.

Bryan

[Edited 2003-04-08 18:43:48]
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 10:03 pm

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Wed Apr 09, 2003 9:40 am

The Mandarin MD-11 crashed due to a Massive down blast that funneled down the roof of the terminal onto the runway. That was the reason.

I saw the video of this aircraft on final approach and the flash of fire in the right wing before it burst into flames. Nothing looked wrong and then BANG...
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1064
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Wed Apr 09, 2003 2:05 pm

Any idea where we could see this video? would be very interesting to see.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Wed Apr 09, 2003 2:12 pm

There was another accident at DCA in the 1980s where an aircraft mistook the Potomac for the runway at night and tried to land on the river.
I believe that too was a 737.

The wiring on the Swissair aircraft has been suspected of being the cause for a long time now. It was not installed by MD themselves but rather by another company that didn't follow the same QA standards.
At the time other MD-11s were checked for potential faults in the wiring and none were found.
I wish I were flying
 
MD-11 forever
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:15 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Wed Apr 09, 2003 2:48 pm

"The wiring on the Swissair aircraft has been suspected of being the cause for a long time now. It was not installed by MD themselves but rather by another company that didn't follow the same QA standards.
At the time other MD-11s were checked for potential faults in the wiring and none were found."
******************

As far as I know, there were also original (MDC installed) wires found with signs of arcing on the kapton. The IFEN wiring was installed by a third party company. Just to clarify this.

Cheers, Thomas
 
Unique
Posts: 1621
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:48 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:28 pm

The fire on HB-IWF originated in the wiring overhead the front galley. There was an electrical short-circuit but the fuse did not pop out hence the power was not cut and caused the fire. The isolation mats around the wiring provided a basis to spread the fire towards the passenger cabin until the crew disconnected the aircondition, causing the fire to travel forward again.
As always, it was an unfortunate combination of several factors.
A clincher, however, was that the fire was not detected for quite a while, causing the crew to decide to dump fuel first rather than initiate an emergency descend and immediate (overweight) landing at YHZ.
 
Unique
Posts: 1621
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:48 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:54 pm

For full information on ill-fated SR111, go to http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/1998/a98h0003/01report/index.asp
 
POSITIVE RATE
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 11:31 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Wed Apr 09, 2003 6:13 pm

The aircraft that hit the Potomac river on departure was an Air Florida 737-200 in January 1982. The crash was caused by one of the engine instrument probes icing up, causing the EPR gauge to overread. The pilots thought they had takeoff power set when in fact it was nowhere near it, so they stalled and crashed.
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:07 pm

An operating certificate doesn't mean that an aircraft is just as safe as all other aircraft. That certificate means that it conforms to a standard set of minimums. As in any industry, how far above minimums is determined by the manufacturer. The MD-11, as all other aircraft, conform to minimum standards set out by the FAA. How far above minimum standards is where the debate is found.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Thu Apr 10, 2003 2:19 am

Sure the Mandarin MD11 that crashed in HKG occurred during poor weather, but the FedEx crash at Newark was an identical crash, without the bad weather. There has to be a problem with the aircraft when two suffer identical accidents. No doubt that pilots like the aircraft, but possibly cos it's a challenge rather than cos it's smooth. What about the Koreanair MD11 that went down over Shanghai?

And the plane in Castaway was an MD11, the cockpit was DEFINITELY an MD11 and after it's in the water and Tom Hanks gets to the surface, he nearly gets swallowed by a still-turning engine (implausible I grant you). The engine that nearly stopped him from spending seven years working on his sun tan was on the tailfin. It was an MD11 (A310s don't cross the Pacific anyway).
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Unique
Posts: 1621
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:48 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Thu Apr 10, 2003 2:22 am

Cedarjet, movies make you believe everything!  Big thumbs up
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: The Safety Of The MD-11

Thu Apr 10, 2003 3:33 am

Does this look like a stabilised final to you? And I wasn't even looking for a picture to go on this thread, I was browsing shots at Taipei while I was on the phone to someone who was boring, and thought, oh look, another Scud attack. Or should that be 'bouncing bomb', considering the distinct possibility that it's preparing for it's second impact.


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Photo © Camus Tseng

fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz