dripstick
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Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:56 am

"'How do you screw up a monopoly?" - Clive Beddoe of Westjet Airlines.

http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=hamilton/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1049839365236&call_pageid=1014656273827

By Mike Pettapiece
The Hamilton Spectator

"Forgive Clive Beddoe a brief flirtation with attitude.

It's just that his WestJet Airlines basks in the warm glow of profit while rival Air Canada huddles in the dismal chill of bankruptcy protection.

The chairman of low-fare king WestJet is blunt: Air Canada cannot match his airline's cost model and will be a slim shadow of itself tomorrow.

By one measure, WestJet's cost of operating is half that of Air Canada, he tells a McMaster University alumni lunch in Hamilton.

More than that, the traditional hub-and-spoke airport model of the industry just doesn't fly anymore. "That's why I'm pretty harsh on Air Canada today when I say the state they're in is of their own making," says the normally low-key Beddoe. "... How do you screw up a monopoly?" he adds.

And it's "absolute nonsense" to think that even Zip -- Air Canada's so-called discount airline out west, headed by McMaster grad Steve Smith -- can operate as cheaply and efficiently as WestJet. In fact, Air Canada's strategy has been transparent all along. "It's designed to undermine us," he says later in an interview. "It's not designed to bring low fares to Canadians."

WestJet's growth plans will remain steady, he says. The Calgary-based airline expects to grow by 50 per cent this year but won't rush into areas vacated by Air Canada or into trans-border flights, ahead of an 18-month target date.

It won't have in-flight meals, nor is it ready to add a frequent-flyer points system. For now, WestJet will continue pitching the virtues of pretzels and warm smiles. Wardair, he reminded listeners, was a great airline. But its food was costing $96 per passenger.

WestJet may cut flight frequencies between some cities and increase them between others. And it may add new routes sooner, such as between Montreal and Halifax.

"Hamilton probably is going to see most of the benefit of our growth, one way or the other," he says in the interview, both in the revamped frequencies and for trans-border runs.

Beddoe, one of four founding WestJet shareholders, sees Air Canada bailing out of regional routes. That will open up niches for other players, using small planes, such as Dash-8 propeller-driven aircraft.

WestJet's share of the domestic market is now almost 20 per cent. Air Canada's is likely less than 80 per cent now. At the end, Air Canada was losing about $3.8 million a day, said Beddoe.

During his presentation, he spun a handsome tale of WestJet's success. He told of booming revenues and profit plan-rich employees. One plunked down a $286,000 downpayment on a B.C. home.

"We've turned our employees into filthy capitalists is what we've done," he says to laughter in the convention centre room.

In 1996, the first year of operation for WestJet, the airline had revenues of $37 million. Last year, it was $680 million. In its initial year, there were 7,300 takeoffs. Last year, there were 65,000.

Like the U.S. low-cost pioneer, Southwest Airlines, WestJet shuns the hub-and-spoke model of normal airline practice. That model aims to have several connections so that an incoming passenger on one flight can rush to an outgoing flight on another plane.

But that means jets lay over at airports buzzing with connectivity. Longer waits mean crews get paid for sitting there; jets are not making money in the air. The whole idea is "an incredibly inefficient process".

WestJet aims for half-hour turnarounds. It aims to connect no more "than six or seven airplanes at a time". Its newer Boeing aircraft are far more fuel-efficient. The older jets cost $1,000 an hour to maintain. The modern ones cost only $100. By year-end, said Beddoe, the airline will have 44 aircraft, 25 of them new planes.

Beddoe thinks that 75 per cent of WestJet seats will be sold via the Internet within two years. That allows passengers to make their own plans, link up with their preferred connections.

This change spells doom for historic networks, such as the Star Alliance to which Air Canada belongs. Such alliances, he said, "are simply a way to charge you an excess fare."

The success continues for WestJet. Even as Beddoe spoke yesterday, the airline was releasing traffic figures for March. WestJet said its revenue-passenger miles (RPMs) were up almost 50 per cent compared to a year ago. RPMs measure the number of passengers multiplied by the average length of a flight."






What's another word for thesaurus?
 
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yyz717
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:31 pm

Nothing succeeds like success.

It will be nice to see WJ dwarf AC one day in the domestic skies.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:37 pm

Clive has done well for himself. He's been a tremendous success. However, he is very cocky, and I hope it doesn't kick him where it hurts sooner or later. We will have to see how Air Canada emerges out of bankruptcy. I am predicting a very strong airline in the new Air Canada Lite.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
CRJ 900
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RE: Air Canada Questions

Thu Apr 10, 2003 1:58 pm

One thing that Clive forgets to mention, the only people at WJ who can plop down 266,000$ on a new home are those who were there from the very beginning. Anything else is pure malarky on his part. On those wages, even with profit sharing you have to have been there from the start with some pretty nice stocks to see that kinda cash. Yes Clive is very smug and it could come back to bite him some day, not to mention the market is cyclical, who's to say that in five years from now, business class won't be a popular thing again? Will Mr. Beddoe give in? or will he stick to his VFR model. Everybody has their day and who says that WJ won't see hard times some day down the road. Never say never is what I believe.
 
rindt
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Thu Apr 10, 2003 2:10 pm

But I think the moral of the story is : stick to doing what you're good at. WestJet has found their niche, and has stuck by it ever since. Air Canada on the other hand, has fallen far off its own game plan by doing everything in its power to undermine WestJet (and CP at the time) at ALL costs. The CP take-over can only be blamed for so much before you realize that had AC stuck to what made it money over the long-run, they wouldn't be in this shit mess. AC is in the midst of a 52-card pick-up, and it's their own damn fault.

-Rob

What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
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RE: Air Canada Questions

Thu Apr 10, 2003 2:56 pm

Rindt i agree with you on that.
 
CX829
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Thu Apr 10, 2003 4:42 pm

I share the same thoughts as Captaingomes. Clive Beddoe is too arrogant to my likings and we all know that there's no "eternity" in the airline industry. WJA employees are being paid peanuts compared to the avg in the Cdn markets. I know a few who takes pride in their job at WJA but at the same time I do know a lot who have decided enough is enough under his regime / pathetic payscales.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Thu Apr 10, 2003 6:59 pm

he is very cocky

Yes, but more power to him! It's nice to see a very successful Canadian airline at long last given the arrogance & dominance of AC for so long. If any airline exec can be cocky now, it's Clive.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
buckfifty
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Thu Apr 10, 2003 7:40 pm

I just wonder, if all the majors fall out of the sky, who's going to fly international?

The low fare formula, one must admit, is great for domestic services, flying into secondary airports with short turnarounds, pay for your own cheap food, etc. But long haul is a different story, and this formula as it stands cannot work without breaking the rules regarding duty hours, nor flying heavy aircraft into airports which cannot handle them.
 
CRJ 900
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:13 am

What a paying passenger is willing to accept on a domestic flight is one thing, but his model would not work on an long haul scale. There is no way WJA could jump to international. Then he would have to provide service similar to AC for overseas. I'm not defending AC, considering that I come from CP, yes AC is very arrogant but that in part is due to Milton, but no one has the right to be a smug as CLive is. It's only a matter of time, be it 5mos or 5 years before we're tellin Clive "i told ya so"....MR.Beddoe. if you're out there keep your attitude in check...it makes you look foolish. Yes, I also have to agree that I've had a few friends go there and as soon as an opportunity presented itself they were gone. They had enough of the childish antics of the FAs and the over all juvenile behavior at the company. I guess the old adage "you get what you pay for applies here". At least at Zip there's no games and jokes or lets see which side of the airplane can pass a role of TP faster.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:28 am

What a paying passenger is willing to accept on a domestic flight is one thing, but his model would not work on an long haul scale.

WJ is already flying YYZ-YVR. Jetsgo, Jet Blue & Southwest also operate transcons. This suggests that the LCC concept can be extended to 5+ hour flights.

If WJ can be successful on YYZ-YVR, it could easily be successful on YYZ-LHR/LGW which is only 2 hours longer (given the right aircraft of course).



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
donder10
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:40 am

Micheal O'Leary makes Beddoe look modest!But still,both have a right to be arrogant at this point in time as their models are growing and highly successful at a time of an industry recession!
 
chock head
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:44 am

I do not exactly see how Clive is being overly cocky here. After many years of AC trying to drive his company out of business he is simply stating what a whole bunch of other people have said, the Air Canada business model does not work.

Some of the comments being made above above sure sound like sour grapes. Sure the person who put 286 000 on a new house may have been there from the beginning but the message is that if you max out your stocks in 7 years you can be able to do the same thing. Yeah that really sucks.

I also like the comment about WestJet paying "peanuts" compared to the average in the Canadian markets. Average what? Average of an airline that has gone bankrupt? That business model does not work. Is a check in agent at an airport worth 50 k a year? I don't think so. The AC union types do. People must really hate to work there, thats why according to their annual report they got 49000 applications last year. Sounds like a crappy place to work to me.

I love the comment that at least at Zip there are no games or jokes. No PAX either. People are voting with their $ which airline they want to fly. A miserable flight filled with attitude right from the get go or a flight where everyone from the check in agent to the FA and pilot try to inject some fun into the flight. This formula sucks so bad that it will never work...oh wait a minute, someone better tell Southwest that.

Sure the formula may not work on overseas flights, that is the whole point . They are not trying to be all things to all people.

The sour grapes brigade, the dinosoars of bygone eras, and the people who hold Air Canada as a sacred cow should all wake up and realize there is a new way of doing business.

If you are going to hate anything...Hate the game, not the player.
 
Dash8King
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:44 am

I know many who enjoy the " childish antics" it is a lot better than an F/A who acts like its a chore to give you a drink and gives out one big sigh as if they are doing you a favour. Westjet's F/A's are very upbeat and people appreciate that.
 
spyderz
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:48 am

Ya, but could a Westjet-like carrier be successful flying YVR-HKG? While a true low-fare airline wouldn't be able to fly the long international routes, a charter carrier like Transat or HMY could fill that void for lower fare international travel because of the lower cost structure compared to Air Canada. What we see though is relative success by Transat on the major international routes to like London or Franfurt, indicating that while some passengers demand low fares, many others will pay extra to fly an airline providing better service and therefore possibly making us believe that international routes wouldn't fly with the low-cost model. Yes WJ, SouthWest, Jetsgo, and JetBlue fly transcon routes, but they are demanded less since "full-service" carriers provide a greater percentage of flights on the trans-con routes. Air Canada has like 14 daily flights between YVR-YYZ, while WJ and JetsGo have 4 flights. Compare this to a route like YVR-YEG which is entirely low-cost, and there is a negative relationship between travel distance and demand for no-frills service. This leads me to believe that there will always be demand for the full-service model, even if its for flights over say 3 hours. Also, who cares if Clive is cocky, the entire airline industry is. Name one airline that isn't arrogant, since they're not that many.
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:13 am

This Clive Beddoe, any relation to Fido Beddoe, the pugilist with the orangutan? If there is, I wouldn't bet on Air Canada's chances.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
Marcus
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:19 am

Wardair, he reminded listeners, was a great airline. But its food was costing $96 per passenger.
******************

What did he mean by this?..........
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
Noise
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:19 am

So now they wanna start montreal-halifax eh? Nice!
 
captaingomes
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:30 am

Wardair is widely considered one of the airlines with the best service ever. People to this day still talk about Wardair's service, and they were bought out in 1992 I believe. However, this service of course had a price, and according to Beddoe, that price was $96 per person. I have a hard time believing it was that high. I've always heard an average passenger meal costs an airline roughly $10 per person.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
BOEING747-700
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 11:15 am

Wardair did have the best service. I had my first ever 747 Flight with them. The F/As where super nice, the Pilots were very friendly and the entire flight experience was well worth it. I can remember getting my food on real china and having some of the best airline food ever from them. I wish they were still around today, they would be my first choice in Aviation to fly with here in Canada!!
 
Dash8King
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:16 pm

It was 88 or 89 that they were bought out according to his book Captain.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:32 pm

Thanks Dash8! I was just using my poor memory from something I had read recently. I guess I was wrong.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Dash8King
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 1:06 pm

You should read his book it is really good Captain.

PS Anyone else watching Lakers and Kings?
GO KINGS!!!!
 
buckfifty
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 3:16 pm


WJ is already flying YYZ-YVR. Jetsgo, Jet Blue & Southwest also operate transcons. This suggests that the LCC concept can be extended to 5+ hour flights.

If WJ can be successful on YYZ-YVR, it could easily be successful on YYZ-LHR/LGW which is only 2 hours longer (given the right aircraft of course).


Hmmm...I'm not so sure. Anything longer than eight hours, you're looking at extra crews. Not to mention flying to places with limited slot availability (i.e. European/Asian international airports) may mean longer turnaround times. Parking fees, landing fees on top of that, and host of other support services, make it somewhat daunting, IMO. And don't forget the fleet commonality principle that WJ enjoys right now. That's why in these last twenty odd years, you haven't seen Southwest go international. Just not their cup of tea.

If for example WestJet does fly LGW, I don't think their margins are going to be any better than the ones AC enjoyed.

If AC does go by the wayside, I'm sure someone will pick up the slack in the interim. However, it's gonna cost extra for overseas travel, unless competition picks up again.

Nevermind that. A Westjet monopoly in Canada...who would have reckoned...
 
superdawg
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:37 pm

What Clive doesn't mention is that Westjet's original model based on Short Haul flights is now hurting. Not because of bad business practise but because of our idiotic government and all the fees they charge. This is why Westjet has cut many short haul routes in frequency and have begun focusing on longer routes where all the government fees aren't as big of percentage on the total airfare (it's all perception to the customer). This is also why WJ's RPM's have increased so much without profits actually matching.

So while our government takes $262 Million in forms of Airport taxes (not the taxes charged to Airlines which is another story) which increase Airport fees, and doesn't put any of the money back into the air transport system we will continue to see Canadian airlines having some sort of problems. This is just one example of our flawed system.

 
donder10
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 11:30 pm

What is the governmen't fetish with raising airport fees and associated taxes all the time?Needless to say,they will not let their results of their taxes occur when AC's declares it will to liquidate.How much of a political voice does WJ have working for it?
 
CRJ 900
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 11:36 pm

You will not get any arguement from me that CSAs should be getting paid 50K because they certainly shouldn't. With respect to LCC model working Longhaul, sorry but it won't. YVR-YYZ is alot different YYZ-LHR or YYZ -HKG, pop and cookies won't cut it there my friend. Should you have granny grouch serving you? No you shouldn't have to pay for that either. Oh ya, Ive flown SWA many times and only once did the FAs on board tell jokes. Otherwise they acted like any other adults...maybe thats why SWA has more business travellers than WJA. Don't forget that WJA isn't really catering to the business market, mostly leisure travellers.Further more, the longer those FAs and pilots have been around and as Clive and his team start to take advantage the employees, they too will get tired and look for some sort of representation. It's already been attempted(FAs)( i have a friend who's been there from pretty much the start) and Clive was able to stop it this time, but who says he'll be able to down the road. The comment on ZIP, true....i dunno why they started that stupid thing up anyways. For the most part people who fly AC travel on the full fare portion or Tango, They should have spun off that divison(tango) instead of starting ZIP. Finally and once again, i'm not defending AC. I do disagree that WJA can go global, it would cost them to much, they couldnt or should i say wouldnt want to have to provide the service required and finally they would be breaking their model. They will have to be more like Jetblue or the proposed Song now to compete in the LCC marketplace, short haul only is gonna get them no where so it's good to see that they've realized this but, ALREADY that is a change in their model so who's to say Clive won't change it further and eventually become more akin to Tango and from there who knows.....more like CP or AC? He's broken his model already so why not even further?
 
Dash8King
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Fri Apr 11, 2003 11:47 pm

You must know some pretty dry people if they don't like to joke around.
 
AirCanadaMan
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 12:14 am

96$ a meal is a fair assesment of Wardairs meals, easily.
Served on Royal Dalton China (every dish, cup and saucer) and some nice silverware. (Dont forget 96$ would cover dishwashing, transportation, and of course the replacement of the broken dish, which probably was about one a flight) The meal Max originally chose was his favorite, steak, a big one, with all the trimmings. Presented gloriously, and was appealing both in taste and looks. He started serving them from his first (I think, although it may have been earlier on the props) 721 flight from YEG over to Europe right up until the end of his airline. I imagine today he would have to offer some beef and meat substitues.

I kinda wish the guy would come back up to Yellowknife, I haven't seen him in over 3 years. But next time I see him, I'll ask to be sure.  Big thumbs up
 
Guest

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 12:28 am

"Wardair is widely considered one of the airlines with the best service ever. People to this day still talk about Wardair's service, and they were bought out in 1992 I believe. However, this service of course had a price, and according to Beddoe, that price was $96 per person. I have a hard time believing it was that high. I've always heard an average passenger meal costs an airline roughly $10 per person."



At the risk of going on with my "endless memories of the past", here I go!

Actually, that figure is pretty close to the mark. My sister worked for Wardair for 15 years (FA and later head office). CAD$96.00 per pax was not exclusively food. Wardair spent a fortune on French and Italian imported wines and offered both Dom Perignon and Moet et Chandon champagnes to its pax. Also, there was the famous Wardair "Dessert Trolley" that was rolled out into the cabins after dinner. Talk about a selection of delectable goodies!
In 1986, Wardair initiated their business class service aboard their A310
and B-747-100 aircraft. The service offered was absolutely out of this world, and many to this day who flew WD Biz class still rank it higher than many biz and first class services offered today. And let's not forget the money Max
Ward spent on the beautiful Wardair Royal Doulton English bone china pieces for both Business Class and regular (if you could call it that!) Wardair Class.

Incidentally, Wardair was the recipient of the IATA International Service Award
for 1984, 1986 and 1987. They beat out such worthy competitors such as
the then Swissair, Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific. As I have said before in my endless rants of the past, this was no small feat for a small
Canadian quasi charter carrier with 7-14 aircraft.

When CAI purchased WD in 1988, Canadi>n (and yes, I use the ">" symbol, so shoot me) employees discovered over CAD$1 million worth of unused WD china and sterling silver pieces for Business Class stored in the commissary centre at the YYZ hangar facility.

I could go on and on about the legendary and world famous Wardair, but I digress. Would Wardair have survived today with the same level of service?
Absolutely not. No way. But from 1962 to 1988, this carrier truly was in a
league of its own.

And if you have a chance, and are interested, I agree with those above who recommend "The Max Ward Story", also titled "The Wardair Story". It makes for quite a compelling read.
 
Marcus
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 12:28 am

Wow........$96 for a meal and all the logistics behind it......that's more than the price of some roundtrip flights!

Still......by what people have posted it sounds like it was the airline to beat in terms of service.
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
captaingomes
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 12:53 am

I guess I will have to accept the $96 cost of serving passenger meals on Wardair! I didn't think it was possible, but thanks for the clarifications.

Dash8King, I have never travelled on WestJet, so I can't speak from experience. However, I do know people who travel for their first time on WestJet and they come back impressed with the friendliness, and the jokes. But when they travel again on WestJet and they realize it's the same jokes over and over again, they start to find it much too silly. I think a good balance would be to encourage some joking around, rather than have a comedy script that seems to be virtually the same on every flight. Factor in that many trips on WestJet involve multiple legs, and I'm sure at the end of the day you'll want to get up from your seat and yell "SHUT UP!!!!!! ENOUGH OF THIS CRAP!!!!"  Big grin

But I don't know if my above statement is accurate, never having flown on WestJet, maybe others can give their impressions regarding their service.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Guest

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 1:08 am

I have heard nothing but complaints from both friends, clients and FA pals at TS and SV who position on WJ about the on-board comedy show performed by the crews. It would appear it is true that the first time it is encountered, pax do find it amusing; second and third times, they all agree it is very much annoying and childish. One SV FA told me recently she and her crew positioned on WJ last week, and they all wanted to virtually strangle the
cabin crew, who could not comprehend the fact it was a late night flight, and perhaps pax were tired and wanted to sleep. The cabin lights were left on at full blast, and the WJ crew were on the p.a non-stop with the songs and the jokes, plus running up and down the aisles, trying to engage the pax in a game of "I Spy". Dear God, I if I were on-board, I would have shoved their faces into the beverage trolleys.
 
chock head
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 2:10 am

On that last WestJet FA story I call "Bullshit"

Perhaps the Pax were tired? Or was it a bunch of grump FA from charter airlines who had just flown all day and were looking for something to bitch about. I have never seen the cabin lights left on "full blast" for a late evening flight. I have not seen a game of I spy or passing the TP in a long time either. A lot of that went out with 911.

If the alleged friends of friends who know someone, work with someone or have heard about WestJet flights have bad things to say, that is there perogative, whether it is true or they are just bitching to bitch. The simple fact is they must be doing something right.

WestJet does in fact get a lot of business travel. You would be surprised at how many business men actually appreciate an FA who is friendly and smiling rather than a sour me first FA who does not give a shit about customer service.
 
chock head
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 3:42 am

While I personally subscribe to the theory that arguing over an internet message board is like winning in the Special Olympics, I think that you are getting your panties in way too much of a bunch.

I am sorry if I insulted the undeniably high integrity of your FA friends who would never exaggerate for the sake of a story. I would never catergorize all FA as bitches either, but having seen a lot of them at the end of their duty day I am afraid that I am probably fairly correct in my assessment.

Calling me an asshole is probably uncalled for but whatever, I have been called worse by tired old queens who love bitching about anything.
 
Guest

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 6:55 am

"Calling me an asshole is probably uncalled for but whatever, I have been called worse by tired old queens who love bitching about anything."

Well, I've been called a lot o' thangs, but a "Tired old Queen!" LOL!
Er, buddy, trust me on this, I may be many things, but I am most definitely NOT a fembod Queen! LOL!

Pardon my foul lingo, but budboy, when you start a reply to a posting of mine with the word "bullshit", I kinda get my Irish knickers in a bit of a twist. I give as good as I get.
 
CRJ 900
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RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 7:19 am

U know , lets keep it to the original topic. It was wrong of me to say things about WJA's Fas, let's be honest here, what do I care anyways...I never have to travel on them or work with them so bonus for me(and them) i guess. However I do know the director of inflight and she's a very nice girl. But on the topic of Clive, a friend of mine just told me how she came back from TO and Clive was onboard the aircraft and was thanking everyone for flying with Westjet and how did they like the new leather seats? I guess the airplane had leather or something...so does the RJ i fly. Anyways, she said to me this...."i thought he was supposed to be a nice guy. He was so phony it was sickening. It wasn't even genuine. People would try and talk to him and he was quite patronizing, strutting around like a silly peacock". "God", she said ," i thought he was Canadian but I guess not, he has quite the accent and it made him sound like even more of a snob, i can understand why people have said he comes off like he's something special". She travels with WJA frequently and is currently reconsidering the alternative.
 
chock head
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue May 07, 2002 1:11 pm

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 7:38 am

Canadi>nBoy

LOL, no hard feelings I hope.
 
Dash8King
Posts: 2658
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 11:05 am

First of all about him seeming cocky and arrogant in the article what do you expect? Do you want him to shed a tear for them? Start a "save Air Canada foundation"? I am surprised that he could not put on a big enough show on the WJ flight but oh well he is a millionaire and a snob lots of times those two go together. How many successful entrepreneurs aren't cocky?

If there are so many horror stories about working for WJ than why was it that on the day AC released their 4th Quarter results there were over 5000 applications sent into WJ from AC alone? Yes their jokes are corny, people do not fly them for the stand up routine, they fly them for the upbeat attitude and for the cheap price.
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 12:23 pm

Whoa Dash8, easy!  Smile

Clive, like many other entrepreneurs at times seems cocky. (I'm glad the term I used first in this thread seemed to stick.) He is very successful and has done a lot for innovation in aviation in Canada, that's for sure. But his comments that I have seen many times in articles and interviews go beyond the smug remarks that many CEO's make. I'm not necessarily against his attitude, what he's doing is selling is company to the media, and getting exposure. He's also using the media as much as possible to send his messages across.

It's true, it can't be that bad a place to work, because most people I've heard love it there. And yes, they get a lot of applications, so they are doing something right. I have lots of respect for Westjet and it's staff.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
CRJ 900
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 4:41 am

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 2:33 pm

Most of the unemployed airline people do like Clive( potential employer). As for Clive's claim to 5000 apps from AC employees....BS KID (Dash8king) ! I know the Director of Inflight at WJA, that's simply NOT true, she told me herself.
 
Dash8King
Posts: 2658
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 4:15 pm

I have never read an article in Canadian Business (magazine) where the CEO does not come off as Cocky. Westjet is going to use all the free advertising it can get and if that means that Clive has to throw a few jabs here and there then so be it. I have seen many articles with Interviews on Clive lately and he is milking it much as he can and who can blame him? As for the 5000 applications both you and I don't really know, I repeated what he has said many times and you have repeated what you have heard we will have to leave it at that. You say you have talked to former employee's who did not like working for them and I have talked to employee's who do, not everyone will like working for them just like not everyone enjoy's flying WJ and that's the same for every single company.
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 4:25 pm

I have heard stories of the onboard entertainment on WJ, and for myself, that is a good reason to avoid them. All I want is to get from point A to point B without being bothered by jokes, games, or other stupidities. Can you imagine havin to fly them regularly? I'd probably snap. Just my two cents worth, I haven't flown them and perhaps never will.
 
cmm340
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2001 12:02 pm

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 5:48 pm

hmm interesting!!
just a footnote here.
A collegue positioned on Westjet not so long ago(with the rest of his crew), and the f/a proceeded to brief the overwing pax(himself included) with a barbie doll and a childish voice. When she was asked not to talk to us in such a patronizing baby voice, she headed off to the front to talk to the IFD. As the IFD commenced her Jerry Seinfeld version of the safety demo, she got to the point where normally you would say...."in the event of an emergency........."(you all know what goes there)
She proceeds to announce :"In the event of an emergency do not look to the westjet crew as there is a far more experienced non-westjet crew sitting at the overwing exits who will be more than happy to help you"...click... and of safety demo.

My question is: If safety is taken so lightly and jokingly by the crew, why should the pax take it seriously?
Light-hearted fun is cool, safety should be paramount, but no customer should ever be treated so unprofessionally.
They have a great business plan, they've found their niche, I just hope their joking attitude on of all things safety, doesn't come back and bite them in the ass!
 
dripstick
Posts: 2320
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 9:43 am

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sat Apr 12, 2003 9:31 pm

Just a quick note here.

Westjet's sense of humour is enjoyed by a great many people, but is not for everyone. I myself enjoyed it and it serves to break the ice that normally exists on other airlines.

I noticed that on the shorter routes, which are traditionally travelled by leisure passengers, there was alot more banter by the crew. When I was on the YYC-YYZ flight, this was noticeably deminished and scaled back. I'm guessing due to the large number of business passengers onboard with their heads buried in thier lap-tops.

I'm sure when an emergency occurs you'll receive the same level of assistance as the other airlines. It would be silly to expect otherwise.

Dripstick



[Edited 2003-04-12 14:33:46]
What's another word for thesaurus?
 
palebird
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:41 pm

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sun Apr 13, 2003 1:33 am

Not knocking Westjet but they do seem to receive preferential treatment from the press. I know of three inflight engine failures in the last year or so and that is out of Kelowna. These are major items(safety) and someday this is going to bite hard. They are not as squeaky clean as everyone seems to think. I do not know what their engine maintenance policy is but I have heard from several sources that the cheaper the better. That only works to a certain point and I know because I have been there. Hope their luck holds.
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sun Apr 13, 2003 1:49 am

You never really hear of engine failures reaching the media. I would be surprised if the engine failure rate at WJ is worse than the average for airlines in North America.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
palebird
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:41 pm

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sun Apr 13, 2003 4:45 am

The reason you rarely hear of engine failures is that the tier one airlines(flag carriers, etc) rarely have them as they spend lots of money on maintenance and also tend to run newer equipment.It makes sense in the long term. Tier two and three airlines have them much more often but are rarely heard from because nobody really gives a damn. How do I know? Because I ran engine overhaul/repair for an airline for a number of years. And an airline does not want the press to get hold of this information if it can help it. Engines on the 737-200 are generally getting very tired.And these engines are never overhauled, only repaired. To overhaul them would be prohibitively expensive.
 
dripstick
Posts: 2320
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 9:43 am

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Sun Apr 13, 2003 5:57 am

BTW - Air Canada operates more B732's than Westjet and generally Westjet's are newer models.

Dripstick
What's another word for thesaurus?
 
Guest

RE: Beddoe's Comments On Air Canada

Tue Apr 15, 2003 1:31 am

Chock head wrote:

"Canadi>nBoy, LOL, no hard feelings I hope."

No hard feelings at all. And please accept my profuse apology in regards to
the potty mouth word I used.


Cmm 340 wrote:

"A collegue positioned on Westjet not so long ago(with the rest of his crew), and the f/a proceeded to brief the overwing pax(himself included) with a barbie doll and a childish voice. When she was asked not to talk to us in such a patronizing baby voice, she headed off to the front to talk to the IFD. As the IFD commenced her Jerry Seinfeld version of the safety demo, she got to the point where normally you would say...."in the event of an emergency........."(you all know what goes there)
She proceeds to announce :"In the event of an emergency do not look to the westjet crew as there is a far more experienced non-westjet crew sitting at the overwing exits who will be more than happy to help you"...click... and of safety demo."

Now THIS is where the proverbial line is drawn. It's one thing to joke with pax during boarding, in-flight, etc., but never EVER should cabin crew joke during
the flight safety briefing/video/demo. Never. One may argue that the pax would be more attentive to a comical demo/briefing; I beg to differ. In my opinion (nad many other FA's and ex-FA's), the pax will not ingest or retain the
significance or vital information should an actual emergency result. WD and WG crews were severely reprimanded for any jokes played on other FA's
(active carbon cartridge in the demo lofe vest; pictures pasted on the inside of aircraft safety feature cards) and rightfully so. I am no prude, and I have an overly active, raunchy sense of humour, but there is a TIME and a PLACE,
and it is most certainly NOT during a briefing/demo. If that Barbie/Baby-doll
FA tried that routine with me during an over-wing exit briefing, oh DAMN would my Irish temper "fly".

And as for that WJ IFD she-thing and that subsequent horrific announcement, if this is true, then the bitch should be slapped and hauled off the line and suspended until she learns what is APPROPRIATE behaviour on-board an aircraft. Keep your beefs and opinions of positioning crews OFF the bloody P.A and OFF the aircraft, sweetums. That is appalling, disgusting, and above all UN-PROFFESSIONAL.

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