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Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 1:21 am

Found this today...

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2003/2003-04-14-song.htm

Should be interesting
 
KROC
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 1:28 am

So they are ripping off Southwest and jetBlue. Way to go song!  Yeah sure
 
B747-437B
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 1:38 am

The proof will be in the pudding. If Song delivers the CASM it is promising, then it will be a sure winner. If they can't, then it will be another also-ran. I used to be a lot more optimistic until I started reading some of Selvaggio's marketing bullshit lately.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
FrequentFlyKid
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 1:46 am

KROC - I don't understand you apparent resentment. Maybe I am overlooking the sarcasm, but competition is a good thing. A very good thing.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 5:29 am

Song isn't about competition, it's about destroying competition. If high-quality low fare carriers weren't eating Delta's lunch, Song wouldn't exist. Pax would pay higher fares, even to low-yield Florida. If anything happened to JetBlue, you can be sure those ugly lime-green planes would be painted back into Deltaflot colors so fast it would make your head spin.

Fortunately, JetBlue is extremely well managed and has earned strong passenger loyalty. If anything, Song might take a few points of market share, and both will probably make money at somewhat smaller size. Listening to Selvaggio hype fun is like listening to Dilbert's pointy-haired boss hype fun, though. It's fake and only being done because they're forced to.

Given JetBlue's better-than-Song cost structure, they could (and probably will) match Song's few additional gimmicks with ease.

Support the reformers. Go JetBlue!

Jim

Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
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yyz717
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 5:32 am

If Song delivers the CASM it is promising

I think that's why they're using the 752. With high loads, the CASM should be good. Obviously, the financials with Delta Express using the fully depreciated but smaller 732's did not work out.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 5:57 am

I still feel that the 752's are too large for some of those routes on a year-round basis. Personally, I think 738's that were once used by Delta Shuttle would have been a better idea. 160 seats is a lot easier to fill than 199 on a consistent basis. Just my 2 cents...but there's no way those flights will go out full everyday...not a chance. Nifty idea and all, but I give Song six months, tops.


Steve in NOLA
 
scottysair
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 6:54 am

I think this is very best idea for reduce from B752 to B738 on the Song. I wondering that might to take best choice for used with Song. I think that should be kept on the B757-200 aircraft on the those route. Well, talk ya later!
 
chepos
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:35 am

They are so into the women being our target customer gimmick I'm surprised they didn't follow Skymarks (Japan) idea of a women only cabin.
Chepos
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
brett80211
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:16 am

I cant wait to fly Song....-Brett
 
Marcus
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:46 am

OK wait a minute..........according to the article Song is more expensive than Jetblue, the seats are narrower than Jetblue, you can take less bagagge than Jetblue, the cocktails are more expensive and the seat pitch is less than Jetblue.

Am I missing something here?

****************************************
How Song, JetBlue compare

Song
JetBlue

Lowest round-trip fare{1}
$375
$265

Domestic fare range one way
$79 to $299
$49 to $299

Free checked baggage allowance
2 up to 50 lbs. each
3 up to 70 lbs. each{2}

Seat spacing (back of seat to back of seat)
33 in.
32 in.

Seat width
17 in.
18.5 in.

TV channels
24{3}
24

Cocktail prices
$5
$4
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
Kohflot
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:25 am

DCA-ROCguy,

I normally agree with a lot of what you say, but I have to take strong exception to your take on Song...

Delta has recognized that the industry is changing and is trying to do what is expected of any company in a capitalist economy - compete. It's odd that you continue to attack Delta for starting Song in the interest of competition because it seems that it's competition that you admire.. does it always have to be a David vs. Goliath situation?

You posted a doom-and-gloom prediction of what would happen if jetBlue didn't exist (that Delta mainline would swoop back in and raise fares). I think you, I, AND Delta all know that low-fare carriers are here to stay.. they may not all be orange, blue, or carry tangy ATC names, but things have obviously changed in a way that (for most cities) doesn't threaten the notion of reasonably priced air travel. If jetBlue failed, another one would start.. Why? Because people with lots of money have realized that the only way to reliably make more money in this industry is to a) provide a good product for a very reasonable price and b) control costs in order to maintain that reasonable price. Southwest, jetBlue, and AirTran have all proven that the formula works - why can't Delta change with the times to compete as well?

Corporate history is filled with stories of companies that significantly changed the way they do business as a response to market forces.. why can't Delta?
Ask why..
 
Pilot1113
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:39 am

>>Southwest, jetBlue, and AirTran have all proven that the formula works - why can't Delta change with the times to compete as well?<<

Delta isn't competing, so much as trying to stifle the competition. DCA-ROCguy is right. Once JetBlue, Southwest, and/or AirTran are out of picture, just how long do you think it will be before Song quietly exits the picture and those 757s are painted back in Delta colors and DAL is back to 1500+ for a round-trip ticket? Delta is not innovated, to the contrary. They can't think up an original idea, so they have abolish the competition.

Look how quickly the internet innovation cooled off when Microsoft was the only game in town. Netscape was a far superior product, but Microsoft gave away their browser, built it into the OS, and practically paid people to download their browser. Now, I'm stuck using a browser than can *maybe* launch an animated gif without crashing. Song is the same thing.

Don't get me wrong, if Song was a brand-new *INDEPENDENT* company I would be wishing them the best of luck. The only purpose for Song is a huge club for Delta to slam their competition out of the park so they can be the only game in town. If I were in the DOJ, I would take a long and hard look at Song. This is bordering on the verge of anticompetitive practices and monopolistic practices.

If Delta wanted to compete more effectively, they should focus on improving their mainline product. They don't and thus, they won't.

- Neil Harrison

 
sllevin
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:00 am

I actually have an entirely different take. I think Delta's reformation as a limited service, low fare carrier is likely the beginning of the end of "mainline" service as we know it.

Specifically, start looking for airlines to abandon any market that can't handle at least a 737. RJs? Forget about it -- there simply won't be much of a market for it -- the operating costs of the RJs are too high.

In short, people will only operate what can be flown cheap -- and that won't be connecting Durango, Colorado to Wichita, Kansas.

And customer loyalty will drop to near zero -- typical for a pure commondity. People will have a preference, but they'll change to save 50 cents.

Steve
 
Kohflot
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:01 am

Again, any argument that relies on the demise of low-fare carriers and a mass return to high fares is only an emotional one.. because, again, if this group of successful low-fare carriers were to fail, there would be more to replace them. The market has changed.. people expect lower fares than they've historically paid. Quite simply, Delta has decided to market Song as their response to those changes.

What exactly is Song doing that's anticompetitive? Do you REALLY think that low-cost carriers are going to pull a Dodo bird because Delta has decided to steer in this direction?

Don't get me wrong, if Song was a brand-new *INDEPENDENT* company I would be wishing them the best of luck.

Which seems to get to the heart of the issue here.. and I'll ask the question again, why can't Delta compete? It's odd.. instead of being cheered as a major airline taking the lead to keep its planes flying, its employees employed, and its stock worth something, Delta is being ridiculed for being 'anticompetitive'...
Ask why..
 
searpqx
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:04 am

I think you're missing the point. LCCs are here to stay. I don't argue that if there were no market forces making them change, DL, UA, AA et al would continue down the path that they've been navigating since deregulation. But (as Jim is the first to point out) the market has fundamentally changed, and DL has recognized it. While Leo may fantasize about driving Jet Blue out of business, he and the rest of the folks at DL are realistic enough to realize that even if B6 goes way, there will be an Air Purple, or a JFK 'r Us or a (insert catchy name here) airline created to take their place. So while the fantasy goal may be to force B6 out, the actual (and perhaps attainable) goal is simply to find a new way to compete, and hopefully survive.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
jhooper
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:05 am

Where can I read the "Selvaggio's marketing bullshit?"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Noteworthy quotes from the article:

All-coach Song will match Southwest's maximum fare and make funny flight announcements.

Now THAT'S funny! Let's copy Southwest by making funny announcements!

You can't pick up a press release without Song telling you how cool and hip they are.

--Jetblue Spokesperson

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



(By the way, The Microsoft case(s) were about much more than the browser)

[Edited 2003-04-15 04:14:32]
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 12:08 pm

Delta has recognized that the industry is changing and is trying to do what is expected of any company in a capitalist economy - compete. It's odd that you continue to attack Delta for starting Song in the interest of competition because it seems that it's competition that you admire.. does it always have to be a David vs. Goliath situation?

You're right, Kohflot, it is financially rational for Delta to start Song. But I'm not convinced it's about "compeition" in the sense of trying to keep low fares available in and of themselves.

The network carriers have a history of brutality to protect their economic structures, a recent history that I'm not willing to forget just yet. Southwest is almost certainly beyond the reach of predatory attacks by now, but I'm not convinced that JetBlue or AirTran are yet. I could well be wrong, but figure it's better to risk error on the side of history for now.

people with lots of money have realized that the only way to reliably make more money in this industry is to a) provide a good product for a very reasonable price and b) control costs in order to maintain that reasonable price. Southwest, jetBlue, and AirTran have all proven that the formula works - why can't Delta change with the times to compete as well?

Remember that Delta still predominantly provides a different higher-cost network product. There will always be a certain amount of demand for the network product, which serves two vital needs the low-fares don't--international and small-city connections.

I figure the low-fares could carry between 60 and 70 percent of USA traffic. But for now they still have 20 percent, and that's small enough for the network carriers to make life miserable for them. Also, Song is geared only for large markets, and is aimed at carriers that bring low fares to medium and smaller markets.

Delta's 199-seat 757's can only serve the big markets that are a cash cow for carriers like JetBlue and AirTran. We won't be seeing Song from Rochester or Akron to MCO, but we do have AirTran with its 118-seat 717's flying those routes. We have an interest in seeing JetBlue and AirTran strong and healthy.

Corporate history is filled with stories of companies that significantly changed the way they do business as a response to market forces.. why can't Delta?

Delta is only changing *where they have to,* and are trying to prop up high fares wherever they still can. The network economic model will always be fundamentally in some tension with the low-fare model, so network carriers always represent a danger to carriers that limit the reach of that model.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 12:16 pm

Delta is only changing *where they have to,* and are trying to prop up high fares wherever they still can. The network economic model will always be fundamentally in some tension with the low-fare model, so network carriers always represent a danger to carriers that limit the reach of that model.

To further answer your point about the agreed-upon fundamental change in the industry, Kohflot, I remain concerned until the low-fares reach about 45 or 50 percent of the USA market. People are indeed demanding low fares to markets that can economically support them, which is the majority of volume in the USA.

Getting from here--an 80 network/ 20 LCC industry to a say 55 LCC/ 45 network industry--is still a road that seems dangerous to me. Again, I could be wrong, and you are right to point out that a lot of economic forces are lining up in favor of the low-fares. But there's nothing like a threatened vested interest that wants to protect its cash cow.

So I figure it's safer to keep piling on the network carriers for now, and pointing out the dangers they still present to the low-fares.

Jim

Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Pilot1113
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 12:41 pm

>>Which seems to get to the heart of the issue here.. and I'll ask the question again, why can't Delta compete?<<

If Delta really wanted to compete and make a better company, ol' Leo would reform mainline Delta from the bottom up. Song is not that reformation.

Making an entirely new company, while leaving the old one to wither, reeks of antitrust. Just look at Song, it all points to quashing their competition. How does it help mainline compete more effectively? It doesn't.

>>(By the way, The Microsoft case(s) were about much more than the browser)<<

I wasn't talking about the case -- I was talking about how Microsoft's tactics stifled innovation. Progress in the internet hasn't made nearly as much advances as when MS and Netscape were battling it out.

- Neil Harrison
 
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fanoftristars
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 1:07 pm

Since when does an A320 have an 18.5 seat width?

Northwest's A319s have 17.2" width

United's A320s have an 18" width
(According to SeatGuru.com)

So, if JetBlue has an 18.5" width, their isle would have to be 3 inches narrower than United's. (I can assure you they don't, I've flown jetblue 4 times and there's no way in hell I had that much room to work with)

Just pointing out that this writer didn't take the time to do their homework.

Most likely Song's measurements were between armrests, and jetblue's measurements were from centerline to centerline. The A320 does have a wider seat, but there's no way it's 1.5 inches wider. The cabin is only 7 inches wider than the 737 & 757.
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
acvitale
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:29 pm

I have to weigh in here....


I must agree that Song is purely reactionary. I also believe that Delta made another in a chain of critical mistakes. With Song and it's head to head attack against Jet Blue I think that we will soon see Jet Blue in ATL.

Further I believe that Delta will be the inevitable loser in the war.

How can that be when Delta had 500+ aircraft and billions compared to little ole Jet Blue and Air Tran..

It is simple... Delta's management is out of touch. These are the same baffoons that asked congress for a bailout while setting up a compensation package that was rediculous while bleeding money and had been warned it would backfire.

They are the same fools whom forget that JetBlue is more then just seatback video but, It includes customer service. (Something that a demoralized workforce generally fails at). Heck Song is a recipe for passenger abuse.

So paint some 757s butt ugly lime green and change the seats a little bit then add a gee whiz entertainment system and hope for success..

Delta is mediocre. It has slowly but surely alienated its elite flyers. It cannot match Jet Blue with product or Air Tran with price or either with service.

Delta management is greedy and short sighted.

I hate to say this but, Delta will go the way of United, Eastern, Pan Am and TWA. Remember the bigger they are the harder they fall. Delta used to be exceptional. That died with leadership 7.5 and has never been seen since.

My .02
ACVitale
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:51 pm

Getting from here--an 80 network/ 20 LCC industry to a say 55 LCC/ 45 network industry--is still a road that seems dangerous to me.

Problem is that if we get to that kind of ratio, the network carriers will not survive. If the LCC's have 55% of the market, the only routes left for the majors will be routes like Fargo to Bangor. Unfortunately, routes like that cannot sustain a network carrier. They need some of the high volume routes in order to survive.

However, the LCC's only want to skim off the high volume routes and not be bothered providing a full network of services.
 
trey
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:54 pm

You all (or most of you all) are completly nuts and have given little, if any, thought. I especially like the guy that said Delta is just doing this to put jetBlue out of business. So I guess Pepsi was intent on putting Diet Coke out of business when they launched Diet Pepsi? The answer of course is yes. Any fool that thinks any firm wants competiton is not very business smart and hence that is why they are posting their thoughts on this site as opposed to running a business. In an ideal climate, monoploies are every business's dream. In simpler terms, do you like to go out on sat. night and see 40 guys and 3 girls at the bar or the other way around? I think it is also important to remember that the major airlines were not just gifted their position in todays world, someone, somewhere worked and earned it. Delta did not get as big as it did by being lucky or recieving a hand out. Fact is they worked their ass off and grew, not without substantial risk.

If I started a new movie rental place and gave everyone 10 nights for $1 is it not BLockbuster's right, and frankly its obligaiton to shareholers, to at least try and match the same terms? No one in their right mind would say that isn't the case. Should Blockbuster just cater to their niche market and let me run all over them and take away half of thier business? Damn right Delta is launching Song as a direct result of jetBLue and others and good for them. Either way, the consumer wins. WHat are they supposed to do, sit around and slowly die off and go out of business? Then guess what, those lovely little
fares eveyrone loves on jetBLue will go up overnight. If you think they won't because 'jetBlue really cares about us, the customer,' then you need to go have a talk with someone that has more sense than the person that taught you anything in life. On an unreated note, I find it funny that the JB spokesman said that everytime you see Song literature they are telling you how hip they are- Seems to me JB markets themselves the very same way.
 
flashmeister
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:08 pm

If I were in the DOJ, I would take a long and hard look at Song. This is bordering on the verge of anticompetitive practices and monopolistic practices.

Whine whine whine. Please give some real justification for these remarks (other than your Microsoft browser 'example').

Support the reformers. Go JetBlue!

If you support the reformers, you should say Go JetBlue and Song. Song is absolutely a reform from the old Delta days. It's a new way of doing business. Granted, it's not systemwide-- you can't change a behemoth overnight. It will show us, however, positive ways that network carriers can adapt to live in the 'new world order'.

All of us here have been screaming that the network carriers have to change. Now, one is, and we're screaming about it more. Sort of like your kid sister apologizing, and you screaming back 'you didn't mean it'.

I hate to say this but, Delta will go the way of United, Eastern, Pan Am and TWA.

Garbage. Delta's better positioned than most to weather this storm, and to make such a dire prediction based on Song is a stretch, to say the least...
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:12 am

Song is just a desperate attempt by Delta to hold on to the market share, an attempt that will not be very successful. How can they think loyal JetBlue flyers will just switch over to Song on a whim? Not really. JetBlue has done nothing to alienate its client base since it started operations...but I can guarantee that people don't feel the same way about Delta. Delta is Delta...Song is Delta...Delta Express was Delta...it doesn't matter in the eyes of the consumer. Delta now stands for poor service mostly, and of course the alienation of elite flyers due to the RJ craze, and I think people will realize that this is nothing more than a desperation move on their part. Bad, bad idea if you ask me. A better idea would have been just to revert the DL Express flights to mainline flying at a cheaper rate. Just my opinion.

Fly JetBlue, the true trendsetter in the industy.


Steve in New Orleans
 
Pilot1113
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:43 am

>>Whine whine whine. Please give some real justification for these remarks (other than your Microsoft browser 'example').<<

Fine... here's one:

The major airlines attack the new-comer, and futher new-comers and put them out of business. They then set the bar high enough that it is impossible to start a new airline for more than 6 months for 1 year.

Again, if Leo was truely into reforming Delta, he would reform the ENITRE airline. Leo isn't interested in changing Delta -- he's interested in making sure the competition gets killed so that they can go back to charging 1500+ for a round-trip ticket. Song is just temporary, once it's seen that it's not needed where's the incentive for Delta to keep those expensive PTVs, food, and 199-seat 757s?

Pithy enough?

- Neil Harrison
 
DCA-ROCguy
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Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Interesting Article About Song

Wed Apr 16, 2003 1:12 am

Problem is that if we get to that kind of ratio, the network carriers will not survive. If the LCC's have 55% of the market, the only routes left for the majors will be routes like Fargo to Bangor. Unfortunately, routes like that cannot sustain a network carrier. They need some of the high volume routes in order to survive. However, the LCC's only want to skim off the high volume routes and not be bothered providing a full network of services.

The numbers don't support this argument. Small-city air travel won't account for 45 percent of air travel. Many routes have natural demand for network services, such as the percentage that wants first or business class service between major cities. This percentage is shrinking, but it won't go away.

Also, the fact that the economy is weakening the value of network FF programs does not make them worthless. In addition, international routes tend to have network carriers' highest yields, and LCC's can't fly them. It is up to the network carriers to determine what levels of service the routes can support, and offer capacity accordingly.

The old "unless we all fly Cartel carriers everywhere they'll all go extinct" scare-tactic line hasn't ever cut it, and doesn't cut it now. The fact that you're unhappy that Pensacola isn't drawing tons of low-fare service (and has AirTran, which a lot of medium-small markets don't) doesn't mean Pensacola will be without service.

Low-fare service requires some volume, and it's quite just that they earn it. All airlines can't be everything to everybody. Network carriers and regional affiliates will be around to provide economically viable services.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
sllevin
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Wed Apr 16, 2003 1:29 am

An interesting comparison is the auto insurance industry in California. California effectively ended "subsidization" a while back. So people meeting the "good driver" qualification can get cheap car insurance, but the pricing for people who didn't meet that criterion was effectively uncontrolled -- companies didn't even have to offer insurance to higher risk drivers.

End result -- less expensive insurance for good drivers, but virtually no coverage except limited and astronomically expensive coverage for everyone else.

Since the air travel world lacks a distinct advantage of car insurance (that California makes it a legal requirement) -- the 'expensive' portion of air travel will cease to exist. All that will remain will be routes that can be flown with a big mainline aircraft that can keep costs down.

I don't believe there's a chance in heck that small-toiwn service is going to survive.

I expect Delta to continue to move more and more aircraft to Song to provide a deep, dense service between metro areas, and slowly wither away "Delta." Even international routes, eventually.

If that drives jetBlue out of business, so be it. The reality is that when you make something a commodity, you leave yourself wide open to having the rug yanked out from under you from someone else willing to offer a similar service.

Steve
 
JBLUA320
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:21 am

Im not going to say anything about my opinion- I think you all know what it is by now.

But for the record, jetBlue's seat width is 18"

JBLU
 
UAL-Fan
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:15 am

My mind has suddenly been changed on this issue. I really could not understand why so many people felt this adventure Delta was taking was doomed before it even began. I really thought the idea had a chance until I learned that mainline pilots with their Union behind them were coming along for the ride.

Now I too feel it is doomed to failure. With that baggage along for the ride I just don't see how Song can compete in this market.

 
BeltwayBandit
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:49 am

Does anyone know how, if at all, this LCC-within-a-major-airline concept differs from the prior attempts (e.g. MetroJet)?

Do they have a separate labor force assigned to these 757s? Is Song operated out of a separate corporate entity, or is it just a division?

The devil is in the details. For example, when the planes go into the Delta shop, or they do engine swaps, will Song "pay" the full cost, or will Delta subsidize? Will they piggy back off Delta fuel hedges, pay for their own hedges, or pay spot prices?

In the 1980s, the Federal bank regulators created a "good bank" / "bad bank" concept where they would liquidate a bunch of banks, set up a strong survivor, and put the dreck in a single unit for liquidation. Seems to me like Delta is setting aside some rich routes for Song, and that can only come at the expense of the mainline Delta.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:03 am

I don't believe there's a chance in heck that small-town service is going to survive.

Small-town service will survive, because there's a market for it. It will, unfortunately, be less extensive than it is now. But the airline industry in its various players has risen to challenges in the past, and it will rise to this one. My suspicion is that rumors of the turboprop's death are greatly exaggerated. Many small-city routes aren't dense enough for 50-seat RJ's, and props are less expensive to operate. We may see a resurgence of the humble prop, especially workhorses like the DeHavilland Dash 8 and the Raytheon 1900.

Regional carriers fly them, not the network carriers themselves, so the distribution of mainline traffic is not an issue. Again, network carriers will have the highest-yield routes all to themselves--business class between major cities, and transoceanic routes. As their cost structures get below 10 cents, there will also be more mainline routes that they can economically fly. Which network carriers survive, and which regionals survive, will depend upon how they handle the challenges.

They've dealt with challenges in the past, and will deal with this one. It just took the awful vale of terrorism and economic weakness to move the process along.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
searpqx
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RE: Interesting Article About Song

Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:16 am

I second the above. Regionals such as Horizon, which carry as much O & D traffic as they do connecting traffic, will survive, if not thrive. The key for all carriers, from regional to network, will be to manage/control their CASM for the market niche they serve.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
mikeymike
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 6:52 am

RE: Interesting Article About Song

Wed Apr 16, 2003 10:16 am

Marcus, I think you have some rather mixed up facts

Song seat pitch is 33"
JetBlue seat Pitch is 32"

Song seat width is 17"
JetBlue seat width is 18"

How can song's lowest round trip be $379 as you quoted yet their lowest one way be only $79. Unless math has changed in the past day or so, $79+$79 is $158

You forget that while there are 24 Free TV channels, there are also satellite radio, Stored music, Ninetendo video games, and inter-seat trivia games where you play trivia against the other 198 people in the cabin. Pretty neat actually.

So now JetBlue has some competition. Neeleman can be as cras as they want to be however again I reiterate my point, that while song won't wipe out the competition, it will create a duoploly in many markets and stop the major erosion of market share in the north-south corridor from defecting to JetBlue.

Also, to people who believe the DL is practicing anti-competive behavior, how can that be when DL doesn't even match JetBlues fares, sounds like some people don't know what they're talking about.

Mike
 
fspilot747
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 2:58 am

RE: Interesting Article About Song

Wed Apr 16, 2003 10:33 am

Folks, this is business. Do you think that Delta cares that jetBlue is going to hurt because "it's no fair!"? Not a chance. Delta is shoving song out into the market because, like most other major airlines out there, they are in a boiling pot of water.

Eventually, when jetBlue has to start paying for their planes, they may very well be in steam themselves. Right now, the major airlines are going to do everything financially possible to keep themselves alive and stable. Is this a good move by Delta? I don't think they would have done it if their team of experts deemed it otherwise. Personally, I think it's pretty brazen, but kudos to them for trying to stay afloat.

It may seem "bullyish," and "tacky" that they're following so closely with JBlue and Southwest, but thus is the nature of the industry.

Cheers,
FSP

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