DeltaSFO
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Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:31 am

FOX News is reporting that the Association of Professional Flight Attendants has narrowly voted down a concessions package, which will in all likelihood send AMR into Chapter 11.

They've reported that APFA leadership is meeting with AA leadership to try to quickly organize a second vote in an effort to try to pass a concessions package and keep the company out of bankruptcy.

We better hope they can do that, because if AA goes bankrupt, the rest of the industry is in a lot of trouble.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:36 am

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/030415/airlines_american_9.html

DALLAS (Reuters) - Flight attendants at American Airlines on Tuesday voted against a concession agreement, paving the way for an imminent bankruptcy filing by the world's largest carrier, a local news radio station reported.
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The airline has said that if its three major union groups do not ratify deals that will help save the carrier $1.8 billion a year in labor costs, American, a division of AMR Corp. (NYSE:AMR - News), would be forced to file for bankruptcy.

News radio station KRLD reported that the union had narrowly rejected the deal and was in talks with the airline to see if they could quickly poll their members again. The two other major unions at American had approved concession deals earlier in the day.

The Association of Professional Flight Attendants voted against a deal that would cut annual pay and benefits for flight attendants collectively by $340 million.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
N777UA
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:39 am

This will not fare well for Chicago, cause if AA files, then 85% of Chicago O'Hare airport will be in bankruptcy!!
 
N79969
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:45 am

If I were UA, I would be scared. Guess who is getting out of paying a lot of leases and interest payments ? Actually now Delta, NWA, and CO will have compounded problems as well. If I were an AA employee, I would also be very, very concerned.

I hope they reconsider and vote again.
 
KUGN
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:51 am

Mixed bag of news for Chicago O'Hare airport today - Sen. Peter Fitzgerald announcing that he will not seek the reelection, then news of AA on the brinks of bankrupcy. They lost the opposition to the expansion, but financiers as well.

 
Boeingfan
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:57 am

AMR halted after attendants reject cuts
Pilots, mechanics earlier approved labor concessions
By August Cole & Jennifer Waters, CBS.MarketWatch.com
Last Update: 3:35 PM ET April 15, 2003


NEW YORK (CBS.MW) -- American Airlines flight attendants have reportedly voted to reject labor concessions, paving the way for the bankruptcy of the industry's largest airline.

NEWS FOR AMR
AMR halted after attendants reject cuts
Stocks jostle near flat line in earnings tug-of-war

The pilots union and mechanics union earlier approved historic labor concessions to help the No. 1 carrier stave off bankruptcy. American had said that just one union voting against the cuts would bring about a bankruptcy filing, possibly as soon as Tuesday.

AMR Corp. shares (AMR: news, chart, profile) were halted for trading as of 3:06 p.m. ET. Shares, which had been the most active on the New York Stock Exchange, last traded at $3.40, up 32 cents, or 10 percent.

APFA: Reject concessions

The Association of Professional Flight Attendants have rejected labor concessions, according to the Wall Street Journal, in a last-minute vote. The vote was narrowly rejected, the paper said.

A recorded message indicates the leadership of the union will hold a conference call to discuss the vote results.

On Monday, American's flight attendants asked for more time to consider the rank-and-file impact of the cost reductions, according to the union's Web site. American wants about $340 million in concessions from the union members.

Union leaders have already suggested that members approve the cost cuts because it's expected that the airlines lenders would impose much harsher conditions in the event of a Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Pilots: OK

The Allied Pilots Association said 69 percent of its membership voted to approve the new contract. About 95 percent of eligible pilots voted, the union said. The airline was looking for $660 million in savings from the group.

"Clearly, the gut-wrenching decision our pilots have had to make will have a major impact on their lives in terms of additional furloughs, pay cuts and retirement savings," said APA President John Darrah.

TWU: OK

Transport Workers Union members voted to approve labor concessions with American Airlines, the second union to announce Tuesday that its membership accepted new terms to keep the carrier out of bankruptcy.

According to the union's Web site, 53 percent of the members approved the new concessions. The TWU, whose members work as mechanics, technicians and in other roles, had been asked by the airline to approve considerable cuts of more than $600 million.

In total, AMR executives have said they want to save a total of $4 billion. $1.8 billion was to come from the carrier's workers, including ticketing agents and management.

"The bloodletting here is not just in labor, it's the entire system. Being a supplier to an airline today is not much more fun than being an employee," said Bill Alderman, president of aerospace investment bank Alderman and Co.

In comparison with low-cost operator Southwest Airlines, AMR's cost per available seat-mile is about 46 percent higher, according to data from Alderman and Co.

Playing in part off the activity in AMR's shares, the Amex Airline Index (XAL: news, chart, profile) was last up 5.5 percent. See full story.

August Cole is spot news editor at CBS.MarketWatch.com in Chicago
Jennifer Waters is the Chicago bureau chief for CBS.MarketWatch.com.
--------------------------------------------------
Hopefully a re vote will be approved for the APFA, as this narrowly missed approval. It will be approved the 2nd time around, staving off a Ch. 11 filing at AA.

If they restructure under the shelter of the Bankruptcy Court, all other carriers should be very aware, as AA will have lower costs, and will come out of bankruptcy in Fall to end 2003, lean, mean, and ready to expand in all markets, hiring back all those who were furloughed. This may be a good thing in the long run? Hope so. Bf



 
b757300
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:58 am

Another airline that has been f*cked over by a union. I hope all the F/A's enjoy being out of work.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
artsyman
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:02 am

This just seems insane. They will now file, and the FA's will be forced to take bigger cuts than they just rejected.

Jeremy
 
drdivo
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:03 am

I believe that, if AA/AMR files, and then works to modify aircraft leases using bankruptcy rules, NW/CO/DL have no choice but to approach their lessors with demands that their own aircraft financing terms be modified to meet the new market.

This would then shift some of the burden of the current bloodbath to the aircraft lessors.

To remain competitive, in the event of an AA/AMR bankruptcy, the other majors will have to gain modification of their financing terms. If the lessors refuse to play ball, the other major carriers may go through Chapter 11 just so as to force lease modifications on them, just as Hawaiian did a few weeks back.

Has anyone noted that we have three airlines that are in or recently out of bankruptcy, plus AA/AMR? If/when AA/AMR files, it will put half of the total number, and well more than 60% of the capacity through Chapter 11 in the past year, plus the small carriers that didn't make it - Vanguard and National being among them.

Things have never been this rough for the airline industry.
Respectfully - the Divo
 
artsyman
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:06 am

NW/CO/DL have no choice but to approach their lessors with demands that their own aircraft financing terms be modified to meet the new market.
*************

While I cant speak for Delta or Northwest, Continental has already started renegiotiating these.
 
Braniff727
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:09 am

Northwest said in a special newsletter to employees a while back that everytime an airline renegotiates deals with a vendor, NW will demand the same deal. I'm sure they are already in negotiations. NW is a well run airline.
Climbing
 
Boeingfan
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:15 am

Poor planning, saving, and awarding very lucrative contracts in good times in a very historically cyclical industry.

Labor, does not get all the blame for their "asking" and "receiving" the lucrative contracts. Both sides share in the burden of poor planning, in efficient lease terms, and while the party rolled in the late '90's to 2000, no one kept an eye out on risk for the future. Market share and ego's played too large a part in this out come.

This event hopefully, will bring a new focus on fiscal conservation, responsibility, and may open the doors to new ways of operating an airlines cash flow, managing assets, and spending habits. Learning, and moving forward, with accountability will improve this industry in the long run.

CASM (cost per available seat mile) is more important now, then ever before.

2cents Bf

 
ual777contrail
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:15 am

you guys need to stop fighting, this is exactly what all you tossers did when UAL filed.

you'll get through it, just because the mouse has his leg in the trap doesnt mean you have to bite it off just yet.

only words of advice is stick together, and you AA people are now going to have to deal with all these people who think they can solve the airlines problems from behind their PC's.


ual 777 contrail
 
chautauquasaab
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:24 am

Well said UAL 777 Contrail!
Godspeed AA!
 
kevi747
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:25 am

This is exactly what I worried would happen. The pilots and ground workers would ratify their TA's and we wouldn't. Now we look like the jerks. I wish they'd say how many of us voted yes. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I didn't agree with it, but the membership made this decision and now we'll all have to live with it. Oh well, I'm off to SJU. Last trip? Hope not. See ya.

PS: Did I mention this sucks?
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert
 
searpqx
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:35 am

When the announcement came out the APFA board was meeting to 'discuss the vote' after voting had ended I had a sneaking suspicion that it had failed, it was close, and everyone, the company included, was scrambling to find a way out. The fact that AA hasn't yet filed, despite having everything in line to do so indicates that there may be at least a chance for a re-vote.

If the union can figure out a way to do it, and the company agrees, hopefully y'all will get another chance. Either way, good luck to everyone involved. Its going to be a rough ride.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:40 am

I'll bet American is actually very happy about this. There have been so many reports about how American may not have asked for enough cuts between the operating losses due to the economy, coupled with Iraq and now SARS. It works out well for AA so they won't have to piss anyone off even more down the road if they were to ask for deeper cuts to cover their asses.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
m717
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:43 am

B757300,

I won't tell you to mind your own business, but I will say you are WAY out of touch with reality if you think that AA is just another airline that was f*cked over by a union. All the "legacy" carriers have problems that go much deeper than union contracts.

I wonder why you weren't singing this same song duing the record profit years of the mid to late 90s? Those same unions had those same contracts then. What do you supposed happened? Perhaps you picked a bad time to invest in AMR and you're looking for a scapegoat? It's always easiest to point the finger at others, isn't it?
 
goingboeing
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:46 am

One has to wonder...at what point will the bankruptcy courts say "Enough" and force one of the majors into liquidation?
 
sllevin
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:49 am

While the plan was rejected, still, it's close. It may well go through.

The reality is that the new contracts have a good premise at heart -- for everyone to be more tied to the performance of the company. When things are bad, everyone suffers, and when things are good, everyone will benefit. The various unions are just making sure that things are balanced so that when things DO get better, union members get the opportunity to join in.

Steve
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:50 am

I commend the FA's for voting down this terrible contract. Too bad the Pilots and Ground Workers didn't do the same. Carty is trying to make the work force carry the entire burden for the next SIX years. Why are these contracts soo long to fix a short term problem. Within two years travel may be back and the company making money. Do you think these contracts will be changed then? So make them a two year deal. If things haven't improved extend them.

Also how many cuts are comming out of management? So far all I've heard is Carty is forgoing his bonus and a pay cut. Have creditors and suppliers been included in the saving of AMR? How about fixing the revenue side of the equation? The employees should not be the only ones held at gun point.
 
Boeingfan
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:54 am

The APFA is re voting or re counting the vote on the AMR contract concessions, they have until 17:00 CT 16APR2003, to get the results in. It looks like it will pass now, as the vote was so close. This just reported on local ABC news affiliate Channel 8, DFW / KDFW), USA - Texas">DFW.

So it is not over 'till its over, so there is still a chance that things could change for the better/or worse, depending upon if you are in finance, or working the ramp.

No Ch. 11 filing yet. The APFA still has time to approve the new contract. Now, this may spell more loses for AA (short term,) as it will be harder to renegotiate asset and service leases out side of bankruptcy protection.

Cross your fingers, the APFA will do the right thing, and approve the concession contract.

The stock will rise again, tomorrow. The sun will rise, and AA will fly a full schedule. See below:
------------------------------------------------

Associated Press
American Flight Attendants Extend Voting

Tuesday April 15, 4:50 pm ET
By Angela K. Brown, Associated Press Writer
American Airlines Flight Attendants Given One More Day to Vote on Labor Concessions

FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) -- American Airlines flight attendants were given one more day to vote on whether to accept labor concessions the airline says it needs to avoid bankruptcy, a labor leader said.
The reprieve came after a union official said the flight attendants were on the verge of narrowly rejecting $340 million in wage cuts and other concessions.

The flight attendants' vote was hanging in the balance after unions representing pilots and ground workers said Tuesday that they had approved their portion of the proposed $1.8 billion cuts.

The flight attendants union had complained Monday that some members were having trouble casting votes by phone and the Internet and sought an extension.
_______________________________________________




[Edited 2003-04-15 23:02:04]
 
artsyman
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:00 am

Why are these contracts soo long to fix a short term problem
*************************************

I dont think this is a short term problem, the days of old are long gone now. The industry needs restructured completely, and this is why most of the carriers are making moves to do so. I think passenger numbers will return, but the fares of old are gone
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:15 am

One word for the AMR F/A's

Idiots.

Have fun in the unemployment lines. The old EA workers can teach you the ropes, I'm sure.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:17 am

I have a vested interest in AMR so please think before you open your trap.

Yes, B757300's vested interest is that, being the GOP yes-man on here, that workers make as little as possible so that he can reap huge dividends on his stock portfolio.  Wink/being sarcastic
 
drdivo
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:26 am

I sent an email to a friend of mine here who used to work in HR/Compensation for one of the majors before moving on to more stable industries (petrochem.) I told him that the FAs had voted down the give-backs, and his reply was only this:

"Where else today can you earn $60,000 a year working two weeks a month, and see the world for free?"

I agree with artsyman, that the only survivors are going to be the ones who dramatically shift their cost structures.

In MBA and business school, they talk of "commodity" businesses. These are businesses and products where there is no substantive difference between the companies offering the same product. The airline industry, as much as they try to differentiate between themselves, are a commodity business now. The only way to make money in a commodity business is to cut your cost of the commodity product to the lowest possible, and to offer some product that isn't viewed as a commodity - and you make money - can ONLY make money - offering that. Otherwise, you're just covering your costs.

When I first started flying, CO had pubs in their DC-10 fleet. I flew to Miami once (in 1982) standing at the bar, ordering cocktails. I only sat in my seat for take-off and landing.

Those days are GONE, brothers. Everyone needs to understand that he with the lowest CSM will be a winner.

I don't know what the answer to these problems are, but I just remember DL, UA and AA giving their employee groups huge increases just a few years ago. Someone in this thread was profound when they pointed out that the airline business is inherently cyclical, and neither management nor employee groups can indulge in spending the money during the few short years that they make it.
Respectfully - the Divo
 
777D
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:32 am

I agree this is a issue where the majors must restructure themselves to survive. The airline industry has changed with the internet, LCC and etc.

The majors must change or disappear.

I support the LCC for the reason that the majors have for years drilled the flying public with their high fares. There have been many stories here about how LCC were much better than the majors.

I suppose the flight attendants will hear their share of complaints from the other unions as well as the shareholders.

I read a posting which stated when will the courts become tired of all the airlines and let one of liquidate? Is this possible?

Perhaps the future for the majors would be one class seating configs for domestic that feed their domestic flights?








 
DIA
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:46 am

A lot of the FAs voted a week ago. Since then, after the FA's got a sweetened deal, many had changed their minds, but could not go back and change their vote. When the A^A FAs vote within the next 24 hours, a lot more will vote "yes."

The difference between the "yes's" and "no's" was 500 votes.

DIA

[Edited 2003-04-15 23:50:38]
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
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coronado
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:04 am

DL/CO/NW are sure to follow with a gut wrenching round of wage cuts and lay-offs. NWA mechanics are up in arms over plans to lay off another 900 mechanics on top of the 2000 announced a couple weeks ago along with wage cuts.

Either in or out of bankruptcy costs will be brought down. However, this does not address the current massive glut of capacity and just postpones that day of reckoning.

I guess the airline that has the most stubborn union will be the one to be liquidated, thereby cutting industry wide capacity. Right now I am concerned about the pronouncements of the NWA mechanics. While NWA may have the largest cash cushion of the majors, this may just serve to embolden their unions to play extra-tough and may make them the most at risk of being squeezed past the point of breaking.

Again--the issue is who is going to be the first to really sacrifice capacity?
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:32 am

Coronado mentioned the mechanic cuts at NWA. NWA looks like it has decided to get out of the business of maintaning airplanes. With cuts this deep many of the heavy maintence functions will not be preformed by NW employess. The work still has to be done. The work will be shifted to the lowest bidder, some of it possibly to third world shops that pay next to nothing. This may bite them down the road in either a safety issue or long term wear on their fleet.

Once these good jobs are gone they may never come back.
 
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coronado
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:52 am

Dalmd88-- you are absolutely right--these jobs will not come back. Living in Eagan MN several of my kids class mates are mechanics at NW. It will hurt some great families.

I was coming from the perpspective that with UAL, AA, US all agreeing to some pretty massive wage concessions what will happen to the other majors. Which of the US majors will not be in business by the summer of 2004

Continental seems to be opting for massive layoffs rather than wage cuts. Delta--wage cuts?? NWA management seems to be emulating both CO and UAL/US/AA by pushing for both massive lay offs as well as wage cuts.

And yes I am aware that NWA needs union approval to contract out more than I think 38% of its maintenance work. With the announced cuts including the lay-offs at the Duluth Airbus base one can only conclude they are looking to send the maintenance work off shore. Quite appropriately this should alarm the mechanics.

However IMHO this conflict may just end up in a labor/company war causing the capacity decrease required by the industry to come from the elimination of NWA. While NWA has cash, all of it is borrowed, and they have an awful balance sheet with a substantial negative equity. Other than higher cash balances, NWA is just in bad a shape as the other majors, from my reading of their balance sheets. And if NWA ends up being the sacrificial lamb in the capacity reduction excercise, that will really hurt my home town.
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
DIA
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:23 am

Just the latest on the vote tomorrow:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/900475.asp?0cv=CB10&cp1=1

DIA
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
deltairlines
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:37 am

This could push AA over the edge significantly here. I remember reading that AA's debt/assets ratio is almost 1:1, which does not bode well in any situation, which could lead to a quick Chapter 7 ending, since the investors care about their money, not the jobs, etc. It's capitalism, and it's life. The situation is quite bleak over at AA, and I think it would take a miracle to save them.

Jeff
 
Guest

RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 9:11 am

>>Living in Eagan MN several of my kids class mates are mechanics at NW<<

And outsourcing to the lowest bidder is worse than using children HOW?  Big grin  Big grin  Big grin
 
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coronado
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:02 am

Pardon the skipped words ''kids class mates parents are mechanics'' OOPS

Maybe using kids as mechanics will be discussed in the next round in 2004 as the industry still copes with overcapacity!!
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
milemaster
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:20 am

I just love it..

Here in the DFW area we're enjoying a 9%(some estimates are significantly higher) unemployment rate.. Looks like it's going to jump a point or two very soon.

These people are lucky to be working at all.

Idiots.
 
mirrodie
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:41 am

Another airline that has been f*cked over by a union. I hope all the F/A's enjoy being out of work.



While this isn't the entire cause, it is another bone of contention. Being a former union worker myself and coming from an AA family, I must say the vote 'no' was not a very smart one.

Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
northwest_guy
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:33 pm

I can't understand why they (the unions) would do that when their company is doing so bad right now. Now doesn't seem to be the best time to be picky. I would think that they would want to do everything they could to keep their company afloat. Oh well, I suppose that they must know some things that I don't know.
 
AA717driver
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:44 pm

Northwest guy--They did it because Carty has done nothing but lie cheat and steal since he set foot in the CEO's chair. AMR is getting the respect and trust from the employees that they deserve.

AA has the worst employee relations in the business(having taken over that title from NW in the late '80's). The management relishes that situation and presides over a corporate structure that preserves it.

This observation comes from an outsider--I saw this before the merger and nothing since has changed my mind.TC
FL450, M.85
 
alexchao
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:54 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if AA goes bankrupt because of one union just like United.

However, I'd be very sad to see AA enter bankruptcy. But if they can emerge a better airline, I see bankruptcy as an opportunity.

-alexchao
 
B727-200
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:21 pm


And again, an FA union puts its own short-term glory against potential long-term security and benefits. A similar thing happened at Ansett, and it was a big nail in a coffin that already had the lid on.

And guess who will be the ones on TV crying at the airports in their uniforms because they have turned up for work AND THERE IS NO WORK THERE????

Pathetic, myopic, inconsiderate and self-absorbed.

B727-200.
 
flashmeister
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RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 10:58 pm

Dalmd88 said:
Why are these contracts soo long to fix a short term problem.

This is NOT a short-term problem by any means. It's much deeper than that. Network carriers, and LCCs for that matter, cannot continue to do business like they did during the days of the tech bubble. Why is this so hard to believe? People often say 'it'll be like it was: the jobs will come back', not realizing that 'the way it was' existed in a time of irrational spending. It won't be like it was, and it shouldn't be.

I commend Carty for this sort of approach: telling employees to put their cards on the table. Are AMR's employees serious about changing structure and getting back to profitability or is AMR just a silver-liveried money grab?

Coronado said:
The issue is who is going to be the first to really sacrifice capacity?

This really is the issue. Someone has to be first, unfortunately, and it has to happen soon. Either someone will volunteer with dramatic capacity reductions (not likely), or someone will die (fairly likely).

AA717driver said:
Carty has done nothing but lie cheat and steal since he set foot in the CEO's chair. AMR is getting the respect and trust from the employees that they deserve. AA has the worst employee relations in the business.

That begs the question: If it's so bad, why stay? You make it sound like it's three steps from a sweatshop, and yet you go to work every day. Why?

I have a feeling that it probably has to do with your less-than-sweatshop salary, work rules, and representation. So, while you may not have every golden egg from the goose (yet), you do have a hell of a lot going for you in your profession. If you're that opposed to the company and the way they do business, then put your balls and seniority on the line and leave. To bitch about your company and do nothing about it (besides gleefully take their money) makes your argument appear as nothing more than greedy noise.

B727-200 said:
Pathetic, myopic, inconsiderate and self-absorbed.

Welcome to life in Union-dictated American industry.
 
wannabe
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 1999 3:37 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:27 pm

I watched as my industry (Telecom) imploded 3 years ago, and everyone on that ship thought that it couldn't happen to them. "Solid" companies such as Nortel and Lucent suffered just as much, if not more, than the smaller dot coms. Now it's the airline industry's turn. You would think, after watching Pan AM, TWA, UAL, Swiss Air......that the workers at AA would figure out there are no free passes in this environment. The industry is really in a crisis and no company can manage themselves out of it without major changes to cost structures. And the bigger your structure, the more dramatic the required changes. Any concession you can make to save your job is better than sitting at home, surfing the web for non-existent jobs, and watching your unemployment and Cobra benefits run out. Trust me, been there and done that. These are different times than most of us are used to. Accept the changes before harsher ones are forced upon you.
 
BeltwayBandit
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:25 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:45 pm

Unfortunately, the travel "product" has become generic, and the internet has helped to make it so. Price is the predominant differentiation. (Major exception is jetBlue which has drawn customers with IFE and cool ads -- but that differentiation will not last long.)

It's a new reality, and the industry will restructure to address it. Point-to-point is NOT the new paradigm; it is simply a step the industry is taking in reaching the next paradigm. There is no purer capitalistic industry than commercial aviation, and as a result, if I had to predict, I would say that in 2 or 3 years, we'll be back to a hub and spoke system, with lower costs overall. There will be a lot of point-to-point, but the cost advantage of hubs (assuming other costs are equal) will win out.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:14 am

Full pay till the last day!

Fucking dolts.

Do these idiots ever stop to think that if they dont give concessions to the airline, they will not be earning ANY MONEY once the airline goes out of business.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
KUGN
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:36 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:52 am

Seems like they don't. Sabena part 3.
 
N777UA
Posts: 566
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:06 pm

RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Thu Apr 17, 2003 1:06 am

Well, if they do file, it will be a major slap in the face to employees...just like it was when United filed in December.
 
Hole_Courtney
Posts: 549
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 1999 12:51 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Thu Apr 17, 2003 8:31 am

JCS17,

life isn't all about money. a lot of what these unions are fighting for is workers' dignity. and American has shown in the past years that it gives a crap about their workers, to put it straight.

Would you rather have a job where you slaved in the heat of a factory for 12 hours a day, but got paid $5.15/hour, or would you try and fight for better conditions at your company? Would you be worried if your company went under, especially if they treated you like crap? I think not

And quit bad mouthing Unions for christs sake. You wouldn't have a lot of things if it wasn't for the labour movement in at the end of the 1800's. You can thank them for your 8 hour day, minimun wages, and other things. so quit your bitchin' because you'd be in a factory for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week otherwise.

live forever and stay beautiful,
hole_courtney
"[He] knew everything about literature, except how to enjoy it." - Yossarian, Catch 22
 
AA767400
Posts: 1889
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Thu Apr 17, 2003 10:57 am

Well, now all you guys can shut the F*$# UP! Because the vote has now
gone to yes. So, if AA does still file for chapter 11, or 7, or whatever.
You stupid wannabe ceo's on here can't say that the "idiots in the sky"
are the ones to blame!
"The low fares airline."
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 4717
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: AMR F/As Reject Concessions

Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:07 am

WELL PUT AA767400  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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