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Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:42 am

From The Moscow Times:

SHORT EXCERPT:
Aeroflot Sticks By Hammer and Sickle

By Lyuba Pronina
Staff Writer

Although Aeroflot is desperately trying to shed its Soviet image, it isn't quite ready to make good on a promise to give up the most cherished part of its 70-year-old heritage: its hammer-and-sickle logo.

But just in case it decides to change its mind again, the winged logo painted on its 100-plus jets will be replaced with easily removable stickers.

Deputy Aeroflot general director Lev Koshlyakov said Tuesday that the airline decided to stick with the hammer and sickle because it couldn't come up with a better logo.


FULL ARTICLE: http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2003/04/16/002.html


I'm surprised that Aeroflot has decided to keep the tired old logo. Sure, there is quite a bit of history behind it, but that's part of the problem; after all, millions of innocent Russians suffered so much under the repressive Soviet regime symbolized by the hammer and sickle. One would think that Aeroflot would be eager to adopt a modern logo that would accurately refect the wonderful nation it serves, rather than retaining a symbol of a failed empire (and ideology). What do you think?


(Picture from www.moscowtimes.ru)

[Edited 2003-04-16 20:09:23]
 
747-451
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:44 am

How nice, they will have pcitures of the implements that they use to fix theirplanes on the planes  Insane
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:46 am

Lufthansa would NEVER put a swastika on their planes, a reminder of a hideous chapter in their history. I think Aeroflot should flush the hammer and sickle into the toilet of the past, where it belongs.
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Shamrock1Heavy
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:49 am

I think the historic value of it is invaluable. We only learn from each others mistakes. I think they need a new logo though. I remember my naive high school days when I calimed I was communist. Just to be diffrent. I reember seeing the Aeroflot logo and thinking "I want to fly them only!" But anyway, yeah, why not get a new logo, something that symbolizes the Russian people.

-D
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slawko
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:52 am

Shame..............I find it hard to imagine that a high paid UK branding firm cant come up with a new logo for aeroflot...gives the impression that Russian has nothing to show for itself other then its brutal past....Oh well all I have to say is Shame.....
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
An-225
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 3:57 am

I actually like the logo, and I hope they keep it for a long time to come. It's probably one of the classiest ones around, next only to KLM.

Alex.
Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
 
Guest

RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 3:59 am

Lufthansa would NEVER put a swastika on their planes, a reminder of a hideous chapter in their history. I think Aeroflot should flush the hammer and sickle into the toilet of the past, where it belongs.

But is there still a company called Volkswagon? And do they still produce the Beatle? You know, that contraption which is also referred to as "Hitler's car"? Isn't that car also the best selling car in automotive history? Just because of what might have been in the past, does mean it can't represent the people of today.

But anyway, yeah, why not get a new logo, something that symbolizes the Russian people.

And this is basically what the hammer and sickle do represent; the people. This "argument" has been done time and time again. But let's think for just a moment. If Aeroflot has been unable to decide on a "new" logo which the customers would approve of, what does this tell you? Obviously that there is still enough people in Russia who understand what the hammer and sickle represents, and they want to keep it. It could also mean that the people did not like the other choices.

I have chatted with quite a few Russians today about this very subject. And they say they want to see this logo kept by Aeroflot. And these guys and gals are not your Communist nationalistic types either.

Changing a logo which has been used for over 70 years and enjoys instant brand recognition world wide is not so easy.

[Edited 2003-04-16 21:01:12]
 
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yyz717
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 4:03 am

I agree with Slawko. The hammer & sickle represents a communist dictatorship that killed 70M people, more than Nazism. The winged hammer & sickle is as offensive as would be a winged swastika. Shame on Aeroflot.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
gerardo
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:08 am

I wonder if we could have some RUSSIAN opinions by people living in Russia, which happen to be probably the biggest m,arket for Aeroflot, on this issue. I doubt, that any American airline would give a s... about the Russian opinions about the Star and Stripes banner.

Just a thought....

Gerardo
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slawko
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:13 am

I would imagine that Aeroflot's makes more money off of the international public, then it does from the domestic population, a large portion of which can not afford to drive let alone fly....and as such I would think that they would want to portray a new image of themselves as was stated by their original request for re-branding...Keeping this logo doesnt do a very good job of that...the image that has become known over the last 70 years is not of the same Aeroflot, and I thought taht by re-branding thats what they were trying to get accross to the international public
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Guest

RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:29 am

What about the compromise mentioned in the article (the design that would replace the hammer and sickle in the current design with a globe)? That way, Aeroflot would get rid of a very controversial symbol, while still retaining a link to its colorful past. Would this be acceptable to those who favor the old logo?

Aviatsiya wrote:

"But is there still a company called Volkswagon?"

Sure, but the Volkswagen logo -- or even the name -- doesn't contain any outright political symbolism. No one is suggesting that Aeroflot change its name or even the overall look of its logo; the problem here lies only in the hammer and sickle emblem -- a symbol of a failed empire and ideology, a symbol of an oppresive regime under which millions of Russians suffered so much, a symbol that does not represent modern Russia.
 
KUGN
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:33 am

Aviatsia:

"I have chatted with quite a few Russians today about this very subject. And they say they want to see this logo kept by Aeroflot. And these guys and gals are not your Communist nationalistic types either."


This may or may not be so, but point to the fact is that in former Eastern Block regimes heavely inflitrated aviation industry with secret police and pro-regime types. Would dissident be able to advance his/her carreer to airline pilot in Soviet Aeroflot or Interflug? Airline Industry has been one of the most heavily monitored industries, and my bet is that there are still subtle ties to the old interest groups.
 
LMP737
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:55 am

It's hard to believe that Aeroflot could not come up with a better logo. Someone earlier showed possible replacements and some were quite good.

P.S. I agree with those who say the hammer and sickle represent a dark chapter in Russian history that has to go.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 6:00 am

Agreed Yyz 717. This antiquated logo bares too heavy a significance. Is is quite offensive to a number of people.

How 'bout...uh.... uh....

Hammer and....

popsicle?



... everybody likes popsicles...
 
L.1011
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 6:10 am

 
Guest

RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 7:22 am

I missed Aviatsiya's thread from last month with pics of the various proposals including the globe-instead-of-the-hammer-and-sickle one. Here's the link if anyone else missed it as well:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1049470/

While the globe design seems to be the best one there, none of the proposals impress me too much. I do, however, really like the livery design proposal from puck:graphique (see L.1011's link above).

[Edited 2003-04-17 00:23:55]
 
rupertvander82
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 9:09 am

The hammer and sickle is a classic. My russian pal, who is not communistic in any sense, wants this logo to stay!
 
KUGN
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 9:10 am

He must have forgotten or not experianced what that symbol has once represented.
 
rupertvander82
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 9:49 am

Not true. He lived in the communistic times, and knows that the symbol represents. But now things are different, and the logo carries many fond memories.
 
slawko
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:12 am

Obviously things aren't very different if they are keeping the logo...like I said for an airline that wants to turn itself around and change its international image they sure have a strange way of doing it...Not they way I would want to portray the "new modern" russia if I was doing their re-branding...but then again, I guess things haven't changed much...they took back the soviet anthem (which has never been russia's anthem) Aeroflot keeps the hammer/sickle, maybe they should bring back the red rag instead of the Red White and Blue...may as well just go back to the good ole days, and occupy the surrounding nations...way to be progressive!!
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
milemaster
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:26 am

maybe they should bring back the red rag instead of the Red White and Blue

They haven't brought back the red flag yet.. but the military has just recently decided to officially keep the red star as the primary insignia of their military.

 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:37 am

I stand by my statement regarding the swastika/hammer and sickle analogy. Would American, Delta, Continental, Southwest, AirTran or Spirit (all being based in former Confederate States put a Stars and Bars on their planes? Hell no, it's too touchy of a subject, and offensive to many. The hammer and sickle represents INTERNATIONALLY, global Marxism and millions of people slaughtered, especially under Stalin. The past is the past and the best thing for Aeroflot Russian INTERNATIONAL Airlines to do is bury it, once and for all.
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LH526
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:03 pm

In my eyes, you have to differentiate between the the logo itself, and what purpose it should be used for! These are two very important issues! The logo itself comes from the soviet communist era, from an evil political regime, judging this, its a bad logo with a bad history representing that bad time, I don't know why the russian people still are proud of this logo and want to see it used further on Aeroflots planes. I'm not in the knowledge and position to judge about this phenomen, maybe russians only see the "good" parts of communism, and you don't need to be a communist to see good parts in communism. So, we non russians associate worse things with hammer & sickle than the russians do. And in conclusion, in our minds that logo doesn't fit a 21st century airline of a free, democratic country (that by the way has a great culture and is the biggest on mother earth  Smile/happy/getting dizzy )
Strange situation we are in here now .. so the source to THAT problem (russian history, hamer & sickle logo representing Aeroflot in teh future) has to be found deep in nowadays russian culture and society, as well as worldwide acceptance and researches. All that can't be judged within minutes.

The other point is Aeroflots brand and image itself:
Like I said in an earlier post about Aeroflots new logo, in my eyes the point is, that russia lacks a something like a "russian spirit", something that makes people proude and identifyable with the country (depsite the hammer & sickle logo), that can conclude in a strong brand and image of Russians airline Aeroflot. the logotype is something you can "go on" with but never should start with. Analyze the spirit, look at the country, than go on with the design. But simply starting putting some freaky colours and shapes together and combining them to some generic logotyp hardly is the way to represent one of the biggest airline in the world. In my eyes, branding a russian company is not an easy thing, because of the people and culture behind, do russians care anyway about good branding?? I don't think so. At least the people that work with Aeroflot and especiall thos who are in contacts with the passengers need to have a certain thoughts, ideas and spirit for the company they work for.

I mean what is the purpose of these other new logos, that were created?? Is it some panic like "Ahhh, marketing-rules tells us we need a logo, so let's make some proposals", that obviously is a wrong way of creating a new corporate image, maybe the managers at Aeroflot are to narrow minded to see to point of an good Marketing and the chance that resides in Coporate design and image, sad to see!
If Aeroflot goes further like this with finding their new CID, I'm convinced that the new Identity will be even weaker and more generic than the current one. I can't judge the design-scene in Russia, but I hardly saw any good design coming from russia in the last years! Or is this just another design coming from Airbus' own brand&design office?? If yes, that this is another story that has the potential for getting an own topic here  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

The point that Aeroflot lacks a good Image and their CID can hardly be compared to the one of other bigger european or Asian Airlines, is another point!

just my thoughts ...

Mario

[Edited 2003-04-17 05:11:24]
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
KUGN
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 1:11 pm

As I've already said, airline industry has been one of the most heavily monitored ones in Communist era, heavilly inflitrated by state and military security agencies; only party loyalists had access to the industry, and career that was more prestegious than it could have ever been for their peers' on the West. This mentality has been deeply rooted, and it has had serious consequences on the type workforce and middle management which was not prepared for the market economy. The result is known ... demise of airliner manufacturers, hundreds of baby-flots owned by mixed ownership of local goverments and ex-commie-tycoons, fleets of 2.35 airframes... No wonder the largest one in that mix still keeps the Communist insignia. My firm bet is that they still keep the strong ties with old interest groups, from Communist command economy era. After all, many of today's managers were admitted to the elite club based on someone's recomendation and permission.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 4:02 pm

Many of you seem to feel it is your right to abuse the symbols of other nations. Interesting.

Meanwhile, millions (and lets face it, probably billions) of people around the world find images of the United States very offensive. Yet nobody on this forum is going to criticise American Airlines for having the bald eagle as its logo. And what about the United Kingdom? The Union Jack is a hangover from its imperialist days, hardly the most joyous of eras for many people. Yet British Airways and BMI are never questioned as to why they incorporate it into their logos.

Perhaps if people stop taking such a Western-centric viewpoint, they will understand that for each country, their symbols have certain meanings to them, meanings that can change over the passage of time. A hammer and sickel, for instance, while formerly a symbol of oppressive Russian Communism, could very well be viewed by many Russians now as a symbol of hard work, industry and growth. Who knows? I don't, just trying to understand Aeroflot's motivation for maintaining the logo.

Even my national airline, Air New Zealand, has a symbol that could be seen by some as offensive and representative of some shameful past (exactly what, I'm not entirely sure, but each to his own opinion). Oh and before I'm labelled a communist or hard-core leftie, I'm actually moderately right of centre in my political views.

Go Aeroflot, hope they do well.
 
ra-85154
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:05 pm

Hi

I believe comparing the hammer and sickle to a swastika doesn't make sense, the same as comparing the Soviet regime to a Nazi regime. I am Dutch and we have a history of slave trading, does this mean we have to ban the Dutch flag? Well, I am not going to start an endless political discussion here regarding political correctness of symbol A and symbol B.



To me the old logo is the symbol for the heydays of Aeroflot, when it was the biggest airline in the world (the biggest there will ever be). Aeroflot is my favourite airline and I like the logo, period  Big thumbs up

Martijn
 
ds
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:08 pm

Hello,

this is a very strange discussion. It shows that western propaganda is of the same effect and power as soviet. "Oh, we are Westerners! We are Democratic! We know better what is good for those stupid Russians! Really, they are so stupid that they don't even know what that symbol means!". I am Russian, I live there, I know, what the symbol means, I remember the communist times, and believe me, I am very pleased that Aeroflot decided to keep the symbol. I think that you would not find much people in current Russia who thinks that the logo should be removed.

KUGN: "... demise of airliner manufacturers, hundreds of baby-flots owned by mixed ownership of local goverments and ex-commie-tycoons, fleets of 2.35 airframes... "
But many Russians think that "the Hammer and Stickle" logo opposes to these problems.

By the way, what are the "old interest groups, from Communist command economy era"? Can you name just one to me?
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:32 pm

I think they need to get rid of the hammer and sickle. It's too old fashioned and a reminder of the communist days. Why not just have a Russian flag on the tail or something? Would look a lot better. Personally i have never really liked Aeroflot's livery- especially their old one. Get rid of the hammer and sickle!
 
ra-85154
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 7:25 pm


OzarkD9S: The hammer and sickle represents INTERNATIONALLY, global Marxism and millions of people slaughtered, especially under Stalin. The past is the past and the best thing for Aeroflot Russian INTERNATIONAL Airlines to do is bury it, once and for all


OzarkD9S for your information, see also the logo in my post: Aeroflot last year dropped the "INTERNATIONAL" from the company name, to stress the Russian identity...

 
Guest

RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 8:42 pm

I do, however, really like the livery design proposal from puck:graphique

I don't like it much at all. Firstly the logotype looks funny. In particular the Ф.

I wonder if we could have some RUSSIAN opinions by people living in Russia, which happen to be probably the biggest market for Aeroflot, on this issue.

Sure you can. But you won't find to many of them here. Try asking on the Aviatsiya group and you can have the opinions of some people there. Or find out from the people who frequent avia.ru (and hopefully soon from aviatsiya.ru)  Smile

I would imagine that Aeroflot's makes more money off of the international public

At the moment some 70% of revenue comes from international flights. But Aeroflot is concentrating more on the domestic market these days, which is the reason for getting rid of the Tu-154s, Il-62s, Il-86s and Tu-134s. This revenue % from international operations will come down in the future.

a large portion of which can not afford to drive let alone fly

You obviously haven't seen fares in Russia lately  Laugh out loud

Sure, but the Volkswagen logo -- or even the name -- doesn't contain any outright political symbolism

Of course it does. Throughout history, the Volkswagen Beetle has been, and is still, known as the car Hitler built.

I stand by my statement regarding the swastika/hammer and sickle analogy.

You are fully entitled to do that. Just as I am fully entitled to disagree with you. Different horses for different courses.

The past is the past and the best thing for Aeroflot Russian INTERNATIONAL Airlines to do is bury it, once and for all.

Actually, for nearly 2 years now the airline has been known simply as Aeroflot Russian Airlines. The "International" was dropped to reflect the airline's new focus on the domestic Russian market.

I don't know why the russian people still are proud of this logo and want to see it used further on Aeroflots planes.

Because for the Russian people, the hammer and sickle represents the good old days when everyone had a job, everyone was taken care of, etc. Quite different from today I am afraid. Even with the most devout capitalist in Russia, they will still probably see the benefits of the communist past. Also, the winged hammer and sickle represents an industry which the Russians are very proud of, and rightly so. Aeroflot was the world's largest airline. They carried more passengers every year and had more aircraft that the mega-airlines of today could only dream of. It is the people's airline.

In my eyes, branding a russian company is not an easy thing, because of the people and culture behind, do russians care anyway about good branding?? I don't think so.

Of course they care about branding. Particularly in the consumers markets. Try asking my new boss and see what he has to say about that  Wink/being sarcastic

I can't judge the design-scene in Russia, but I hardly saw any good design coming from russia in the last years!

Again, this is an opinion you are allowed to have. But I will disagree. S7, 7B, E5, plus others, all have brands which aren't just known in their home market, but throughout Russia, and are very smart designs for their aircraft.

KUGN

We all know that you are still pissed at 1956 and also your misguided views on Russian business these days. Of course there are oligarchic companies such as Gazprom and to some extent, Aeroflot. But have you heard of the new breed of Russian aviation professionals? Names such as Vladislav Filyov and Dmitry Kamenshik? Ask yourself how these two people were able to take their respective companies from basically run down operations and now they are leaders in their respective industries.
 
ben
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 8:52 pm


Slawko, you and other Ukrainian expatriate ultra-nationalists are never going to fly on Aeroflot anyway, just on principle... are you? Would you ever dream of it?

The stereotypical fat dumb American businessman wont either (even if it is only because his company said so)...

The escorted tours of nursing-home-aged westerners arent ever going to use Aeroflot...

No matter what friggin logo they have!

It isnt going to change the deep-rooted superiority complex that a lot of 'westerners' have. So many years of propaganda have taken their toll on us in the 'west' too. Sad... really sad...

The market that Aeroflot caters for is primarily in favour of the hammer and sickle logo. Believe me! It's just like DS says above.

Like Aviatsiya, I have asked coutless Russian and ex-USSR contacts of mine over the years - and recently - and they all say the same thing: Keep it!
 
Guest

RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 9:06 pm

I know this is off topic somewhat, but it is a fact which should be brought into the discussion I think. Yes, many ex-Soviet citizens are against the hammer and sickle in all of its forms. But what these nationalists, in particular the Ukrainians, forget to tell is that during WWII, yes they wanted to get rid of the "hammer and sickle" government, and collaborated with the "swastika" government instead.
 
slawko
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 10:17 pm

Yeah thats true they did...I guess they considered th swastika government the lesser of two evils...which goes a long way to indicate what most of them thought of Stalin's rule...Many Czec's, Poles, and Hungarians did the same thing...

I dont like being labled one of those Ultra Nationalist Ukrainians...sure my background comes into play when discussing this kind of stuff, regardless of who I am or where I come from the simple fact remains that the logo is a sybmol of a failed attempt at nationhood, and it represents the same things that the Swastika, the confederate flag, or other such symbols do and thats where my point of view comes from...

I guess we will have to agree to dissagree...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
ben
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 10:23 pm

I guess we will have to agree to dissagree...

Good attitude... I know what you mean. Let's wait and see how this turns out.
 
KUGN
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 10:34 pm

DS:
"KUGN: "... demise of airliner manufacturers, hundreds of baby-flots owned by mixed ownership of local goverments and ex-commie-tycoons, fleets of 2.35 airframes... "
But many Russians think that "the Hammer and Stickle" logo opposes to these problems. "

"Hammer and Sickle" was the cause of such problems in market transition, as it has breeded a new class of businessmen out of well-connected party loyal insiders, while the masses, ordinary people were shut out of the process being unprepared, uneducated and left to their own devices. I can certainly understand that sense of nostalgia toward the times of economic security, however it is false -- it is that symbol of "old glory" that bankrupted their society, left them unprepared while advancing former nomenklatura members into new privateers and ultimately caused all of this distress.


Aviatsia,

I also have some words of praise for Russian economy nowdays - your flat tax system that has been recently introduced is making results, and the growth Russian economy has experianced is admirable. I don't know who Vladislav Filyov and Dmitry Kamenshik are, but I hope you could let us know sometime. It is allways good to hear the stories of success, anywhere. Most certainly, I'd much rather listen about real enterprenuers in Russian / exSoviet / EEuropan / aviation industry, than seeing examples of Gazprom, old-school movers returning communist insignia to the companies that should be driving the economy into the future.

 
IndianGuy
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:07 pm

YYZ717: Exacltly what is it to you if Aeroflot retains the hammer and sickle?

Aeroflot is a Russian carrier and should go by what their Russian customers want.

Until such time as Russia gets an American Governor, you can restrict yourself to commenting on clapped out Canadian DC9's.

-Roy
 
jwenting
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:53 pm

They've had too many changes already.
Name changed from "Soviet Airlines" to "Russian Airlines", puchase of Boeing and now Airbus aircraft, introduction of customer service, and now you people want them to change their logo, the very essence of their identity and last remaining link to their past?
I wish I were flying
 
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yyz717
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:47 am

YYZ717: Exacltly what is it to you if Aeroflot retains the hammer and sickle?

Errr......last time I checked, this was a discussion forum & everyone is allowed an opinion.

Until such time as Russia gets an American Governor, you can restrict yourself to commenting on clapped out Canadian DC9's.

Go to hell. I will comment on what I choose. That's what living in a free society allows. Incidently, there are no Canadian DC-9s anymore. Given the poor safety standards in India.....you should not be commenting on clapped-out DC-9's.

Those of us who are anti-Communist have an understanding of the economic rape that the Soviet system caused in the 20th century.....70M dead, over 1B people impoverished in the name of a failed economic model. That's what the hammer & sickle represents. Aerofloy may as well paste Hitler's face on the aircraft, it wuold be no less offensive.








I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Guest

RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Fri Apr 18, 2003 3:23 am

Many of you seem to feel it is your right to abuse the symbols of other nations. Interesting.

Very wrong; no one here said anything negative about Russia's symbols; in fact, I personally really like the country and will soon begin learning the Russian language.

Here's the problem: The hammer and sickle logo do not, in my mind, symbolize modern Russia, but the Soviet Union (an opressive, failed empire) and communism (an opressive, failed ideology). Of course, many ordinary Russians have experienced extremely tough times since the collapse of the Soviet Union and may have a great deal of nostalgia for the "good old times". This is perfectly understandable. Aeroflot's decision to keep a controversial, politically charged, ultimately divisive symbol is not. After all, many white South Africans may have fond memories of the apartheid era, but SAA totally revamped its look after the end of minority rule. You don't see any South African planes bearing pictures of the pre-1994 flag, do you? It's not the best analogy, but the general idea is similar. Why use a divisive symbol of a failed regime if there are modern alternatives available?

If Aeroflot's mangement could not find a better replacement, this just means that they either did not try hard enough just decided to retain the current design before seriously examining all alternatives. The hammer and sickle logo should always remain an important part of Aeroflot's heritage -- in history books, where it belongs.

[Edited 2003-04-17 20:24:44]
 
747-451
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Fri Apr 18, 2003 3:50 am

Hey, it's their airline, and they can choose what they would like. Symbolism is just that and quite frankly, there are more important things to worry about.

As far as SAA, their previous logo (Springbok) had no overtone at all to minority rule. It was just a pleasant livery; and they replaced it with another tasteful pleasant livery.

 
LMP737
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Fri Apr 18, 2003 6:51 am

Aerokiwi:

Your analogy about the USA and the UK is not exactly the best one I've heard. If you are wondering why some people feel strongly about the hammer and sickle may I recommend a bit of reading for you.

The Black Book of Communism
The Unquiet Ghost
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:44 am

Perhaps then, LMP737, you should consider opinion from outside of the United States. Communism was hardly the shining light of humanity, but just because you are living in comfort, it doesn't mean that the American way is that great either.

Britain, France, the United States, Japan and even my home country, New Zealand, have screwed over other countries in the past. Some moreso than others. Yet nobody questions their symbols because most of it happened so long ago and they are now "good, obedient societies now that follow the one-true-way". Communism, however, is still fresh in the mind.

I could throw back at you a thousand books against 'imperialist' America and its unforgivable interference in foreign lands that will one day come back to haunt it, but I'm not going to. If western airlines are entitled to their symbols, then so are all the others.

Perhaps a little self-reflection before abusing other people's right to express themselves through symbols. Hypocrisy is not a virtue, pity its so common.
 
Guest

RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:25 am

"If western airlines are entitled to their symbols, then so are all the others."

But most airlines don't have political symbols in their logos. Many feature national symbols and there is no reason why Aeroflot shouldn't either; for example, the puck:graphique
proposal, which I really like, incorporates a wonderful rendition of the Russian flag.

The hammer and sickle design, on the other hand, is no longer a national symbol (it isn't found on the Russian flag, its coat-of-arms, etc.); it is a political one, representing, consciously or not, a specific ideology, a failed political system, and a collapsed superstate. While it is acceptable to many people, it is offensive to many others, so it is controversial by definition. How many other airlines have undisguised political (as opposed to national) symbols as their logos, let alone symbols widely associated with oppression?

Now, anyone has the right to display such a logo, but I don't understand why a major airline seeking to improve its image would choose to retain a divisive reminder of a troubled past, irrelevant to today's Russia, instead of adopting a brand new logo -- unburdened by history and free of controversy -- that would represent that country's bright future.
 
LMP737
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:37 am

Aerokiwi:

What I find interesting is that you almost never hear anyone making the argument "The Nazis were bad, but xyz country has done some bad things itself." Why, because one would look like a complete fool doing so.

Then why is it "acceptable" to make the argument in regards to communism and say the USA or other countries. Whatever sins the USA has committed they are NOTHING compared to the amount of suffering imposed by communist dictatorships.

By the way, when have I abused anyone's right to express themselves through symbols?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:03 am

Flags are political symbols. As well as national. Birds (eg. the bald eagle) is a national symbol, representing a political sytem. The two cannot be untangled. Yet these are just 2 examples that have been used by airlines all over the world as their corporate logos, with little or no controversy.

And notice that the vast majority of those opposed to the hammer and sickle on this site are American. Interesting. I guess the concept of freedom of expression for all people is only acceptable to you if it doesn't offend you. Not surprising really. Heaven forbid anybody who dares to criticise American symbols.

But there is little debate in arguing this when the coined response is, "they killed millions, therefore, they're bad and we're good." The argument is so black and white it's ridiculous. Still, when people think the world to swirls only around you and your country, I guess it's difficult to take a more global, reasoned perspective.

Aeroflot has the right to do as it wishes. It's called freedom of expression. I'm sure someone will argue that it doesn't apply to former enemies. But that will just reflect on their level of mentality. I hope Aeroflot has a successful future as they appear to be rebuilding quite well. I believe they even made a substantial profit last year. Anyone know what it was?
 
LMP737
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:00 pm

Aerokiwi:

Let me tell you a little story. Before the revolution my family left Russia. My grandfather had two older half brothers and an older half sister. The two half brothers decided to stay in Russia. For a while my great aunt wrote to her two half brothers in Russia. Then all contact stoped. This was around the time Stalin was on one of his rampages. No one in my family knows what happened to the two. Chances are they ended up in the gulag and died there. Afterall, anyone recieving letters from the west was probably a spy.

So excuse me if I view the hammer and sickle with disdain.

"I guess the concept of freedom of expression for all people is only acceptable to you if it does'nt offend you."

I'm confused here, if I disagree with your viewpoint I'm accused of abusing someons right of self-expression (which is complete non-sense). Sounds to me your trying to shame those with opposing view points into being silent.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
delta-flyer
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:09 pm

Aerokiwi....Are you saying that Americans shouldn't express their opinions when they disagree with others? That Americans have a low mentality because they are critical of the actions of others? No one is trying to stop Aeroflot from doing what they wish -- we can't, anyway, even if we wanted to.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
cicadajet
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:19 pm

Its a rather attractive Logo.

The symbol seems to mean different things to different people. Its got wings on it though...to me that means Aeroflot, and yes, I agree with jwenting - they ought to have a link to their past.

Tom
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Fri Apr 18, 2003 1:01 pm

Certainly everybody has the right to voice their opinion, just as long as they are prepared to hear those of others. Hence, the entire reason for the existence of this forum.

And of course Americans, even if they (and I don't mean to generalise) have an opinion contrary to every other living being on the planet, have a right to argue their views. If you believe that the hammer and sickle logo is offensive for whatever reason, and should not be used, then fine. But when someone criticises this you believe this to be an infringement on your rights.

Yet doesn't this reveal the truly bizarre nature of this argument? Your condemnation of a sovereign nation and its peoples' symbols and demands that it/they not be used, is surely a form of restricting their freedom to speak and use their symbols as they wish, is it not? So while criticism of your opinion is intolerable and restricting, your criticism of others is not? I don't think so.

Abuse comes in several forms. One way is to abuse something in the sense of using it to ones own advantage. Another is to hurl offensive diatribe at it.

Delta-flyer: No, I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter what nationality. I was just trying to understand why so much of the fierce opposition to the logo is coming from US members of this forum. Could it be leftover hatred from the Soviet Union's greatest enemy? Methinks, yes.

And quite frankly, it's only a little scribble. Surely there are more important things to get violently opposed to than a few lines and a couple of circles. "Priority recognition", I think it's called
 
vafi88
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RE: Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo

Fri Apr 18, 2003 1:28 pm

I don't see how anyone can compare the Nazi regime to USSR. I lived in USSR until its' breakup and for a few years after. Russian people are NOT offended by the logo, the Hammer and Sickle do not represent death or threat, or harsh times, they, once looked upon by an old Russian, do not make him shake and lower his head. It's a symbol, deal with it.


Yes, USSR was communist, so what? Their Airline was the largest before the breakup when they were split into many other airlines, they are not the Largest, but sure one of the largest.


Hey! Look over there!!! It's the confederate flag....The Southern flag which stood for Racism in the Civil war....what about that???
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.