Will AirTran Retrofit The 717-231 Aircraft

BR715-A1-30 · Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:40 pm

This question is aimed at those who know more about AirTran than I do. I have, since Feb 2003, flown on 2 of the 717-231 aircraft, and they had the TWA coach seats, but the Biz Class seats were TWA Leather, with Fabric strung out on them. My question is Are these planes going to be retrofitted with AirTran interiors, or are they going to keep them how they are?

If they are going to retrofit these planes, is there a scheduled date when this is supposed to occur?

Flyer732 · Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:42 pm

No.
uhhh...no.

Ryan

BR715-A1-30 · Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:48 pm

AND WHY NOT!?!?!?!? Big grin

LOL!

travatl · Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:02 am

No -

It was a package deal, and AirTran never spends more money than it has to. Besides, those interiors are nicer than the standard AirTran interior...and most pax would never notice the difference....

Travis

747-451 · Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:33 am

They will refit the interior as soon as someone can get to a junkyard near JFK / KJFK), USA - New York">JFK and rips ome seats out of some old wrecked Checker cabs... Since THY has no more clapped out DC-9's to sell.

[Edited 2003-04-17 17:34:07]

AA737-823 · Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:50 am

Boy, those interiors sure were nice. I thought TWA's 717's were some of the most comfortable narrowbodies I had flown in. And rumor has it that AirTran's seats are... cheap.

R

m717 · Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:55 am

AirTran -- profitable
TWA -- bankrupt
AA -- on the brink

You do the math. Call it whatever you like.

gr8slvrflt · Fri Apr 18, 2003 1:03 am

The AirTran Business Class seats are wider and much more comfortable than the former TWA seats. The AirTran Coach seats are also more comfortable. However, the TWA seats do seem to be of higher quality and will probably last longer. The AirTran tray-tables, in particular, are already quite troublesome. BTW, ther was nothing wrong with the old THY seats.

BR715-A1-30 · Fri Apr 18, 2003 1:28 am

Don't get me wrong guys, I love the TWA seats. I like them better than the AirTran seats. I was hoping they wouldn't change them. That is what I was asking.

BR715-A1-30 · Fri Apr 18, 2003 1:29 am

They will refit the interior as soon as someone can get to a junkyard near JFK / KJFK), USA - New York">JFK and rips ome seats out of some old wrecked Checker cabs... Since THY has no more clapped out DC-9's to sell.

Huh???

rumorboy · Fri Apr 18, 2003 2:05 am

The question should be what seats are they going to have on those Ryan A320s, business class and coach.

Hopefully they will be comfortable for those long flights.

747-451 · Fri Apr 18, 2003 2:54 am

They will refit the interior as soon as someone can get to a junkyard near and rips ome seats out of some old wrecked Checker cabs... Since THY has no more clapped out DC-9's to sell.

AirTran's previous incarnation, the disgusting Value Jet, purchased a few run out DC-9's and a bunch of worn out engins from THY and one of those engines were implicated in an accident where there was a fire, and injuries in ATL in 1996. Since "value" (doing stuff on the "cheaP") permiated VJ, it appears that discipline continues since they didn't refurbish the 717-231's in their own specification Insane

.

m717 · Fri Apr 18, 2003 3:01 am

747-451,

Yep. You make a lot of sense. That's what I would do. Spend more money to replace a nicer interior. Money is being spent to bring the aircraft operationally to AirTran's specs, which is where it really matters. But, thanks for your continued concern. Things are moving along here quite nicely without you, however.

[Edited 2003-04-17 20:04:47]

AA737-823 · Fri Apr 18, 2003 3:48 am

Dude, M717, I don't think anyone here is bashing AirTran. The rumor was that their seats were rather cheap, and in looking at cabin photos, they certainly look... of an earlier design than today's modern coach seats. I am not talking fabric, I am talking contour.

I suspect AirTran would be doing quite nicely without yourself as well.

It is FACT that they got those planes and engines from THY. Are you arguing that? Didn't think so. It is also FACT that the NTSB implicated the engines in the fire. Are you arguing that? Citing fact is not bashing an airline. And, as you so correctly point out, AirTran is doing fine. They don't need defense.

I think they should keep the classy TWA interiors. But then, I think TWA should still be in the air.

Also, what on earth did you mean by pointing out the following:

AirTran -- profitable
TWA -- bankrupt
AA -- on the brink

You do the math. Call it whatever you like.

Call what whatever we like? What does AA have to do with TWA or AirTran?

Maybe I am on drugs and don't know it, because I sure can't figure out where this topic ended up.

To restate my opinion, I think Tranny should keep the TWA interiors... why spend the extra bucks to swap perfectly good for perfectly good?

Good luck to F9.

R

m717 · Fri Apr 18, 2003 4:19 am

AA737-823,

747-451 was, has and will continue to "bash" AirTran, and my comments were directed at him. So, I'll leave it at that.

And I wish F9 (Frontier) good luck, also.

I wish the posters on this board good luck, also. I think I'll be taking my leave, now. I understand why few pilots post here. I think de727ups said it best. At any rate, y'all have fun now, ya hear.

travatl · Fri Apr 18, 2003 4:39 am

747-451 must be some bitter, cynical furloughed pilot that can't stand the fact that his airline is shrinking and AirTran is profitable, successful and growing. Let ValuJet go, dude! That was SEVEN years ago.... this is the wave of the future... if you don't like it...get out a line...there's plenty behind ya ready to spend the cash..

Travis

747-451 · Fri Apr 18, 2003 6:15 am

I'm not a pilot, nor work for Northwest. I am pleased that AirTran is doing well.

However, ValuJet has had several problems in the past, including the 1996 Atlanta fire which was on a plane equipped with materials from THY. That isn't bashing, it's a fact; and as a consumer I have a right to critique an airline that has a past that has been under FAA scrutiny; regardless of name change or merger.Too bad back then they didn't see fit to ensure "Money is being spent to bring the aircraft operationally to AirTran's specs, which is where it really matters"....again, not bashing--but being circumspect.

BR715-A1-30 · Fri Apr 18, 2003 6:29 am

Thanks to all of your replies. I can't wait to fly on another -231 with AirTran.

BTW -- My dad is flying on AirTran to TPA on 1910 on May 24, 2003. I hope he gets on a 717-231.

travatl · Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:36 am

However, ValuJet has had several problems in the past, including the 1996 Atlanta fire which was on a plane equipped with materials from THY. That isn't bashing, it's a fact; and as a consumer I have a right to critique an airline that has a past that has been under FAA scrutiny; regardless of name change or merger.

So in other words, you are completely ignorant of the airline industry? Thanks for sharing! Run an NTSB search, man....you'll find a lot more FAA "investigative scrutiny" than just AirTran. I'm so sick of you people that think you know something about aviation and toss your fly-brain knowledge around like it's the gospel. Turn off CNN dude, and read a book.

Travis

BR715-A1-30 · Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:28 am

Travatl, you are correct. In fact the uncontained engine failure (which Delta has had many many many) was a result of a TURKISH maintained engine. I am 100% positive that if Valujet knew how badly THY had maintained that engine, they would not have installed it. BTW -- The uncontained engine failure happened on June 8, 1995 Uncontained engine failures happen. it is something we can prevent, but nevertheless it happens. It didn't just happen on Valujet. Remember the Delta incident in PNS that KILLED 2 people? (I think 2).

Valujet made some mistakes, they have learned from their mistakes. Let's rest it at that.

AA737-823 · Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:53 am

Uncontained failure certainly do happen, and it is often tragic when those things occur.

However.... "If Valujet knew how badly THY had maintained that engine, they would not have installed it."

Isn't it their responsibility, BR715, to know what they are putting on their planes? Your statement is, I think, even more incriminating than any other. It's like saying they were ignorant of what they had in the air. It cost people their lives, and it cost Valujet their airplane.

I don't go out and buy a used car without having a mechanic look over it. I want to know as much as possible before I get in and drive away.

Travis... I don't know, I can't speak for 747-451. But he has a point. It happened. Just like flight 592 happened. People weren't being responsible. And it marred their reputation.

Maybe I am too PC (didn't think I would ever hear myself say that, as I am not that PC to begin with) but I don't think it's allright for one of us to insinuate that any other of us doesn't know anything about aviation. I myself have a lot to learn...

I like AirTran. I think the 717 is a magnificent plane. I have only flown it with TeeDub, but a 717 is a 717. I hope AirTran has many years of great service from them. I might fly them this summer, if the pricing is right. I hope I can get on a -231... although what is the likelihood of getting one out of DFW???

Yall have a great Easter weekend!
R

BR715-A1-30 · Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:04 am

although what is the likelihood of getting one out of DFW???

I dunno. But maybe this photo will give you an idea.
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=64582

N919AT was N2417F with TeeDub.

travatl · Fri Apr 18, 2003 4:26 pm

First - the engine failure was actually on an ex-Delta aircraft, not an ex-THY airplane.

And yes, even as a loyal, faithful, employee...... I will admit that although flight 592' ACCIDENT WAS NOT IN ANY WAY A DIRECT CAUSE OF THE VALUJET OPERATION, our operation was slipshod enough at the time to have contributed to an "injury accident". ValuJet was great, I had a great time being a part of it... but don't think for a minute that the airline was intentionally running an unsafe operation. It wasn't....

Travis

Guest · Fri Apr 18, 2003 5:05 pm

Are posters on airliners.net really that dense? Isn't it obvious that M717 is a pilot for AirTran?

M717: I’ve enjoyed reading your posts, and I hope you’ll continue to participate on airliners.net.

BR715-A1-30 · Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:03 pm

Travatl, I know Valujet wasn't INTENTIONALLY running an unsafe operation. (even if that wasn't directed at me) Lewis Jordan was really saddened when 592 crashed. I wish I would have had the chance to fly on them. Unfortunately I didn't know much about them until I was in school on May 13, 1996. You say it was great, I believe you. I have witnessed the same spunk you talk about in many AirTran employees. Even as a Loyal, Faithful, flyer, I will also admit that AirTran is not the BEST airline in the world, but they sure make me happy when I fly them, and they provide the cheapest fare to Atlanta when I go, on New planes, so I think I will take this opportunity, and fly. I hope maybe one day you are my flight attendant, and I can watch you work.

747-451 · Sat Apr 19, 2003 1:50 am

Travatl;

"I am 100% positive that if Valujet knew how badly THY had maintained that engine, they would not have installed it"

According the the NTSB report AAR-96-03, there were many lapses in the record keeping and procedures of VJ and THY and they and their agent who actually evaluated and inspected the equipment should have been circumspect.

I am very well aware that many airlines have been under scrutiny for safety viloations and fines, some very big names and for BIG problems. However, there were several major accidents in a very short amount of time (note, Tower was in operation at the time Smile

) . And the conclusions drawn by the NTSB were disturbing as well-and in the matter of 592, VJ was not at fault, but they were taken to task about their auditing proceedures of their suppliers, namely Sabretech.

"First - the engine failure was actually on an ex-Delta aircraft, not an ex-THY airplane."

According the the NTSB report I cite, the airframe was an ex-Delta plane, but the engine was purchased from THY (the THY sale was for several planes, spare parts and several more spare engines) and installed on that aircraft during maintenance procedures.

"but don't think for a minute that the airline was intentionally running an unsafe operation."

That was never in question. NO airline EVER wishes to compromise themselves. But airlines are as good as their suppliers and their ability to supervise them.

Travis,

Before you accuse me of watching too much CNN, you shouldn't be so glib. I have flown over 1 million miles for business and pleasure and aviation is my hobby. (I am a mathemetican and network manager by trade and I worked ubtil 9/11 for an insurance company who re-insured insurers who underwrote aviation hull policies. I had access to all sorts of statistical data regarding commercial aviation) . VJ made some apalling mistakes.

747-451

srbmod · Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:56 am

The main problem that Valujet had at the time of 592 was that they grew so fast (they went from 3 planes in Oct of 1993 to well over 50+ in less than 3 years) and in that rush some corners were bound to get cut (not intentionally, but even the large airlines pencil whip mechanics to keep planes in service). The explosive expansion was problematic, because they were adding planes as quick as they could, essentially slapping on a coat of paint on them and putting them in service without doing any thorough MX inspections. The demand keep exceeding the supply, so Valujet got a/c from just about everywhere (ex-Swissair, Alitalia, British Midland, Austrian, THY, Delta, SAS, and others) just so they could keep up with the growing demand for seats on their flights. The THY a/c were problematic because THY isn't exactly known for great MX practices, and Valujet wasn't the only airline to suffer MX difficulties with ex-THY a/c and parts. Would have many of the incidents at Valujet had happened if they would have been able to get 737s instead of DC-9 at the start, who knows? 592 probably would have happened regardless of what a/c type Valujet would have flown; 592 can really be pinned down to a breakdown in training. That ramper @ MIA should have known that oxygen containers are HAZMAT (empty or not); Sabretech knew that they shouldn't have sent those containers COMAT; Valujet can be blamed as well, since Sabretech claimed they had shipped oxygen generators COMAT on other Valujet flights, which definitely signifies a training breakdown in the cockpit, because a pilot should know better than to knowingly allow HAZMAT onboard a passenger flight. One little word permanently changed a lot of lives: EMPTY. On the COMAT manifest, the generators were written up as "OXY Generators (Empty)".

BR715-A1-30 · Sun Apr 20, 2003 1:53 pm

Srbmod. You hit the nail on the head so hard I saw a spark fly from it. Big grin

Thanks for that. You answered a question of mine before I even asked it. Smile

747-451 · Tue Apr 22, 2003 1:25 am

SBRMOD;

Excellent clarifiactions on 592, the THY affair and the quick expansion issues!

-451

Will AirTran Retrofit The 717-231 Aircraft

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