danialanwar
Posts: 420
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New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:43 pm

Due to German airspace restrictions, flight arriving at ZRH between 6 and 7am are forced to land on Rwy 28 (short & no ILS). Read somewhere that it's too short to handle the 744. Does SQ therefore delay its flights into ZRH - or have they other plans?
Best Business Class: Royal Brunei. Best Economy: Singapore Airlines. First: please send money first!
 
aviationmaster
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 12:58 am

Runway 28 is capable of handling long haul jets only when the runway is dry and the weather is good. I have seen SAA's 747s landing at R28.
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © PixAir

This photo shows a MD-11 landing on Runway 28.
 
Unique
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 2:15 pm

Danialanwar, runway 28 can basically handle all aircraft types. It's purely up to the captain to decide if he'll be able to bring his machine down and land safely.
Until 17th July, it's no problem to "divert" to rwy14 or rwy16 for that reason. After 17th July, the germans don't allow any landings on rwy14 or 16 for any reason other than bad visibility. That means if a captain is unable to accept rwy28, he is diverting to BSL, GVA, MUC, FRA, STR, you name it!
This is what I call discrimination. Thank you very much, Mr Transport Minister, for arranging such a stupid and unrealistic deal!!!
 
Snoopy
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 2:27 pm

Unique, my understanding is that the Germans imposed these latest restrictions on a unilateral basis.

But I think that it is rather ironic that most of these guys that live over the border in Germany use Zurich airport when they leave on vacation!
 
saab2000
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 4:08 pm

I will agree with the last two posts 100%!! This is nothing other than discrimination of the worst kind. I wish there were a way to sanction the German companies which fly into ZRH for this absurd action.

Because of the actions of a handful of anti-aviation activists, all of us who work in and out of ZRH have to pay the price!! This includes the massive delays EVERY NIGHT starting at about 20:30 because of the conflicts in arrivals and departures. If we were allowed to continue normal operations there would be a less holding at EKRIT and the noise would be done sooner.

I really have zero patience for these so-called "socially responsible green" types. They live near the airport by choice and they benefit from it too!!

 Pissed

The only positive for me is that I fly the Saab 2000 and we can use 28 for departures after 2100 local time.
smrtrthnu
 
Snoopy
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 4:26 pm

The great scam is that a lot of these people moved into these areas because rents/property prices are cheap because of airplane noise and then they have the gall to complain.

I wonder what will happen if landlords start increasing rents because the noise has gone and the area is more attractive. You can bet your life these people will be squealing like piglets....
 
aviationmaster
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 6:40 pm

But this new approach hasn't even been ratified 100% here in Switzerland and in Germany, so what I think is that they (Swiss authorities) should just ignore the Germans.
 
Unique
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:14 pm

AviationMaster, politicians in Berne to ignore the Germans? I wish I could agree!!! Berne is far away from the jet engine noise hence they will never give in. It's just a shame!
Holding patterns will have to be moved from South Germany into Switzerland, hopefully into the region of Berne. I wonder if that would help to wake up politicians...
I can only repeat myself: 700 people in Hohentengen and surroundings have less noise now, but 10000 additional people east of ZRH airport and soon many thousands more south of the airport are additionally "blessed" with noise! Where the hell is justice?
Mr Leuenberger, it's your canton you are punishing, and the whole economy with it!
Saab2000, soon your piloted aircraft will be gone hence runway28 will soon become a landing runway only on weekends!

The germans state that they are not discriminating the airport as the same number of flights can be operated, just on other runways. The operational point of view is completely different, but I understand, those living in Hohentengen are all aviation experts, just because they moved there a few months ago!?? Hahaha...!!!

What about their public holidays? What about the additional car traffic when they all invade cheap Switzerland for their shopping tours? No further comment on this...
 
Unique
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 2:11 am

Just got a little emotional, sorry...

I've heard voices asking for the implementation of approaches Kai Tak style, i.e. approaching along the river Rhine and turning sharply for final approach in order not to touch german airspace.

I'm definitely against that, as otherwise, the Germans will get what they want! NO WAY!

The Chief Operations Officer of ZRH Airport will not compromize safety by allowing anything like that. If the swiss politicians are not doing anything against these measures, the airlines will be forced to divert to other airports when weather does not allow landings on rwy28. Germany always stated that it does not intend to jeopardize swiss economy, but that will exactly be the result. Maybe then, politicians will climb down from their trees and finally do something. I personally doubt, however, as it seems that we only have cowards in the parliament. Shame on us to have voted for these people!

A few days ago, a Cessna Citation missed the runway and landed in the grass. Cause apparently was a micro downburst of wind, pushing the aircraft away from the runway and towards the ground. Imagine if that would have happened if the aircraft would have approached rwy34. It would have crashed into aircraft stands or one of the big hangars. Thanks a lot, Germany!

Before that happens, I request our politicians to immediately take the necessary steps!

That was slightly off topic, I'm sorry!

SQ plus many other longhaul carriers into ZRH would probably not delay their arrival, they would rather CANCEL! Thanks again, Germany!
 
Unique
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 2:07 pm

Any voices from Switzerland AND Germany?
 
ILOVEA340
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 4:26 pm

What bothers me is that I get the idea the germans think the airport is only serving the swiss. In fact it is less than an hour from the German border and I constantly see plenty of germans departing from ZRH rather than deal with a long treck to Stuttgart of the horrible frequencies at Friedrichshafen.

I have, more than 5 times been on a flight where a go around was needed due to the problems with runway 28, The runway is just not suitable for large and heavy aircraft.

I had incoming friends who were once diverted to BSL due to weather at ZRH, and while it worked out for them as BSL was their final destination it was horrible for the scores of pax who needed to eaither deplane in ZRH of meet conection flights. (not the BSL is a bad airport, its just not where most people are heading).
 
aviationmaster
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 4:51 pm

My personal views of what Bern should have or should do:

-Included this topic when they signed the new trade agreements with the EU.
-or they should go to the EU.
-They should lower the amount of german trucks driving in and out of Switzerland.
 
SR3496
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:50 pm

Lower only the amount of German trucks driving through Switzerland would be a discrimination as well. I think we don't want to be as stupid as the Germans, do we? I definitely don't.

cu, bk
 
Unique
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:17 pm

Well, the truck thing would be one solution even though I also feel that this is not the solution!

Quite some time ago, each and every country has signed an agreement to grant each other the rights to overfly its territory. Suddently, Germany does not want to remember that as they say, landing traffic is different to overflying traffic. Do we have any experts in this forum for this?

Even though Switzerland is not a member of the European Union, Switzerland is equally treated like the other EU nations in terms of aviation since 1st June last year.

Just recently, FRA as well as MUC had their nightban hours cut by the very same Government asking ZRH to extend its nightban hours. I wonder what the population near the airports of FRA and MUC think of that!

Swiss ATC is controlling some parts of German airspace since decades. The german government now suddently wants their own ATC to control this airspace even though german ATC cannot switch over that quick, making it more dangerous for landing traffic as well as overflying traffic (DHL/Bashkirian mid air collision of last year has nothing to do with this problem).

I really hope that swiss politicians stay firm and do not cower of some unrealistic and idle threats!
 
aviationmaster
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:37 pm

Which political party is currently in control of southern Germany?
 
VASI
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:57 am

Well, I am a German too and I live also in the southern part (close to Stuttgart). I was closely following up this story and the way how this evolved deeply dissappoints me.

First of all I am also a PPL-A pilot with CVFR. I strongly believe that we
( those men and women who participate ind the GA scene) are getting hunted here in Germany. Restrictions are enforced almost everywhere, the "General Aviation" is seen as something which only rich people can afford, as something which is more or less superfluous and therefore attracting the jealousy of the population.

This behaviour can also be found in the region of "Hohentengen". Of course this is something else than the matter described above. As I am in this region quite often I went there for one day to check by myself of how disturbing this aircraft noise really is. I came to the conclusion that a car, a motorcycle or a truck is creating much more noise than the approaching aircraft. If you also compare the numbers of vehicles passing by on the road and the planes over your head whispering into ZRH, then it also should be clear what a real nuisance is.

Not the planes!!! In my eyes this is just the typical German stubborn pettiness you can find anywhere here. Sorry for this, but it is the behaviour in my eyes. When those guys complaining come back from their holidays into ZRH they are happy to arrive on time ond not to get diverted. Also they do not care about the folks living in the approach zone.

One more thing is the approach to RWY 28. I've flown it twice with "blindhood" as a training procedure on a C172 with an experienced flight instructor. I have to say that I got totally sweat after finishing that, the approach is very demanding in my eyes, especially for much faster and heavier aircraft.

The last point: A friend of mine is a B737 Captain flying frequently to Zurich. He also points out, that the regulation is totally STUPID, but part of the daily political buiness and some guys who want to gain votes and show that their strength is on their side!

By the way, ZRH is my favouite airport. Also I can imagine the foundation of a "Pro Hohentengen approach" seriously!

VASI
 
saab2000
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:26 am

I am a pilot at SWISS. The VOR/DME approach to 28 is a toughy. But it is certainly flyable. But for the larger, heavier planes the landing, not the approach, on 28 is what makes you sweat. The Saab has the best short field performance in our fleet so it is no problem. I have a friend who flies the MD-11 and he told me that he basically refuses to land on 28. It is simply too short to be safe. The displaced threshhold shortens the available landing distance very considerably.

Of course, 999 times out of 1000 it will work out, but that 1000th time is the bad one and the pilot will be blamed - not the politician who made him land there. And so he refuses to land there. Good for him.

The noise issue here in ZRH is absolutely absurd. You are totally correct that trains and trucks are more disturbing than the airplanes. I have been told that there is no ILS to 28 because of "political reasons". There is also no approach to 34 or 32 for "political reasons. It is ridiculous and I wish that some pro-economy, pro-aviation politicians would get elected and make it happen. Instead we get these candy-ass SP and candy-ass SVP who both hate the airlines for different reasons.

I guess that this absurd noise issue is something that even ex-Crossair and ex-Swissair pilots might agree about!!! That is a beginning!!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
smrtrthnu
 
VASI
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:53 am

SAAB 2000, as a result of the Avro RJ 85 crash I heard that approaches to RWY 28 should only be allowed under certain revised minimums. Do you know if this already happened?

Also I wonder why the politicians are so extremely short sighted regarding this tragic event. They should have learned the lesson. What about the Swiss pilot union (in Germany "Vereinigung Cockpit"), did they put some pressure on the responsible guys???

I guess this is a never ending story until the next disaster!

VASI
 
Unique
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:06 am

VASI, unions in Switzerland have no power at all! Very unfortunate for this issue!

Germany allows landings from the North as soon as the minimum visibility is lower than 4500ft. That's until 16th July 2003. After that date, no landings for visibility reason is accepted from the North anymore! As a pilot, you have two "choices": you either divert or risk an approach. Guess what will any pilot choose...

Thanks for pointing out the actual noise level at Hohentengen! I deliberately did not want to come to that point as I have never been there (I simply refuse to visit Hohentengen), but I'm glad that somebody who has been there finds cars more noisy than the approaching aircraft!
 
avion
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:03 am

Hi

The new regulation is like a death sentence for ZRH. Since not even in bad visibility landings from the north are allowed. Germany really has nothing to complain about. Their trucks go thru our country and pollute big time, so why is it not okay for our planes to cross a comparatively small stretch of german fields. Most of the approach goes over fields and it is the best approach route because there is really no one there.

Tom
 
Unique
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 2:38 pm

Tom, my speech...  Big thumbs up Thanks for the support!
 
andyhunt
Crew
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:11 pm

Guys,

What exactly are the restrictions that are now in place........from what I know, and I'm somewhat guessing:

weekends............no northerly arrivals before 0900.
what about weekdays
and public holidays???

Thanks in advance!

Andrew
Full frame always beats post processing
 
Unique
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:15 pm

Andrew, that's valid until 16th July, after that, no more arrivals from the north on weekends and german public holidays! Unless something is done about it...
 
andyhunt
Crew
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:27 pm

Unique,

Even on weekdays.........no arrivals on 14 or 16 before 0900...............???? Is that correct. If so then  Sad

Andrew
Full frame always beats post processing
 
Unique
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:38 pm

Andy, only on weekends and german public holidays! Weekdays, german airspace can be touched as per 7am until 8pm. Still  Sad
 
aviasian
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:03 pm

This sounds like the situation faced by Singapore when Malaysia and Indonesia refused to permit the Concorde through their airspace on the Bahrain-Singapore sector!

Perhaps for the long-term viability of the airport, a different location should be identified for a new airport to serve Switzerland.

KC Sim
Bangkok
 
godbless
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:40 pm

I can not really say that much to this matter since I live too far in the north of Germany to have insight into what has been going on concerning the approach to Zürich over German territory.
All that I can say is that I support every single post written above.
On the other hand is does surprise me that A German government would even take such a move since usually if anything harms anybody else than Germans than don't even think about it. If you take a look at our Autobahns, and from all countries I have seen we by far have the best ones around! Germany is a transit-country so we are flooded by people from all across Europe causing traffic-jams to an extent that it does the German economy no good but where are the measures? The greens would never accept adding a few lanes to cope with the traffic nor would anybody ever think about charging people who never paid any taxes which paid for the road they drive on.
If not done on a subject that really needs some work done and that effects thousands and thousands of people than why with an airport that makes hardly any noise?!? I believe it's more "fun" to hear a 747 fly over your house every once in a while (and the planes usually are not the biggest and loudest...) than having constant noise caused by cars and trucks.

I don't want to go too deep into political measures being taken but I will take a very touchy approach now anyways.
You probably all know the "German" position towards America about the war in Iraq. Schröder won the elections by telling the people here that he is against the war (well who cares?!? Nobody asked you anyways!) and now that the war is over he notices the harm he done to the German economy (we won't earn a cent on rebuilding the country). I am not saying that Germany should have sent troops to bomb Saddam out of office (I admit I would have...) but a little more realistic world-view would have probably helped strengthen the German opinion and saved an increased downturn of our export oriented economy. If you turn a world power against you than don't expect them to buy your goods!
So what I really want to say is that I would support any Swiss action that would in return harm the German (which is also my economy...). This nation has not desered any better, sadly.
Shame on my country!

Max
 
aviationmaster
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:07 pm

What would the German Gov. do if ZRH bound aircraft still approach Runway 14 after July 16th (in other words not complying with the "Staatsvertrag")? I think one of the best solutions is the truck idea also if it would make us look stupid, or go to the EU.
 
Unique
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 1:19 am

ATC is not allowed to guide aircraft into ZRH from the north as the Federal Office of Civil Aviation in Berne (ATC is reporting directly to them) tell them not to do so! It's a scandal! The parliament has shot down this agreement but FOCA is still acting like it was not the case!

Many thousands have now raised their voices against the new approach procedures and it seems that slowly, politicians are waking up and think of maybe doing something.

Too many self-appointed aviation experts of politicians and journalists now talk against each other. It's a typical swiss behaviour, it's a shame!

I wonder what LUX would do if the germans taste this behaviour of theirs. No aircraft to approach LUX over another country...

Aviasian, building a new airport in Switzerland is simply not possible for a) political reasons and b) there is just no space! The flat country is overpopulated while in the mountains, no airport can be built.
 
saab2000
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:54 am

I had the pleasure of flying the 28 VOR/DME approach tonight. Actually, it was a pleasure. Normally when I fly this approach it is incredibly turbulent because of the westerly wind conditions. Tonight it was relatively calm.

It is also a pleasure because it is good to sometimes fly something more challenging than an ILS. The 28 approach requires you to think. There are 2 VORs involved, several steps, the VDP, etc... and the constant chatter on ATC.

Having said that, I think it is scandelous that there is no ILS on 28. There has already been one crash and there is no real reason not to have an ILS. As I said before, there is also no reason not to have an ILS to 32 and/or 34.

It is disgusting that a few hundred people in southern Germany are allowed to negatively influence the livelyhood of thousands of people in Switzerland. I think that flights of German registered aircraft to MUC and STR should not be given descent clearances over CH airspace until this fiasco is resolved. That way they will not cause any further delays of our planes into ZRH. Those are the two airports that are supposed to benefit from this ban of flights into ZRH.
smrtrthnu
 
Unique
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 2:48 pm

Saab2000, the ILS thing is highly political! Both Kloten and Glattbrugg have not approved an installation of an ILS hence it's delayed for several years.

With the Operational Concept of the Airport, granted by FOCA, the approaches are all planned from the north, so why spending a lot of money to install an ILS? That's exactly one of the argument from Germany, i.e. the airport should have had installed the ILS years ago.

The crash you mentioned was indeed very sad, even though it was human error! You as a pilot know very well that the VOR DME approach is safe, otherwise it would not be published in the charts.

If Germany would not be so narrow-minded, approaches on Rwy28 would not even be an option.

Politicians who cry out now and want to jeopardize the airport will cry out even louder when lots of jobs will be lost! Wait and hear...
 
saab2000
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:04 pm

Unique,

I agree that the approach is not unsafe if it is flown correctly. Until the final report comes out about the Crossair crash 18 months ago anything else is speculation. But I will admit is looks like human error. He was hundreds of feet below his step.

But... having said that, the approach in westerly wind conditions is a hell of an approach. It is a very turbulent approach and requires a lot of concentration to fly correctly. Some airplanes can fly it with the FMS and program the glide path. In the Saab 2000 you may not and cannot do this. It is flown conventionally. This is not difficult and there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to go below minimums, but it does require a lot of concentration with the usual very strong turbulence.

BTW, does it matter if Kloten and Glattbrugg have not approved an ILS to 28? Glattbrugg is not affected at all, and like I said before in another post Kloten would not exist, or would just be a really small village, without the airport. How many of those complainers in Kloten lived there before the airport was there? How many of them NEVER use the airport? Not very many.

Why is it that people can take advantage of the cheap rents near the airport and then complain about the "noise" of the airport?
smrtrthnu
 
MD-11 forever
Posts: 550
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:51 pm

I agree with you 1000% percent Saab2000! This wekend I drove from Bassersdorf to Kloten, and was very amazed to see how many new houses are newly built or due to be built right below the approach path!! This is really sick. On one hand the local governments fight against the noise emissions, and on the other hand, while being aware of the problem, still issue permissions to build new houses right there!!!

Another point is, the actual noise of approaching airplanes (even a 744) are lower than the noise of the railway running from Zurich Airport toward Winterthur, but I never heard any complaints aginst the railway..........

Cheers, Thomas
 
Unique
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Wed Apr 23, 2003 12:41 am

Saab2000 and MD-11 forever, I couldn't agree more with both of you!!!

With Glattbrugg against an ILS installation, I certainly meant ILS Rwy34!

It's just pathetic what's going on here!

A few weeks ago, I came back from my holidays and I took the train back home from the airport. When passing Bassersdorf, I also saw brand new homes right underneath the approach path and one one side was the railway line and on the other side was the road! Exactly those people buying these houses start to complain after they have moved in.
In a way, I can understand them complaining about the planes. The noise is way above the "noise" heard on the german-swiss border. But on the other hand, they must have know about the airport and approaching planes when decided to buy their homes in Bassersdorf. Otherwise they acted grossly negligent.

Some of these people even work at the airport, and that's what makes me mad! I also like to have a peaceful evening after a hard days work at the airport but I'm not complaining about a few aircraft when next to my house, trains are running day and night! They have still chosen themselves to live where they live.

Aaaarrrrrrgggghhh!!!!  Pissed  Pissed
 
aviationmaster
Posts: 2151
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RE: New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?

Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:57 am

One thing I was thinking about, if most of the planes have to divert to Stuttgart or Munich, I would like to see how the people that were complaining about ZRH will handle those aircrafts and the noise they will make.

Christian