EverettWA
Topic Author
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 1999 12:28 pm

TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 1:42 am

How are the following flights operated in terms of radar coverage, diversion opportunities etc?

SYD-AKL-SCL (LAN)
PER-JNB (SAA, maybe also QF)
CPT-EZE (MAS)

Hundreds of aircraft fly across the northern Atlantic everyday, but these seem to be the only routes (and not much frequency either) across the southern Pacific, Atlantic, and Indian Oceans. They are oddball routes, and I am curious as to their operational details...

Thank you
 
airplanetire
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:59 am

I wonder that myself. Keep in mind that SCL-AKL-SYD and PER-JNB are operated by the A340 and 747, respectively. Those are four engined aircraft, as you most certainly know, but I thought I'd just point it out. I still wonder where those would divert to, but a diversion point is not as crucial considering there would be 3 engines left instead of one if something went wrong. Now of course there are other problems that could arise. What do you do if a person starts to have a severe heart attack and you are 1500 miles from any diversion point? I guess all that can be done is to help the person. Do you know?

Something that struck me as odd is the CPT-EZE flight. I know that that flight is operated by a 772 and did know that. The thing that just occured to me though is this: SAA decided, among other reasons, to go with A340s instead of 777s because of getting ETOPS over the South Atlantic. I don't resent the fact that they bought A340s; I like those and 777s. It's just interesting that a big problem for SAA was ETOPS for the 777s over the South Atlantic, yet MAS flies 777s on those routes in question by SAA. Can you tell me more about this situation?

How many other oddball routes across the southern parts of oceans are there? Don't both Qantas and SAA fly between JNB and SYD? I can't think of any others.

Regards,
Airplanetire
 
desertjets
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:04 am

Just off the top of my head there are a fair number of suitable airports in the South Pacific between New Zealand and South America. Easter Island (IPC) and a handful of fields in American and French Samoa as well. The South Atlantic may well be another story.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
s.p.a.s.
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:10 am

Hi...

I´m almost sure that the CPT-EZE flight is made by a 747-400..

Also you guys forgot the JNB-GRU flight, operated by SAA..

For the radar coverage on the South Atlantic, there is none after the operational limit imposed by radar transmiters, and the comms are made using HF radios and conventional (based on ETA) control. Some of the ATC centers are Recife Oceanic, Montevideo and Buenos Aires, and from the African side, maybe (no charts right now.. later I give it 100% sure) Windhoek and Cape Town or J´bourg
"ad astra per aspera"
 
COAatIAH
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:35 am

Didn't Aerolineas Argentinas fly from Ushuaia to Auckland at one point?
 
Jj
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:09 am

Everybody seems to be forgetting the first airline to fly sheduled crossing south pacific: Aerolineas Argentinas. Teh flights started in 1980, the original route being Ezeiza-Rio Gallegos-Auckland (I'm not sure if this flight continued to Sidney, but I'm certain that at some point there was an arrangement with Ansett to fly the pax. coming from AR to australia.) Then the route was changed and the Sidney segment added? Don't know... but with the A340's the Rio Gallegos stop was eliminated, and to this day, AR coninues to fly to Auckland and Sidney.

Other airlines that did fly/currently fly on transatlantic/transpacific routes are:

TAAG: Luanda-Rio de Janeiro BOeing 747-300
Lufthansa: Buenos Aires- Dakar (stop at Sao Paulo?) DC-10
Aerolineas Argentinas: Buenos Aires-Dakar DeHavilland Comet IV
Qantas: Sydney- Auckland- Buenos Aires Boeing 747-400
Malaysian: Kuala Lumpur -Johannesburg (or Cape Town?)- Buenos Aires Md-11 and currently Boeing 747-400
South African: Johannesburg - Sao Paulo (or GIG?) and Cape Twon -Buenos Aires BOeing 747-200/400
Lan Chile Santiago -Auckland -Sydney and Santiago -Easter Island -Papeete Airbus 340 and on the papeete flights Boeing 767

Those are the ones I can remember of my head, there are surely a lot more. Perhaps VARIG has some transatlantic flights to africa?

I hope this helps you!
 
odie
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:25 am

MAS currently flies Kuala Lumpur - Johannesburg - Cape Town - Buenos Aires with a B747-400. I don't recall them flying with a B777 or MD-11. In fact, as far as I can remember, all of MAS's flight across the south Atlantic was flown with a B744. Previously, MAS flew to EZE using a B747-Combi, but since that was phased out in March 2002, it was flown with a B747-400 all pax configuration ever since. MAS is evaluating the use of a B777 instead of a B744 across the Atlantic but I guess they couldn't use the B777 due to ETOPS restrictions.
 
dutchjet
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:30 am

There are several diversion points in the southern oceans - such as the PPT, PGO, NAN, Cook Island, Easter Island in the Pacific, Maurtius, fields on the island of Madagascar, Reunion and the Comoros and other smaller islands in the Southern Indian Ocean, and also a few possibilities in the Southern Atlantic such as the Faklands. While some of these airports get a minimal amount of intercontinental traffic, they are all capable of handling a large airliner in an emergency situation. Also, dont forget their are military installations as well that can be used in an emergency.

Most interesting is Easter Island, which Lan Chile serves with 767s - as its a one runway airport, Lan Chile cannot send 2 flights out to Lan Chile at the same time - if the first were to get stuck on the runway due to an accident or another situation, the second flight would have no possibility of landing with the only alternate returning to Santiago or another airport on the mainland of South America.
 
Jj
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:33 am

Odie

I'm sure that for some time around 1997 or sometime there, the AMs flights were operated by MD-11's. In fact I can tell you that on one day, it was raining very ahrd, and one of their MD 11's left the runway. I went to Ezeiza to see it moved. And it wasn't a "one off flight". It was always an Md 11. Perhaps it was for just an year, or so.
 
odie
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:45 am

JJ: Sorry my bad. Didn't thought of those MD-11 years.
 
s.p.a.s.
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:55 am

Indeed MAS used to fly with the MD11 to EZE, actually, this route was most probably opened with the MD11 and later upgraded to the 747-400.

About Varig flights, yes they had a few SA crossings to Africa, besides J??bourg (flown until 1998/1999, more or less) also Abdijan and Monrovia come in mind without consulting. Some of the RG routes were part of the former Panair do Brazil network. Varig also had this Indian Ocean crossing, as they flew GRU-JNB-BKK-HKG and back, operated with the B747-400 and towards the end with MD11.

Speaking about Abidjan, MEA also flew GRU-ABJ-BEY during the mid-90??s using first 747-200s and later A310-300s. After MEA dropped the service, we had for a short time Bellview doing Lagos-GIG, with A300-600R.

About Falklands as ETOPS alternate for South Africa-South America flights, don??t think it is possible, as the islands are to much to the south and the ETOPS limit would have even greater than the 207 minutes used today in some routes across the Pacific.. Ascension Island could be an option, though.

Rgds,

Renato
"ad astra per aspera"
 
odie
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:01 am

S.p.a.s: MAS operated the MD-11 only for a couple of years, hence the upgrade.

PS: I meant didn't think of those MD-11 years instead of thought. Sorry for the English error.
 
FLYING MACHINE
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:13 am

Flying from Sydney to Johannesburg we pass first Tasmania and then the only landscape were icebergs not land or islands.
 
Jj
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:24 am

So MEA and Bellview both had flights to Brazil!? Interesting...
 
jasewgtn
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:26 am

Quote "They are oddball routes"

Just because they aren't trans-atlantic what makes them odd ball?
 
EverettWA
Topic Author
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 1999 12:28 pm

RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:02 am

JaseWGTN,

I used that term because there are so few such flights, not because I was condescending of the southern hemisphere. Thank you all for the replies, but I really wasn't referring to flights such as Brazil-Senegal, for the Ocean crossing there is really very short.

The reason I thought about this in the first place is because of the AKL-SCL flight. Because of the great circle routing, this flight must be heading south out of both airports, and swinging over Antarctica. In this case, no islands in the South Pacific, such as Isla de Pascua, would be of any use. Are there any military airfields in Antarctica that would be capable of handling an A340, for instance?
 
s.p.a.s.
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:15 am

EverettWA,

I don't have the actual routing for the flight, maybe if posting it at the tech/ops forum you can get some nice inputs, I guess at least one guy is an active pilot with Aerolineas Argentinas (B747Skipper).

On the other hand I was planning such a flight, actually Rio Gallegos - Aukland for the Flight Simulator, and I was using real world navigation charts. There are no airways over the south pole and one of the only airports available there is McMurdo Station, although the route doesn't overfly it. I can only imagine that after Patagonia until an island to the south of New Zealand the route must be a great circle one (or close at least) and after this island, which I don't recall the name by heart, the flight would join the airways system again.

Once again, maybe some people at the tech/ops forum is more familiar with this flights.

Rgds

Renato

@Jj: Yes, we had both here, and many years ago we also had (at Rio only) Iraqi Airways and Royal Air Maroc.
"ad astra per aspera"
 
Jj
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:19 am

You're right, how could I have forgotten of Iraqi!!!???? Didn't know of RAm, however.... uhhhh you get much more variety than we do here!!!!!!  Sad
 
ArgInMIA
Posts: 475
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:02 pm

I read somewhere that in the late 70's an Argentinian Air force Fokker F-28 made the first commercial jet landing in antartica.. in the Marambio base (ARG)

here are some pictures of the airplane in Antarticca



Alto.. Mucho mas alto.. hasta la cumbre
 
PerthGloryFan
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RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:56 pm

In addition to SAA's PER-JNB other non-stop trans Indian Ocean flights are:

Emirates PER-DXB B777
Air Mauritius PER-MRU A340 or B767; obviously different flight paths for the 4 engines v. two engine flights

Air New Zealand operate PER-AKL non-stop with B767; an "Indian-Pacific " routing.

And as FlyingMachine posted, QF's SYD-JNB non-stop is a real Southern Ocean effort.

PGF
 
Guest

RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Mon Apr 21, 2003 11:45 pm

How about this flight? I remember being at the airport in Lima, Peru one weekend morning in 1973 when an AF 707 arrived from Tokyo, via Papeete. They used to fly this route weekly, appoximately 10 hours per flight segment. As the passengers were deplaning onto the tarmac, the wind (which was blowing on-shore and from the direction of the port of Callao) had the unmistakable stench of rotting fish! I think that even if I had just arrived after a 22-hour trip from Tokyo, I would have marched right back on to that plane and flown back!
 
Jj
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 7:40 am

RE: TransOceanic Flights In The Southern Hemisphere

Tue Apr 22, 2003 6:18 am

With AR now planning tho start flights to Malvinas, wouldn't it be a more profitable thing to start flights to Marambio? I mean, there must bemany crazy touristis wanting to go to antartica? Perhaps just 1 weekly flight... maybe even a continuation of the Malvinas run!