Jumbolino
Topic Author
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:15 am

Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 2:41 am

Hello guys and girls,
now german lufthansa is dead for me.
I tried to book over Info flyway for 23.05. and 26.05. MUC-ZRH-MUC
and my profile says that I live in SWITZERLAND
I clicked on the 136.69 EUR online faire booking and he told me that I should playe a credit card number in my profile did so and tried again to buy 136.69 online faire and next page I didn't look it changed my faire WITHOUT any warnings into 302 CHF !!!! (approx 200 EUR)
now I called LH (hopefully the did a storno without payment but I riped my credit card away from my profile a second after) and they told me they cannot sell me a german fare (funny SNBA and FU could easily) because of law.
and I told them now LH is definitly dead for me !!!!!!!!!
that's fraud ripe 70 EUR so away from me (if I would put into a dummy german adress only for booking it would work he agreed with me, so they want that I make fraud ?)

angry, angry Jumbolino
 Pissed  Pissed  Pissed  Pissed  Pissed  Pissed (and my crying purse)
Kind Regards, Jutta.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 2:43 am

What they are doing is hardly fradulent.

What you would be doing is definitely fraudulent, but I doubt that they care.

N
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 2:46 am

Hi Jutta,

call LH again (+49-1803-336633), cancel the flight, change to adress in your profile and book again.

Patrick

Edit: Tell them that you have Frequent Traveller status, I am sure they will cancel your flight without a fee.

[Edited 2003-05-05 19:48:18]
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
Jumbolino
Topic Author
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:15 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 2:50 am

Hello Patrick,

Of course I cancelled the flight (but with my first calling, I'm not crazy)
but I'm not sure if they will credit anything like cancellation fee on my credit card (I riped it away from my profile, too but maybe they have it in the PNR record, fo course normally they have).

Jutta.

PS: with opodo I get the fare without changing my adress and swiss is only 3 EUR more expensive, so I wont support LH anymore.
Kind Regards, Jutta.
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 2:53 am

They have your credit card number in the PNR record but I am sure they will not credit you a fee because the booking was an "accident". Opodo is not bad, I found a great fare to JFK for next month on BA and I think that I will book it.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
Jumbolino
Topic Author
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:15 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 2:58 am

@Patrick
thanks for your email
BTW I was frequent flyer silver but meanwhile I have only a simple blue card
(the people which are threatened)

and OS (also in miles & more times) fraud was that they wont give me miles for flights operated by VO (apex fare) until I had no austrian adress in my profile (or better until I went to LH staff in DUS which was the ticket counter and told them the story so loud that the whole airport could hear it)

Jumbolino.

Kind Regards, Jutta.
 
Unique
Posts: 1621
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:48 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 4:17 am

Jumbolino, with all respect, did you really thoroughly read the instructions on the web page?

When I received my training on ticketing, that was basic to learn how to protect a country's homemarket. If you apply for a ZRH-MUC-ZRH ticket, I'm 100% sure that the fare will come out as CHF302. If you apply for a MUC-ZRH-MUC, you'll have to pay an addition in order to match the fare for ZRH-MUC-ZRH.

Maybe the person on the phone should have told you professionally so you'd understand and don't get angry.

I'm terribly sorry, Jumbolino, but as far as I can judge, LH is right...!
 
Jumbolino
Topic Author
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:15 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 4:29 am

@Unique
from my purse also this IS fraud and I changed my adress seconds ago due to the munich adress of my agency, now I'm a good german and can have german fares !

Jumbolino.

PS: and otherwise if you buy as german citizen ZRH-MUC-ZRH you have also to pay the swiss price I'm sure you know that - with or without IATA that's fraud. and they showed me the EUR rpice and I clicked on EUR price for buying so the could tell me the next page I cannot buy this but not forcing me a higher price without good readable letters that the will credit me 70 EUR more than I have clicked that's fraud be my friend.
Kind Regards, Jutta.
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 4:31 am

Even if the reason why they charged an additional €70 is correct, still than they have to display the alternate fare before they charge your credit card.

Regards
Frederic
 
Jumbolino
Topic Author
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:15 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 4:41 am

@Frederic
this would be a case for a good lawyer the displayed it in CHF below the side
(on the confirmation page where you have to say twice you want to buy normally that's only clicking it away, but since today I will look at it twice, third .... and don't trust anybody over 1)
and I ought nothing fraud and clicked buying without thinking that this isn't only changing currency (that was what I thought before)
normally they should tell you that this isn't the fare you wanted to book
(who has it's calculator beside when booking a flight ?) ok 1.5 is easy, but not when you think it's a good company that's ok .....

Jumbolino.
Kind Regards, Jutta.
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 4:44 am

Well id call this fraud. Why should Swiss people have to pay more for the exact same thing.

Tom
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
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RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 5:24 am

Question: if I as a Belgian want to buy a LH MUC-ZRH-MUC ticket, do I have to pay more than €136?

Regards
Frederic
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 5:33 am

Hi Frederic,

I am also a little bit confused but I understand it like that: You have to pay more when the billing address is outside Germany. Is this correct? Can someone confirm?

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
SR3496
Posts: 774
Joined: Sat May 06, 2000 8:21 pm

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 6:11 am

It doesn't matter what nationality you have...only the billing address is important. (everything else would be discrimination under Swiss law)
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6430
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 6:31 am

Billing address!!! Pure BS. When buying a ticket on the web using an internatinal credit card, then there is of course no billing address. Just like when you walk into an airline office and buy a ticket with cash.

It is so silly what LH is doing.

Are there any other airlines who are as silly as LH? Let us hear about that.

I haven't used LH for well over twenty years now, and after reading this it may last another twenty years.

Next thing would be that you pay double for a beer in a bar because the bartender doesn't like your nationality.

If Swiss, BA, Icelandair, AF or TAP begin acting similarly fraudently, then I will dump them immediately from my shopping list.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Jj
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 8:37 am

Guys don't get sooo angry. A lot of airlines do the same thing: They charge people living in the airline's country less than they do to foreign people: Last month I booked a flight on Varig and they charge dme more than they would have, had I bought through a Brazilian person. Other airlines doing it include: Aerolineas ARgentinas, Lan Chile, Lufthansa, SAS, etc...
 
Jumbolino
Topic Author
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:15 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 4:27 pm

@Frederic
yes, it's the billing adress and if you go in MUC to LH don't give them your M&M number and pay cash you have not any troubles (most times the don't ask for your adress and if the did I gave my DUS one away) I did frequently in my DUS times without further problems.

@Prebennorholm
I know from tyrolean restaurants something like this - in the area where the tourist busses stops you pay doubled for your beer as you would pay in the area where local people order it  Wink/being sarcastic ok this experience is ages ago (over ten years so I've no clue if the do it now the same way but nobody knows)

Jumbolino.
Kind Regards, Jutta.
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 4:43 pm

Lufthansa's pricing policy is quite doubtful. Some weeks ago I wanted to book a DRS-MUC-DRS roundtrip in order to fly Avro RJ85 and Fokker 50. A friend had checked the price for the routing for three weeks, all the time it was at only 92 Euro.
One evening, we checked the price again, at around ten at night the price was 92 Euro. Half an hour later, after having decided to book it, the price suddenly was 122 Euro. Within half an hour, the increased by 30 Euro!
We decided to wait for the next day and wanted to call LH to complain, but then we found out they had changed the aircraft types. That also happened only over night. As we checked the price again, it was 155 Euro!!! So the price for the same round trip went up by more than 60 Euro in less than 12 hours.
I don't think that within half an hour, or within 12 hours, so many people booked that flight...probably they even increase the price just by the number of reservation requests??? Would be real BS.

As they had changed the aircraft, we didn't want the flight any more. We then booked a MUC-DRS-MUC roundtrip for 122 Euro...


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Andreas
Posts: 5880
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:56 pm

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 5:17 pm

Quote:
I don't think that within half an hour, or within 12 hours, so many people booked that flight

I'm afraid that is exactly the case!!
I tried to book some flights to TXL over several weekends, and the 89 Euro price is virtually sold out, the 120 Euro as well, if you have to fly on Fridays after 10 a.m.

I asked an LH travelling agent if my impression, that the cheap seat contingents are being reduced in general, is correct, and the answer was: Yes!
It is NOT reduced per flight if booking requests are up, that is, the contingents are fixed.

Bloody unpleasant but the airfare policy is not unfair but simply an adjustment according to market conditions...which are not good as we all know, but some routes are obviously popular and a lot of people can afford to book their weekend flights home months in advance.

That is not a LH problem, I found it during booking some lowcost flights, too!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:18 pm

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 5:27 pm

Well, if you don't read the confirmation page properly that's your own fault. Sorry, but I don't see why you're moaning.


Put it like this: On Ryanair, when you select a fare, they tell you that they might increase the fare between booking steps, for example if they sell the last cheap seat while you are booking, and that you have to look closely at the final page with the "confirm" button - all previous pages do not matter. It's the same on all other airlines. Common sense, really - double check the amount before clicking on "confirm"!

And secondly, why book through the Lufthansa web page? In my experience, e-travel-agencies like opodo, travelocity and expedia generally have the same, or lower fares than any airline web page. And their booking pages are more flexible. (For example, I booked a ticket using someone else's credit card even though the terms & conditions said it wasn't possible, but it worked without a hitch because the form allowed me to do so...)
 
Jumbolino
Topic Author
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:15 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 6:14 pm

@Ikarus
yes, it was my fault (but not at all) lowcoast, lowfare airlines tell you BEFORE you begin the booking what might happen (or better at germanwings you don't get the confirmation page if you are too slow to book your special price and it's not available anymore) LH didn't give me a warning due to booking procedure that was the fraud !
it's like you go to the next shop and want to buy something at special advertisment price and if it's not available anymore that have to tell you and not to try to type another price in the cashier system than it's printed on the rack for example (if the do so you can go to the lawyer)
and you are right opodo had the same fare available LH refused to give me.

Jumbolino.

PS: but I see it in this way they wont have me as their customer ok I go by car --> End of story and I save approx 100 bucks to to their online fare (50 should be the fuel)
Kind Regards, Jutta.
 
DoorsToManual
Posts: 1453
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2003 12:28 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 6:57 pm

Jumbolino, as Jj said, in Argentina we have a system whereby Argentine residents or citizens can purchase discounted Economy tickets on our national carrier's airline. Foreigners are forced to purchase Y full-fare economy tickets on internal flights, and the price is often double!!
 
Jumbolino
Topic Author
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:15 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 8:08 pm

@DoorsToManual
ok that's what you have, but I was back on LH webpage searched again for that fare (without buying  Wink/being sarcastic meanwhile via opodo the good flight times are riped away but funny enough LH directly would offer it .... )
and clicked on conditions and there is only written that it must be sold and ticketed within germany SITI DE
and exactly this would happen to me (meanwhile I changed the adress to the adress of my agency in MUC but it would happen to me also with a swiss or austrian adress ....)

Jumbolino.
Kind Regards, Jutta.
 
teva
Posts: 1764
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 12:31 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 9:44 pm

S I T I
S I T O
S O T I
S O T O

That makes the difference
Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
Jumbolino
Topic Author
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:15 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 10:55 pm

@Teva
and exactly this isn't implemented in their webpage
they hang it onto your adress, because I can live in switzerland or elswhere
but I can buy a tkt in germany (also online, I've a german bank card)
and it can be ticketed in germany when I fly from munich (etkt ok if they say can be elsewhere but I could fetch it at the airport prior departure)
it can be also ticketed inside and then it's clearly SITI DE (and I can have my residence in switzerland)
and funny enough otherwise it was be possible - in january (well, BUS class tkt) I fly ZRH-MUC with a SOTO DE tkt (baught EW DTM)
and in 2001 I flew MUC-NCE-LYS-NCE-MUC with a SOTO FR tkt which was funny because normally you don't get a super-apex fare on a SOTO tkt (your former employer if I'm right  Wink/being sarcastic
and this was also a reason why I didn't care that much (except flight dates and time) on the confirmation page.

Jumbolino.
Kind Regards, Jutta.
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 11:11 pm

S I T I
S I T O
S O T I
S O T O


Teva is correct! How could I forgot this:

Sales Inside, Ticketing Inside,
Sales Inside, Ticketing Outside,
Sales Outside, Ticketing Iinside,
Sales Outside, Ticketing Outside.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
Jumbolino
Topic Author
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:15 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Tue May 06, 2003 11:22 pm

yes, Teva is completely right, but LH is wrong (in my mind),
my Swiss award tkt (only flown swiss miles are good miles FAZ told me yesterday  Wink/being sarcastic
is SITI DE and they have also my swiss adress and not a german one
SENT FQTEMLX INFO.DE@SWISS.COM SWISS TICKET CENTER / FRANKFURT
also MUC-ZRH-MUC but for 06.06. and 09.06.03 (on 23th I'm not in hurry so I'll really use my car and save 100 bucks and meanwhile the craped booking is gone away from my account but also the good times for the good fare)
so they hang it on the departure city which might be more ok for online buying.
and even if LH mean they are right and everybody else is wrong they had to tell me before they take my money !

Jumbolino.
Kind Regards, Jutta.
 
Jumbolino
Topic Author
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:15 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Sat May 10, 2003 9:08 pm

Hello Guys,
update for this story
"AW: InfoFlyway


Diskussions-Thread
---------------------------------------------------------------
Antwort (Customer Support) - 05/09/2003 07:52 AM
Sehr geehrte Frau Staudach,

vielen Dank für Ihre E-Mail.

Ihr Buchung wurde von unseren Kollegen storniert und es wird natürlich keine Belastung Ihrer Kreditkarte erfolgen, da das Ticket noch nicht ausgestellt war.

Wie Sie auch unter dem mitgeschickten Link lesen konnten, handelt es sich bei allen Sondertarifen um Marktpreise, die immer nur in dem Land angeboten werden können, in dem Sie starten. Und wenn Sie in Deutschland losfliegen möchten, dann befinden Sie Sich, mit einer Schweizer Adresse in Ihrem Profil, für unser Sytem in der Schweiz. Aus diesem Grund wird Ihnen auf der letzten Seite der Buchung dann ein neuer Preis angezeigt.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Ihr Lufthansa InfoFlyway Service Center
Daniel Heitmann"
translated
"Dear Miss Staudach,
Thank you for your email. Your booking is cancelled for free because the tkt wasn't issued. As you can see within the sent link (Which one, there was no one - Ju) all sonder-tarifs are market rate which are only available in the country from which you start your journey (I don't know what he meant I wanted to start in germany). and if you fly from germany than our system think you are in switzerland, this is the reason why the last (!) page of your booking indicated a new price (that's no reason I mailed them back that this is bullshit, I for myself was in the second of booking in Austria for example but I could also been in Africa or elsewhere).
Kind Regards,
DH"

meanwhile (minutes ago) I booked the same flight over opodo (the 6 p.m. flight was today again available because I need an evening flight or my car  Sad
and it wasn't available via opodo anymore at beginning of this week, well maybe someone cancelled his flight and this will be my first CR7 flight  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
and it costs LH even more money than it would have if they gave me direct the tkt (ok I had to use my austrian credit card instead of the suisse one because switzerland wasn't available on the list) because opodo gave it to me for exactly 136.62 EUR  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
(ok 100 EUR riped out of my purse but 4 hours or even more friday evening by car ?!)

Jumbolino.

PS: LH didn't react on my answer of their answer where I mentioned that I wasn't in switzerland and that they should give me the flight for free because of all the inconvenience and that I'll never again buy something from LH without getting a "excuse me" which is worth the word.
Kind Regards, Jutta.
 
danialanwar
Posts: 420
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:13 pm

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Sun May 11, 2003 1:12 am

SITI SOTO ect question. In this case, does Inside mean Germany or the entire EU?
Best Business Class: Royal Brunei. Best Economy: Singapore Airlines. First: please send money first!
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Sun May 11, 2003 1:18 am

SITI SOTO ect question. In this case, does Inside mean Germany or the entire EU?

It means inside Germany, it is separately for every country in the world.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
patroni
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 1999 7:49 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Sun May 11, 2003 8:38 am

Sorry, but even though I am no the biggest LH fan, I think their Info Flyway is still better than many other airline websites. I tried for example to book a flight via the BA website, on an ATP from Birmingham to Isle of Man and back on a Jetstream 41. The website showed me a price of some 70 pounds, but when it came to booking, it was refused because I have a German and not a UK credit card!

So even though they (theoretically) offer their low fares to non-UK residents, you are forced to go to the BA office and pay a lot more for the same flight only because of the credit card.

Cheers,

Tom
 
Jumbolino
Topic Author
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:15 am

RE: Deep, Deep Lufthansa Fraud

Wed May 21, 2003 6:05 am

Hello guys,
here is the last letter I've gotten from LH in this case
"Sehr geehrte Frau Staudach,

vielen Dank für Ihre e-mail.

Wenn Sie eine Geschäftsadresse in Deutschland haben, können Sie diese in Ihrem Profil als bevorzugte Adresse eintragen. Diese Änderung muss allerdings auch bei Miles and More bekanntgegeben werden.

Sind diese Änderungen erfasst, können Sie Flüge buchen zu dem Preis, der Ihnen als InfoFlyWay Kunde mit Wohnsitz in Deutschland angezeigt wird.

Mit freundlichen Grüssen

Ihr Lufthansa InfoFlyWay Service Center
JB"

short translated into english - I can book this cheap fares but before booking I have to change my miles and more adress (in my case it should be the same than the profile because I use my miles and more number as username)
and the adress in my profile and then I can book this fares (not only swiss also miles&more ok I think they are afraid that I get to early a frequent flyer card again, but I'm sure they shouldn't be that afraid).

Jumbolino.
Kind Regards, Jutta.