ly334
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Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 7:50 pm

This morning (06 May 2003) on an AZ flight from Rome to Tel Aviv, after landing the pilot announced in the microphone : "Welcome to Palestine".

I think this is the most disgusting thing for a pilot to say, especially that after all the passengers are his clients and he needs to serve and respect them nicely.

I would give this pilot a punishment of non working for a few months and so he will learn his lesson.

Alitalia's reaction: "This pilot is not representing the company and we promise that he wont fly anymore to Israel."

Let me just ask you one thing: If the pilot is the commandant of this flight, isn't he representing the company???

Have a nice day,
ly334
All my toughts are in aviation!!!
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 7:54 pm

That's indeed one hell of a disgusting remark...

This is really the only thing AZ can say? 'He will not fly to TLV anymore'?

What a BS...

Remarks like this give prove of no maturity. They should have to ground that pilot for a week or two.

Regards
Frederic
 
BestWestern
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 8:03 pm

He's a company employee, but not a representative. They employ marketing to give the companies opinion, and pilots to fly aircraft... Both are good at doing what they do, and shouldnt try and do the others... otherwise this is what happens..

The pilot should lose his job for commenting on a very political issue as this that could possibly lose Alitalia a lot of traffic from orthadox israelis.

Enjoy memorial day today and independence day tomorrow. Lets hope by this time next year we will be closer to a solution to the problems in the region.

You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
salim
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 8:10 pm

He was right to do that. An air france pilot already did it. This is the real name of this land. I think he has been realy courageous . I think they should only stop letting him fly to tlv.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 8:12 pm

It used to be Palestine, and 22% of it still is. Isn't this sensitive cos it contains a grain of truth?
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
DoorsToManual
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 8:28 pm

I don't think it's disgusting, and he certainly shouldn't be grounded.
 
avi
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 8:28 pm

I wonder if he knew that today Israel remember its fallen soldiers and civilian terror casualties and he did it on purpose.

This pilot landed in Israel, a country that was born under a UN resolution. There is a 0% of truth of what he said.
If he had landed in the GS or WB he could say what ever he wanted, not in TLV.

BestWestern, I don’t know how do you remark a memorial day wherever you are but in Israel it’s not a day to enjoy. Tomorrow it something else  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Long live the B747
 
VivaGunners
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 8:40 pm

In any case, it's not an appropriated phrase as a commandant.....

Cheers.
Any ideas for a signature?
 
mb339
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 8:41 pm

I think that was a pilot's error and I'm sure he didn't want to offend anybody.
As some of you wrote, this is a situation which we can't make fun of it

mb339



 
todaReisinger
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 8:42 pm

Fly El-Al...and you won't have to hear that kind of anti-Semitic provocations...




* * * * * * *








This is the real name of this land.

Thank you Salim for showing us once more why there won't be peace in the ME...

I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
Amir
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 8:46 pm

Hi,

funny to see the poor fact of todays life: whenever one criticizes israel he automatically becomes a antisemit! what a logic!

OF course the Captain of this AZ flight shouldn't Have made this remark (wheras it is partly true!) but a plane is a service industry and not a place to start political debates.

regards
Amir
 
Ikarus
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 8:47 pm

I don't see anything wrong. He made a poignant political comment in his announcement. So what. Respect to him for his courage.

But IMO this isn't really that aviation related.

Regards

Ikarus
 
DoorsToManual
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 8:47 pm

Toda, how easy it is to just slam the label "anti-Semitic" on anyone who disgarees with Israeli policy.....I hate people who do that, it immediately stifles reasonable and necessary debate about the Israel/Palestine issue....I would think carefully be going around brandishing people as "anti-Semites" or speaking in a way which is anti-Semitic....

The pilot's remark was provocative, but I don't believe he should be fired/grounded......
 
jcs17
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 8:47 pm

He was right to do that. An air france pilot already did it. This is the real name of this land. I think he has been realy courageous . I think they should only stop letting him fly to tlv.

Real courageous my ass. More like real cowardly, like your countrymen walking into crowded bars and blowing themselves up. Look on a map...where is Tel Aviv? Its no where near Palestine. I know your militant Islamic breatheren would like to believe that Tel Aviv is in Palestine, but it is not even disputed by the terrorists...errr....the PLO.

America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
ly334
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 8:48 pm

Salim,

"He was right to do that. An air france pilot already did it. This is the real name of this land. I think he has been realy courageous . I think they should only stop letting him fly to tlv."

If you think he was right and "courageous" to do so, why do you think he shouldnt fly anymore to TLV, he should maybe instead receive a raise in his salary???
All my toughts are in aviation!!!
 
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Fly-K
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 8:56 pm

This discussions just sadly proves the time isn't ready for peace yet, on both sides.
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
ly334
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 8:57 pm

I just saw in the news, that the pilot also announced "Happy independence day to Palestine" .


Well that's really nice.


ly334
All my toughts are in aviation!!!
 
todaReisinger
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 9:51 pm

The pilot's remark was provocative; it was provocative against the Jewish State, on the very day the Israelis are honoring the more than 21'000 people who were killed defending this country. That's an anti-Semitic act, no matter what you want us to believe.

It was meant to be offensive.



BTW...was it the same pilot who tried to land his A321 on the Tel Aviv-Jerusalem highway a few years ago...??



* * * * *



This discussions just sadly proves the time isn't ready for peace yet, on both sides.

It simply illustrates one side's total refusal of the other...
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
racko
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 10:00 pm

He should be fired simply for harming his own employer, Alitalia. Many Israelis will ignore Alitalia in the future, and this surely doesn't help a struggling airline in the current economic climate. Whatever he thinks about the issue, and whether or not he has a point, it's not up to him to use his position for this kind of remarks.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 10:06 pm

Toda, dear chap, let me rephrase your comments, but with less anti-Arab nonsense and a tad more realism: "The pilot's remark was provocative against the Jewish State, on the very day the Israelis are honoring the more than 21'000 people who were killed destroying Palestine."
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Ikarus
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 10:17 pm

Cedarjet: Quite true.... if I were still using that Respected Users list, you'd be on it for that remark  Big grin
 
airlinefreak1
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 10:23 pm

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that..... It was called palestine before 1948, look it up in any atlas that was published during that time ...
why are there so many narrow minded people in this world .... Israel is fact , arabs cant deny this anymore , but palestine has the right to exist , ~ 25% of israel is palestine ..... i hope that someday the palestinian state would be declared very soon , side by side to israel ....

I actually respect the Alitalia pilot who was brave enough to say it ...  Smile

well done ,

regards,

ali
 
Staffan
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 10:25 pm

I'm with Racko, when you are the company's face towards the customers, your personal opinions should be put aside.

Staffan
 
jrlander
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 10:33 pm

Ummmm..... you can't call that comment anti-semintic..... To say so indicates one of two things. Firstly, it could suggest that there is such a thing as a semite to be anti towards, which would mean that someone who is Jewish is of a distinctive race of humanity. Judaism is a religion. The second option is a linguistic meaning. Semitic is a reference to the language family that includes Hebrew. For you information, arabic is also a semitic language. Therefore any reference in favor of Palestine could not be considered anti-semitic. It also might not necessarily be anti-Jewish. Jews, Palestinian Christians, and Palestinian Muslims lived in relative peace before the Zionist movement.

This pilot's remark was probably not a professional thing to do. But it is not an uncommon feeling, and many who hold such feelings are not anti-Jewish. And yes, there have been many deaths at the hands of Palestinians. However, there have also been a whole lot of deaths at the hands of Israel's army. In addition, something like 60% of Palestinians in Palestine live in poverty. There is certainly suffering on both sides. None of this suffering will end until both sides are willing to sacrifice a good deal of idealogy regarding the land.
 
DoorsToManual
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestin

Tue May 06, 2003 10:33 pm

Toda, it woudn't be provocative if the Jewish state wasn't so selfish; that land does not just belong to Jews, it belongs to Palestinians too, and I see no reason why it should not be shared. How easy it is for Sharon just to sit on his hands and do nothing until the PA stops all violence permanently. The PA has no authority over its own people, certainly little if no influence over the various freaks who go round strapping bombs all over their bodies - meanwhile, they happily build more and more settlements. As for orthodox Jews, they are all idiots, just like the Christian right in America and all the other religious fanatics in the world....I wish they would all just drop down dead so that rational, reasonable people could inherit the world....
 
acvitale
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 10:42 pm

Cedarjet and Salim
And let us not forget that Palestine came from Judah and Israel thousands of years before Palestine existed.... It was only after the Romans destroyed Israel and Judah that Palestine could take root. But if you use that logic then eventually you must recognize Israel so I would think you may want to rethink the logic.
 
todaReisinger
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 10:44 pm

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that..... It was called palestine before 1948, look it up in any atlas that was published during that time ...
why are there so many narrow minded people in this world .... Israel is fact , arabs cant deny this anymore , but palestine has the right to exist , ~ 25% of israel is palestine .....



100% of Jordan is Palestine...It was called palestine before 1948, look it up in any atlas that was published during that time ...


so maybe when landing in Amman, pilots should announce "Welcome to Palestine"...

Oh wait...this would be unacceptable....


* * *


Jrlander: the word "anti-Semitism" has a meaning; if you ignore it, learn it...instead of throwing your pseudo-explanation (which is btw not really original...)


* * *


with less anti-Arab nonsense


...I have NO illusions left concerning a real peace in the ME...


* * * *


Btw, Alitalia CEO has sent letter to the Israeli ambassador in Rome apologizing for pilot saying `welcome to Palestine`.


I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
MASkargo
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 10:46 pm

I think he should be applauded for that act of bravery. Israel does not exist to me nor to many countries around the world. The land rightfully belongs to the Palestinians, and not to the Israelis...

This problem can be traced back to the Balfour Treaty signed between the Zionists and the british government 'post-holocaust'... its was not their bloody land to sign it away like that...
 
petazulu
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 10:53 pm

I am no big fan of Isreal or its people, but the pilot should be strongly disciplined. Comments like that are a reckless business practice that shows poor internal commnad and control. They should be reserved for strictly personal situations, not when piloting the helm of an airliner.

What a buffoon!
 
jrlander
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 10:54 pm

Toda:

For your information, my training in holocaust studies was by Deborah Lipstadt of Emory University. You may remember her, there was a huge case in England where someone sued her for libel when she attacked him for saying that the holocaust did not happen. She is also on the Board of Directors of the National Holocaust Museum in D.C., and the head of the Jewish Studies program at Emory. She is one of the leading holocaust scholars in the world. She is Jewish, and a supporter of the right of Israel to exist. (For your information, as pro-Palestinian and a lover of Arab culture as I am, I also believe that Israel has the right to exist. I simply don't believe Israel has the right to oppress others, just as I believe that one of the greatest sins of European history was the oppression of the Jewish people)

My explanation was nearly verbatim from what I learned from her. Maybe you should get off your idealogical high horse and realize that Jewish Israeli citizens have far more in common with the Christian and Muslim Israeli and Palestinian neighbors than they often seem to recognize. There is such a thing as anti-Judaism. It is distinct from anti-Zionism. You could make an argument that there is such a thing as antisemitism (not anti-semitism), but I frankly don't buy that. However, you cannot make a successful arguement that anything pro-Palestinian is anti-semitic or antisemitic.
 
Joni
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 10:59 pm


This is akin to a pilot, upon landing in JKF, saying "Welcome to America". The United States is a country that is located in the Americas, just as Israel is a country located in Palestine.

A pilot landing in Jerusalem has to select his or her words with more care, however, since Jerusalem isn't officially in any country but an International City administered by the UN.


 
todaReisinger
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 11:01 pm

Maybe you could enlighten us on the distinction between "antisemitism" and "anti-semitism"...
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
exnonrev
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 11:07 pm

Not only should the pilot be fired, (and forced to spend a month touring all of Europe's concentration camps) the next Alitalia a/c to enter Israeli airspace should be greeted by a couple of F-15s to send it on its merry way back to Italy.
 
Trvlr
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 11:15 pm

Okay, let's clear something up.

Israel = a country.

Tel Aviv = in Israel.

Those who think Israel (apart from the West Bank & Gaza Strip) is NOT a country, and is actually called "Palestine" probably haven't recieved more than a 3rd grade education.

If the pilot had landed in either Gaza or the West Bank, then he could call it "Palestine". I see nothing wrong with that. But prolonging this notion that Israel is not a country shows an incredible lack of tolerance, not to mention foolish ignorance.

Aaron G.
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 11:23 pm



I find if that if anyone makes a statement against Israel no matter how paltry it is they are labled antisemitic and there is alot condemnation. I mean people in this world are prejudice so it is a certainty that they are people who would not like you. With that realisation you need to get over it.

Back to the point if I was on the plane I would have had a harty laugh. That doesnt mean that I dont want peace in Israel and Palistine or agree with the bombings and the attacks carried out on both side. It is wrong. Yes the pilot shold be more careful with his words.
Eagles Soar!
 
jrlander
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 11:23 pm

Toda:

As Prof. Lipstadt taught us, anti-semite is a combine word indicating that the idea of semite exists. You could argue that since the term antisemitism has become a commonly expressed way of describing anti-Jewish feelings, that it has its own meaning which is now separated from its origin of anti-semite. This is, of course, complete semantics. However, I am a student of theology and semantics is what I spend a lot of time doing.

My problem with the word antisemite is still its use of the term semite, even if it is no longer a separate concept within the word. The idea of Jews as semites derives from European prejudice and misunderstanding of Judaism, and I don't really think that that is a concept that should be kept alive. If language is formative of the thoughts and minds of people that here it, continuing to use the word 'antisemite', which in spoken language is indistiguishable from 'anti-semite,' continues to suggest that Jews are of a different race. They aren't. Judaism is a religion. And 'antisemitism' is used without distinction between people who are anti-Jewish, people who are anti-Israel, people who are anti-Zionist, and people who are pro-Palestinian. Distinctions certainly exist there. I am by no means anti-Jewish or anti-Israel, however I would describe myself as being against the Zionist movement (I realize that that movement led to the creation of Israel, but I am against current ZIonism which claims that all Palestinian lands are God given to Israel) and I would describe myself as being for a Palestinian state that is viable and lives alongside of and with a secure state of Israel.
 
todaReisinger
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Tue May 06, 2003 11:52 pm

since the term antisemitism has become a commonly expressed way of describing anti-Jewish feelings

Well, the word was actually created in France with the meaning "anti-Jewish".

Maybe it was not appropriate, but the word has a clear meaning.



* * * *



I would describe myself as being for a Palestinian state that is viable and lives alongside of and with a secure state of Israel

...then you're not "anti-Zionist"...you're simply sharing the hope of most Israelis.

Those who consider Tel Aviv as being part of "occupied Palestine" ARE anti-Zionists; sadly, an overwhelming majority in the Arab/Islamic world is sharing this latter view. And that's the only reason why peace still remains an unachievable dream there.

I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
cdgdtw
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Wed May 07, 2003 12:02 am

Yes, there is a time and place for everything. The pilot should reserve his political comments for a more appropriate environment. But since the subject is in debate, there needs to be a line between semitism and zionism and more aptly, radical zionism. We hear all the time about muslim fundamentalism but rarely radical zionist. To speak out against Israel and its policies gives someone a racist title and that is simply not true. Palestine and the Palestinian people have gotten the short end of the media for too long. How can there ever be a serious "road-map" to peace if we are working under the assumption that Israel can do no wrong?
 
cedarjet
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Wed May 07, 2003 12:20 am

AC Vitale:

"And let us not forget that Palestine came from Judah and Israel thousands of years before Palestine existed.... It was only after the Romans destroyed Israel and Judah that Palestine could take root. But if you use that logic then eventually you must recognize Israel so I would think you may want to rethink the logic."

Yes indeed. But aren't you skating on thin ice with this one? I mean, if something that happened thousands of years ago (ie the pre-Roman Israel) justifies the expulsion of Palestinians and the eradication of their country, shouldn't all the non-native Americans leave the USA and go back to Europe, Asia and Africa?
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Trvlr
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Wed May 07, 2003 12:32 am

We hear all the time about muslim fundamentalism but rarely radical zionist.

Ummm...maybe you haven't been reading the news lately, or something. It's certainly not hard to find mention of radical Jewish settlers in the West Bank & Gaza. And the assumption that the media gives Palestine "the short end" is in my opinion totally false, but that's not something that can be considered objectively.

Something to keep in mind, though, is that while there are several officially recognized Jewish terrorist groups out there (like the JDL, and those led by Meir Kahane), there are far more officially recognized and active Muslim fundamentalist/terrorist organizations.

---

I'm not sure I agree that there is a line between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, if one defines each term correctly. Since anti-Zionism is essentially the belief that the state of Israel should not exist, shouldn't that easily equate with the belief that the overwhelming majority population of Jews in Israel shouldn't exist? If that's incorrect, then where are they to go? While I do agree that certain people in this thread have been easily too quick to label some comments as anti-semitic, I certainly don't blame them if those they criticize are truly anti-Zionist.

Aaron G.
 
Ikarus
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Wed May 07, 2003 12:48 am

What's wrong with anti-zionism?

I find the notion of religious states depressingly dumb (Ergo I wouldn't like to
set foot in the Vatican, in Iran, in pre-war Afghanistan, Israel, nor in any other country strongly linking religion with governance).

As atheist (or should I say Nihilist?), I find the notion that any people have right to a land occupied by others simply because of some random scripture offensive. If I found a sect and write a religious dogma entitling me and my (hypothetical) followers to own & rule over, say, Romania, simply because part of my family history lies there, who's gonna take that seriously? And why on earth should they? Religion (ALL religion) is the opium of the masses - it's hollow, empty, and nothing but a huge set of lies pulled over people's eyes. To claim land with only religion as justification is a crime on humanity, spitting in the face of logic and science. But alas, it is far too late to ever correct the mistakes made in the 40s and 50s. Now these people are doomed to either wreak genocide (which is, effectively, what they are trying to do) or live in everlasting conflict, hatred and fear (which, failing to achieve full genocide, is what they'll probably end up doing for several generations). Peace and stability? Probably not achievable in my lifetime, or for several generations. But they brought it on themselves, so I'm not particularly sympathetic. It's not the first generation of settlers I feel sorry for, but the second and following ones. The ones who never really had a choice but live in that vicious cycle because of the mistakes of their forefathers. Then again, even that "feeling sorry for them" only lasts so long, and as they chose their government to be one that thrives on bloodshed and enjoys prolonging the conflict, even that shred of sympathy is lost.

Quite frankly, just like native Americans & Australians have the moral highground (being the victims) and more right to the country than the ruling majority in my view, so Palestinians have more right to the land occupied by Israel. So the pilot should be respected for his views expressed in his simple, short announcement, but I agree from an employee's point of view he should not have made it. I suppose when there's a conflict between one's strong beliefs and loyalty to the employer, everyone has to choose. It seems his opinion was more important to him than his job security.

Funny how one pilot's remark turns a thread in the Civ-Av forum into something resembling the Non-Av forum.

I think it's time to stop reading this thread before I get even more annoyed...

Regards

Ikarus
 
jrlander
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Wed May 07, 2003 12:50 am

I'm not necessarily advocating this position, however one could be against the idea of a Jewish state in the Middle East without advocating for the relocation of the millions of Jewish Israelis living there. One could advocate for a secular state covering what is now Palestine and Israel, and having that state with no official religion and thus including all people there (Jewish, Christian and Muslim). It is not an either/or statement. Thus, in that circumstance, anti-Zionism is not that same thing as anti-Jewish. My understanding of Zionism is a movement which claims God gave the land to the Jews. As much as a Christian as I am, I don't believe that such a belief being the basis of international policy is a particularly good one.
 
Ikarus
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Wed May 07, 2003 1:02 am

Let me clarify: I am not for the killing, or relocating, of Jewish people currently occupying Israel.

I merely state that their original setting up a state there was a big mistake. (From a moral point of view) It was comparable to imperialist settlers in America, Australia, Africa, Asia etc. - in short, the decision to set up a Jewish immigrant nation on the land occupied by different ethnicities was wrong. I am anti-Zionist in the sense of being, in principle, against the original concept and decision, but not in the sense of wishing for any correction to that decision being applied.

There is no satisfactory resolution for the situation achievable any more. Not in our lives. 150-200 years from now, the situation may be like Northern Ireland, Kurdish regions of Turkey, Chechnya or the Bask region of Spain. A region full of occasional conflicts and terrorism and occassional wars. Until then it will remain a warlike zone of terrorism from both sides.

Pity the Palestinians were dragged into this. They're the victims, and in a few hundred years (if humans are still around) they will be looked at by historians as yet another people uprooted and suppressed and more or less wiped out by Imperialism. When will history ever stop repeating itself?
 
sllevin
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestin

Wed May 07, 2003 1:06 am

Clearly, there's going to be a lot of opinions on this.

However, let me sum up what I believe to be the mainstream Jewish viewpoints.

1) Judaism is more than just 'religion.' It encompasses far more ethnicity that the typical mishmash of other religions, which tend to be layered upon existing culture. Picture Roman Catholics, then multiply by 10.

2) Jews, as a religious and ethnic group, have been the target of far more oppression and wholesale genocide than anyone else. Do you realize that the Jewish population now is only slightly high than it was in 1940?

3) When Israel was established as a Jewish-administered state, it was because 50% of all Jews had just been killed. And Jews for thousands of years occupied the land of Isreal until invaders conquered and forced the Jews out (the diaspora).

4) more importantly, the formation of Israel DID NOT take anything away from the Arabs living there. While a Jewish administration was in place, property was not seized. Property was, instead, abandoned by Arabs who were assured by the other Arab states that they would crush the Jews and drive them into the ocean, and then they would return. Of course, the flaw in that plan was that Israel didn't fall.

5) Compassion is a keystone to all religion. Is the formation of Isreal is not compassion, then what is? And if the plight of the Jews in 1948 didn't justify compassion, what does?

Steve
 
F+ Rouge
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Wed May 07, 2003 1:14 am

@ Airlinefreak1 & Co

So then let's call Silesia, Pommerania and Eastern Prussia GERMANY again. You can look it up on any map published before 1945!
 
jrlander
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Wed May 07, 2003 1:16 am

I'm not Palestinian, so I do not have specifics on this. However, I have read the auto-biography of the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, who is an Arab Israeli citizen. He would dispute the claim that the Israelis did not take anything from the Arabs. He claims that the Israelis took a lot from the Arabs- land, property, and the like.

You might want to read a bit on the plight of Arab Israeli citizens.... I would hardly call Israel's treatment of them as compassionate! Let alone Israeli treatment of Palestinians who did not leave what is now Israel! And note, I am making a huge, huge, huge distinction between Jewish and Israeli.

And yes, there is a culture to Judaism. That is certainly the thought of Mordecai Kaplan, who founded the Reconstructionist tradition of Judaism. However, claiming a cultural identity is not the same as a race, nor is it a good reason to form a state. And yes, the Holocaust and the preceeding centuries of oppression of Jews were great sins. And yes, they should have been helped. The question that Ikarus seems to be posing is whether or not the founding of a Jewish state was the answer. This is different than whether or not Jews should have been allowed to emigrate to what was then Palestine. There was already a large Jewish presence there before then, and another solution would simply have been to allow unlimited emigration to take place without founding a Jewish state. But, 60 years later this is not necessarily a worthwile arguement. Rather, looking forward how can the people exist in peace and prosperity should be the focus.

And.... back to the original subject... the pilot should not have used his job as a place to advocate his politics. If he didn't want to say "Welcome to Israel", he could have just said "Welcome to Tel Aviv"

 
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DaV
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Wed May 07, 2003 1:30 am

Exnonrev wrote: Not only should the pilot be fired, (and forced to spend a month touring all of Europe's concentration camps) the next Alitalia a/c to enter Israeli airspace should be greeted by a couple of F-15s to send it on its merry way back to Italy.

The pilot said something stupid IMO, but getting angry with Alitalia (or Italy/Italians in general) is even more stupid.

DaV

Two monologues do not make a dialogue
 
Shamrock1Heavy
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Wed May 07, 2003 2:43 am

Good for him, this is true name of this piece of land.

-D
when in hell, we'll do shots at the bar
 
Shamrock1Heavy
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Wed May 07, 2003 2:45 am

BTW, I am in no way anti-semetic, I want peace, that is all.
when in hell, we'll do shots at the bar
 
olli
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RE: Alitalia Pilot Announced: "Welcome To Palestine"

Wed May 07, 2003 2:47 am


Come on!!! Please don´t make a big issue for such a stupid thing.

I bet that the pilot didn´t mean to offend anyone.

Regards