B747-437B
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Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 5:33 am

Air India will introduce a FIFTH weekly service to Newark from July 4, marking a 50% increase in available seat miles on India-US routes in the last 8 months.

The new flight will operate on Fridays using Boeing 747-400 aircraft. The flights currently operate on Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays.

Newark flights have been an overwhelming success for Air India, as can be shown by this second increase in capacity after less than a year of operation.

Air India will now offer over 6500 weekly direct seats between India and the United States - more than all other carriers on the route combined. In addition to 5x weekly Newark EWR flights via Paris CDG, the carrier also operates daily services to New York JFK and 3x weekly services to Chicago ORD both via London LHR.

This increase will also make Air India the LARGEST CARRIER in the Newark to Paris market, a remarkable feat for a new entrant. Air India will now offer 2115 weekly seats compared to 1981 weekly seats offered by Continental and 1764 weekly seats offered by Air France.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
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STT757
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 5:37 am

"This increase will also make Air India the LARGEST CARRIER in the Newark to Paris market, a remarkable feat for a new entrant"

?..

CO flies twice "DAILY" between EWR and CDG with 767s and 777s, also AF flies "DAILY" between EWR and CDG with 777s.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 5:42 am

CO flies once daily between EWR and CDG with a 283 seater 777.

AF also flies once daily between EWR and CDG with a 252 seater 343.

AI's 744s will seat 12-26-385 in the new configuration with the flat beds in First and the new slumberettes in Business.

Do the math.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
United777
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 5:44 am

STT757 - I think Air India will offer more seats on the route than any other airline. They use Boeing 747-400 on each flight.

Good to see Air India doing so good again and getting back to it's glory days we use to see back in the good days.
 
N79969
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 5:45 am

-437B,

I have a question regarding Air India. I noticed that they have a relatively small fleet of aircraft particularly 747. How does Air India (or other similarly sized carrier) compensate when one of their aircraft is in for a C-check or D-check? Do they reduce their schedule, lease an aircraft, utilize the other aircraft more?
 
United777
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 5:45 am

 Smile You beat me to it B747-437B.

B747-437B Does AI serve Paris from Mumbai or Delhi?
 
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STT757
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 6:02 am

CO flies twice daily to CDG from EWR, the reduction to one flight was temporary due to the Iraq war.

Begining this month,

CO # 58 777 departs EWR daily for CDG at 6:15PM

CO # 54 767-200 departs EWR daily for CDG at 10:05Pm.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 6:03 am

I noticed that they have a relatively small fleet of aircraft particularly 747. How does Air India (or other similarly sized carrier) compensate when one of their aircraft is in for a C-check or D-check?

AI has 7 Boeing 747-400s in the active fleet right now, with an 8th to follow from Korean Air in the mid-term future. Each US rotation is just short of 48 hours, giving them a capacity of 3 weekly rotations each even with 24 hours of scheduled maintenance downtime. That leaves plenty of spare capacity for 15 weekly US rotations even with one aircraft down.

Does AI serve Paris from Mumbai or Delhi?

Paris is served nonstop from BOM with 744s. AI also codeshares on Air France flights from both BOM and DEL to Paris.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 6:06 am

CO flies twice daily to CDG from EWR, the reduction to one flight was temporary due to the Iraq war.

I don't know where you are getting your info, but the CRS systems all show a single CO flight EWR-CDG in July namely CO 56 at 1815 hrs daily with a 777.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
N79969
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 6:26 am

Thanks. C and D-checks last up to 60 days from what I understand. What about during those extended periods?
 
MAH4546
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 6:30 am

The second EWR-CDG frequency has been suspended indefinitley from what I have heard.
a.
 
airfrancejfk
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 7:00 am

"This increase will also make Air India the LARGEST CARRIER in the Newark to Paris market, a remarkable feat for a new entrant. Air India will now offer 2115 weekly seats compared to 1981 weekly seats offered by Continental and 1764 weekly seats offered by Air France."


You're forgetting one thing here my friend, most of the passengers on the AI flight are not getting off in Paris, matter of fact, I'd be damned if AI actually sold the entire B747-400 from EWR with Paris bound passengers only, so in actuality, they are not offering the most weekly seats from EWR-CDG, because more than 3/4 of the passengers will never set foot out of the the airport at CDG.
 
United777
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 7:44 am

Does Air India and Air France code-share on the EWR-CDG route also?

Does Air France object to Air India offering more seats on the route than AF does. If so can they ask the government to decrease the number of seats AI uses on the route.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 10:10 am

Hussain has put in on record that EWR will soon be daily. He said this to a news channel. Dunno if there is enough traffic for that!

Sean: Is AI considering other points in the US like ATL or IAD? And the West Coast? AI has no services there at all except a codeshare with SQ.

-Roy
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 12:19 pm

most of the passengers on the AI flight are not getting off in Paris, matter of fact

Maybe so, but again most of the passengers on the CO flight did not originate at EWR either but rather at some point downline - and most of the passengers on the AF flight won't get off in Paris but rather connect to elsewhere in the system. Why is that any different from folks flying on to India?
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 12:28 pm

Hussain has put in on record that EWR will soon be daily.

The plan always was for EWR to go daily in the long term, but everyone is surprised at how well the flight is doing and just how soon this will become viable.

Is AI considering other points in the US like ATL or IAD? And the West Coast? AI has no services there at all except a codeshare with SQ.

Neither ATL or IAD are approved gateways under the bilateral. Also, AI serves both LAX and SFO under codeshares/blocked seats with SQ, MH and OZ. Finally, there are tentative plans to start LAX services through NRT and/or LHR if and when slots, authorities and planes become available.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 12:34 pm

B747,

as you've stated; AI has a plethora of unused rights into the USA via other countries.... but have they considered a nonstop to any of its current destinations, particularly in the event that a competitor launches a nonstop (similar to what UA almost did)?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
United777
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 1:42 pm

I wish Air India came to San Francisco or Vancouver. Vancouver I think has a bigger market for Air India than San Francisco.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 8:56 pm

have they considered a nonstop to any of its current destinations, particularly in the event that a competitor launches a nonstop

Air India has made it very clear that they will NOT be launching a nonstop except as a competitive response. United's planned ORD-DEL flight was a joke that no one at AI took seriously. I've posted in great technical detail on Flyertalk why that flight could never have been operated the way UAL wanted to run it and hence why it bit the dust once UAL actually decided to try and make money again. Meanwhile, neither Delta nor Northwest has expressed any intention to run India-US nonstop flights so things will likely remain this way ad infinitum.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
petazulu
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 10:37 pm

Why not start a nonstop NYC-DEL?
Is it technically too far? Is there any plane that could do this distance? I would think this would be popular for many people.

If anyone could explain this in detail- I would appreciate it. It seem clear to me that NYC can support a direct flight to India.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 10:55 pm

Why not start a nonstop NYC-DEL?

Because it is more efficient to run the flight with one stop. Simple as that.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
petazulu
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 11:02 pm

B747-437B,
That doesn't sound more efficient to me! If 80% of the people are going to India on these flights, how could it be more efficient to stopover in Europe?

Does Air India really make that much money carrying cargo/pax from NYC to CDG/LHR? I would think that they would get more usage out of their airplanes if they didn't have a 2 hour layover in Europe in each direction.

Of course, I don't pretend to know much about this- so more details from anyone wuld be nice. If stopovers are efficient in this case, can you explain?
 
N79969
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 11:14 pm

UA ALPA killed ORD-DEL non-stop from what I understand.
 
hkg82
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Thu May 08, 2003 11:54 pm

Yes I'm curious as well to know why you said that it's more efficient, and why it's the case. Surely, there is enough demand for both direct passenger & cargo flights between India & the USA, yet there are no direct flights between the two countries (or at least, not very many, as perhaps other airlines do India – US direct?) and without doubt, it’s more efficient to run the operation without any stops!! They’ve also been able to capture the lucrative traffic between the US & Europe (e.g. LHR-JFK-LHR).

Does it have anything to do with lack of aircraft? Maybe they don’t have enough aircraft to fly to both Europe & the US, so they combine the flights? But I find this scenario unlikely, as I don’t understand why it’s taken them so long to get the necessary aircraft (i.e. additional 747s or 777s).

I’m not really very informed on the Indian aviation industry (as both an Indian and an aviation enthusiast, I ought to get more up-to-date!) so maybe I have overlooked other factors that I’m not very knowledgeable on (such as the internal slowness of the airline's management, or political wrangling over aircraft orders?).

Regards,
Hkg82.
 
N79969
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Fri May 09, 2003 12:01 am

US-LHR traffic rights have to be one of AI's most valuable assets. They get to do something that NW, DL, US, and CO would love to do but cannot. So would BMI. There is serious money involved and AI would be dumb to pass LHR in either direction without a stop.

I noticed on a trip to India that AI extensively uses fifth-freedom rights on several of routes. It's a good gig. For instance, their flight from DEL-NRT stops in BKK. JAL flies the route non-stop. Flights to KIX were via HKG although AI has the equipment to fly it non-stop as well.
 
hkg82
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Fri May 09, 2003 12:11 am

Many airlines would love to do LHR-JFK-LHR. Singapore Airlines has been wanting to do LHR-JFK-LHR for years but the British Government has not given the airline permission to operate the route, despite the fact that the Singaporean Government has allowed BA to make SIN their Asian hub for flights to Australia! But that’s another story....  Smile

AI should also start direct flights to the US in addition to the current flights via Europe. There is a lot of traffic from India to the US, particularly to California.

Hkg82..
 
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PW100
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Fri May 09, 2003 3:37 am

Not sure what fellow member -437B posted on flyer talk.
However the principle is that [ultra] long haul flights are in-efficient. Period.

Let say you have a non-stop trip of 14000 km. Any plane flying that route non-stop [year round including head winds] would face a severe payload penalty. A 747 loaded with 423 pax [AI config] would not be able to do that. It could certainly fly 14000 km, but would not be able to carry any cargo, and would probably be limited to 350 pax or so [not sure what the exact numbers are]. Due to the length of the flight, it would probably be required to carry a double crew as well.

If you would do that very same trip one stop [ideally that stop should be somewhere around halfway], that very same airplane could be loaded to the max, with all 423 seats occupied, and also carry a very healthy cargo load. This flight would be able to generate 20-40% more revenue for a cost increase of maybe 10% [you would need more crew hours, more fuel, additional airport fees etc.] compared to the non-stop flight. The overall picture is very much in favour for the one-stop flight.

Furthermore, the one-stop flight also has the potential to generate additional revenue if it was allowed to pick up/drop pax/cargo at the intermediate stop, which could be a considerable bonus if the airline has fifth freedom rights.

The longer the flight, the heavier the performance penalty. So these ultra long-haul flights must be sold at a [heavy?] premium to make them profitable. Therefore these flights are only suited if they carry a lot of first and business class pax, for whom the time advantage of the direct flight is worth the premium. Considering the fact that Boeing couldn't generate sufficient interest for the Sonic Cruiser, the premium market must be limited in size and revenue potential.

PW100
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United777
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Fri May 09, 2003 4:19 am

Sean why was the proposed United Airlines ORD-DEL non-stop route a joke. If it wasnt for 9.11 I think the route would have been flying today. Same as non-stop flights from Canada to India with Canada 3000.
 
N79969
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Fri May 09, 2003 4:22 am

PW100,

Very good points.

In the case of a PW-powered 744, the airline would have to buy the PIP for the engines for such a long route.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Fri May 09, 2003 5:23 am

why was the proposed United Airlines ORD-DEL non-stop route a joke

This is a quote of what I posted on Flyertalk on August 15, 2001.

Summer operations at DEL will be impossible under the current schedule that proposes an 1115am departure. The average noontime temperature is 44 Celcius, 112 Fahrenheit. For the 9500 ft runway 10/28, FARs restrict the permitted payloads in these conditions. For a PW4056 powered 747-400, the MTOW is just under 770,000 lbs which is a huge hit from the standard MTOW of 875,000 lbs. Of this 770,000 lbs my rough calculations show fuel requirements of approximately 400,000 lbs with assumptions of average fuel burn at 0.147 mpg and weight at 6.7lbs/gal. Its simple math to figure out that the aircraft can't make money doing this. And this is for an AVERAGE summer day in DEL - I don't even want to begin doing the numbers for anything higher. If it ever starts (and I am skeptical that it ever will), it will last no more than a year, if that. UA has proven time and time again that they simply don't understand the Indian market and this ill-fated concept of a nonstop just proves my point. The end of the RTW was inevitable and it was ready to be axed back in June. In fact, I posted on June 20 that "Rumors coming out of both Delhi and Elk Grove say that the RTW could be scaled back as soon as November". UAL has succeeded in blowing the India market yet again.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
United777
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Fri May 09, 2003 5:39 am

Damm it. All I want is a non-stop flight from US to India.  Smile
 
N79969
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Fri May 09, 2003 5:41 am

-437B,

UA bought performance-improvement-packages (PIP) from Pratt for some of their 744s. Did your numbers incorporate that?

The pilots killed the route before the economics ever could.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Fri May 09, 2003 7:02 am

How do Indian politics generally feel toward runway (and airport) expansion?

My guess would be about as "well" as all others  Sad
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jaysit
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RE: Air India To Increase EWR Flights Yet Again

Tue May 13, 2003 9:13 pm

Just did the EWR-CDG-BOM route on Air India's Executive Class on VT-ESO (Khajuraho). There were only 7 of us on the upper deck of a 744 all the way to Mumbai, and First was empty. Coach, on the other hand, was packed. According to the flight crew, about 8 passengers disembarked at Paris.

I don't think that AI are marketing the flight on the EWR-CDG sector because they can pack em in all the way to India. Plus, although the cabin crew in Business Class are exceptional providing a very high level of care, the hardware is VERY rundown. The 744 I was on had seen better days (and that is putting it mildly). No PTVs, poor quality audio, and the overhead monitors were scratchy and blurred. Pity, because the cabin crew really try their best.

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