N754PR
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Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 8:16 pm

Can anyone confirm something has happened in Congo, according to the Chinese news a plane with about 200 people on board has crashed, something to do with a open door??

If this is not true then I'm very sorry (very happy for the aircraft and passengers)
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
Airbus_A340
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 8:28 pm

Yes indeed, I heard about this too, an IL-something, can anyone confirm?

Airbus_A340
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David_itl
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 8:36 pm


Latest news: here:


Over 200 dead in IL76 incident after door bursts open in mid-flight.

David
 
A350-200
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 8:37 pm

It is said in the french news that the IL76 door broke at 7.000 ft ( ! how is that possible, even at that low altitude) and several pax were sucked out...
 
N754PR
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 8:59 pm

Has it landed or crashed, I assume this was a military flight then?
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
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mighluss
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 9:02 pm

As is said in Spanish news, a door broke, and some passengers were sucked out, but the plane landed safely a few later.
Miquel.
 
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 9:03 pm

According to France2 TV, the aircraft has landed.
As always in such cases, care should be taken with this "live info".
The aircraft was carrying several special police forces.
 
N754PR
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 9:14 pm

According to the BBC the ramp opened in flight and all passengers (Military and civilian) got sucked out (Approx 120 dead)

As already said the aircraft with its russian crew landed.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
petertenthije
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Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 9:20 pm

According to Dutch radio news a number of passengers were sucked out of a plane when the door flew of. The plane was an Ilyushin cargo plane chartered by the military. Apparently the plane was carrying 200 passengers.

No mention about whether the plane crashed or not. Therefore I presume it landed safely, otherwise the news would have mentioned it.

The BBC is reporting 120 casualties. The article mentioned that the back door fell of. That would make it almost definately a IL-76. Is it normal to move passengers in a cargo plane like a '76?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3013911.stm

Attamottamotta!
 
Alessandro
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 9:49 pm

Swedish media claim 120 dead Congolese and only the Russian air-crew survived.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
sevenair
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 10:02 pm

Well its defo a crash-the BBC news site has a picture of a massive fireball-titled 'Freak aaccident claims scores".
 
petertenthije
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 10:07 pm

No it has not crashed. The picture with the fireball is an archive picture of the Irkutsk crash in 1999.

In the article it says this:

"The Russian crew was able to turn the Ilyushin 76 around and land at Kinshasa airport following the incident."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3013911.stm


Attamottamotta!
 
backfire
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 10:15 pm

All these media comments seem to be feeding off the same original report, and chasing their own tails.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 10:20 pm

The latest I seen in Swedish media, on friday night, about 200 Congolese died
in a freak accident being sucked out of the rear when a cargo door on the IL-76 failed 45 minutes into the flight at 2200m. The plane was going from Leopoldville (Kinshasa) to Elisabethville (Lumbumbashi) when the cargo door opened, the Russian air-crew turned around the plane and landed in Leopoldville (Kinshasa).
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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mighluss
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 10:20 pm

http://www.lavanguardia.es/web/20030509/51139506123.html

A newspaper from Barcelona is speaking about the Il-76 bomber!
Miquel.
 
corocks
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 10:21 pm

CNN is reporting "dozens" dead, but not everyone. The plane did land safely.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/05/09/plane.reut/index.html
 
Unique
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 10:22 pm

Mighluss, the webpage requires you to register first... Any other hints? What does it say?
 
backfire
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 10:26 pm

CNN is reporting "dozens" dead, but not everyone

Dunno which CNN you're reading, but mine says this:

"The doors opened including the ramp as the pressure system broke down. Everybody was sucked out and is presumed dead," the official in the capital Kinshasa said.
 
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mighluss
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 10:31 pm

Yes, I forgot, sorry. It says that the rear door opened at 10.000m. and most passengers were sucked out. Military, and familiars.

Only wanted to say that for this newspaper any big military plane, becomes a bomber, even if it's carrying people... (A very bad joke crosses my mind right now, but well, some respect to this pleople)

[Edited 2003-05-09 15:36:01]
Miquel.
 
Treg
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 10:33 pm

2200 m and pressure? Something is wrong here. At 2200 there shouldn't be any mayor pressure differences or am I wrong here?
 
Unique
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 10:36 pm

Treg, with a planned flying altitude of more than 2200 m, pressure is built up before reaching the altitude you need to build up pressure. In other words, the cell has already been pumped up even though the altitude was not yet reached but was planned to be reached.
 
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apuneger
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 10:59 pm

RIP to all the victims...

Ivan
Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
 
backfire
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 11:29 pm

I'm with you, Treg.

Pressurization of an aircraft is a gradual process. In any case aircraft are normally pressurized to around 6000-8000ft altitude, so the differential at 7000ft would have been negligible I'd have thought.

Besides, a large door falling off would have equalized pressure almost immediately - so I can't see how 100-plus people could have been blown out.

Was this aircraft really at 7000ft, or a lot higher?
 
ben
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Fri May 09, 2003 11:41 pm

1mb=30ft

Therefore:

33.33 millibars of pressure differential per 1000 feet in the International Standard Atmosphere.

If everyone was standing up (ie. crammed into the cargo area), and the aircraft was in a nose-up attitude, nothing to hold on to... it might not have been a case of being 'sucked' out, but more 'falling' out.

Finally: Only 7,000ft after 45 minutes of flight? That slow rate of climb is not going to happen routinely... unless it was cruising at this level.

The usual completely inaccurate media reports again! At least they spelled Ilyushin correctly this time.
 
Aviastar
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sat May 10, 2003 1:52 am

The plane pitched and that's why people fall, except those who managed to cling on to the ropes that hang on the wall (according to an article on afp.com).
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sat May 10, 2003 2:25 am

AFP says that on the IL-76 only the flight deck is pressurized, not the cargo compartment. Can somebody confirm that?

It would explain the low cruising altitude 7000 feet.

The plane is not Russian, but Ukrainian - owned by "Ukrainian department of defense" - that must be Ukrainian Air Force.

Everything is quite strange judged to ordinary standards. But then we must recognize that we are talking about a country which has been fighting a never ending civil war for decades.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
petertenthije
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sat May 10, 2003 2:27 am

The IL-76 hold can be presurrized, but if need be it can be depressurized as well. The cockpit is seperated from the hold, so depressurizing the hold won't depressurize the cockpit.
Attamottamotta!
 
carduelis
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sat May 10, 2003 2:39 am

I feel that Ben's contribution was most 'accurate' . . .

At 7000 feet nobody would be sucked out, they would have fallen out, look at the picture in the following which shows the size of the ramp doors.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1090179,00.html
Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
clipper471
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sat May 10, 2003 8:47 am

Anyone survive in the cabin?
 
JETPILOT
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sat May 10, 2003 11:43 am

What's this bullshit of people being sucked out.... they were blown out.

No sucking going on here.

JET
 
dab920
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sat May 10, 2003 12:10 pm

Surely it depends on your definition of blowing and sucking? My definition is that if you are being pulled forward by a vacuum of air in front of you, then that is sucking. If you are being blown by a mass of air from behind you then that's blowing.

Whether you were blown or sucked depends where in the cabin you were standing. If you were by the doors, then you would have been blown from the air mass behind you rushing out more than being sucked. If you were standing near the cockpit, then there is no air mass behind you, and if you are forced forward then it is by the air mass infront of you sucking you along as it escapes out the gapiing hole in the fuselage.
 
JETPILOT
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sat May 10, 2003 4:31 pm

No... therees no debating this. But nice try.

A rapid expansion of gas (air is a gas) is an explosion. The people were blown out of the airplane. No 2 ways about it.

JET

 
Markus
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sat May 10, 2003 4:49 pm

 Big thumbs upDab920,
I can't help but commend you on your excellent definitions on the differences between blowing and sucking. I have to admit, though, I laughed out loud during many of the sentences... Innocent
Cheers,
Markus

Work smart
Not hard
 
backfire
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sat May 10, 2003 4:59 pm

I still don't believe that so many people were blown/sucked from the aircraft without there being another contributing element.

I wonder if the incident resulted in an imbalance in the aircraft - perhaps causing it to pitch up, made worse if people were falling to the rear? I see that the survivor reports (if accurate) say that the crew told people to move to the front of the Il-76 while all this was going on.

Can the crew see the cabin from the cockpit and realise what was happening? If not, did they tell the passengers to move because there was a 'door open' alarm. Or did they see that the aircraft was becoming increasingly out of balance and try to shift the load forward to keep the jet flying?

Too bizarre.
 
JETPILOT
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sat May 10, 2003 5:52 pm

Do you have to tilt the barrel of a shotgun down when you fire it so the pellets come out?

JET
 
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sat May 10, 2003 6:23 pm

Here is what Yahoo France says: it was an Il 76 cargo plane, converted (like many others in Africa) into passenger plane, transporting people from Kinshasa into a diamant city. Some people were sitting with seatbelts but lots of them were transported with the luggage at the rear of the cabin, without any seatbelts or any other security.

After 45 minutes, the rear cargo door opened at 10.000m (33.000 feet) and people were sucked out. The pilot brought the plane back into Kinshasa and landed safely.

Research is going on with helicopters to find the bodies. Different numbers are given for casualties and we will probably never know how many people died. Only seven bodies are reported to be found yet.

The article in French below.

All our thoughts to the victims and their families.

KINSHASA (AP) - Plusieurs dizaines de passagers d'un avion-cargo ont probablement trouvé la mort après l'ouverture de la porte arrière de l'appareil dans le ciel de la République démocratique du Congo (RDC, ex-Zaïre).

Le nombre de victimes est incertain. Deux responsables de l'aéroport international de Kinshasa ont déclaré à l'Associated Press, sous couvert de l'anonymat, que 129 personnes avaient semble-t-il été aspirées hors de l'avion et auraient donc ainsi été précipités vers une mort certaine. Un troisième responsable a ensuite divisé ce chiffre par deux, soulignant que le bilan pourrait être difficile à établir, la liste des passagers étant incomplète.

Des hélicoptères effectuent des recherches et apparemment sept corps ont été retrouvés.

La porte de l'appareil de fabrication russe, un Iliouchine 76, s'est ouverte à 10.000 mètres d'altitude dans les environs de la ville de Mbuji-Mayi dans le sud du pays, a affirmé un porte-parole du gouvernement congolais, Kikaya Bin Karubi. Il a rapporté que le décès de sept personnes avait été confirmé et précisé que les autorités enquêtaient pour déterminer s'il y avait d'autres victimes.

La porte arrière de l'appareil s'est ouverte environ trois quarts d'heure après le décollage jeudi soir. Le pilote a réussi à faire demi-tour et à revenir se poser à Kinshasa, selon le ministre congolais de la Défense, Irung Awan. On ignore comment la porte a pu s'ouvrir en plein vol, alors que le temps était clément. On ignorait également combien de personnes se trouvaient dans l'appareil, et combien disposaient d'un siège et d'une ceinture.

Les avions en Afrique sont souvent bondés. Il s'agit parfois d'avions cargos modifiés ayant peu de sièges, dans lesquels s'entassent les passagers au milieu des bagages à l'arrière de l'appareil.

Celui-ci avait apparemment été affrété pour transporter des membres de la police et leurs familles entre Kinshasa et Lubumbashi, ville diamantifère dans le sud-est du pays.

L'Iliouchine 76, aux couleurs de la compagnie "Ukrainian Cargo Airlines", se trouvait vendredi sur une piste de l'aéroport de Kinshasa. La porte arrière était effectivement absente.

Neuf rescapés en état de choc étaient soignés pour des blessures légères à l'hôpital général de Kinshasa, a précisé le Dr Kabamba Mbwebwe, médecin chef du service des urgences. "Ils étaient traumatisés et parlaient de leurs bagages qui volaient partout", a-t-il déclaré dans un entretien téléphonique. "La porte s'est ouverte et l'avion s'est dépressurisé. Beaucoup ont été aspirés à l'extérieur."

L'Iliouchine 76 est un quadrimoteur gros porteur, qui servait au transport militaire pour l'armée soviétique au début des années 70. Il est largement utilisé dans le monde pour le transport civil, particulièrement en Afrique, au Moyen-Orient et en Asie. Quarante-sept accidents ont été recensés avec ce modèle qui ont fait 668 morts, selon le site Internet d'Aviation Safety Network consacré à la sécurité du transport aérien.

Le 19 février, un Iliouchine 76 s'était écrasé en Iran, faisant 275 morts, dont plus de 200 soldats d'élite. Un mois plus tôt, un autre appareil du même type s'était écrasé à l'atterrissage au Timor-Oriental, tuant les six personnes à bord.

Les habitants de Kinshasa ont encore un souvenir douloureux de l'accident du 6 janvier 1996 quand un autre avion de fabrication russe, un Antonov, s'était écrasé au décollage sur un marché situé en bout de piste de l'aéroport de Kinshasa. AP

 
backfire
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sat May 10, 2003 6:29 pm

Do you have to tilt the barrel of a shotgun down when you fire it so the pellets come out?


Yes, if there's no explosion. That's exactly the point - you seem to be assuming that there was this sudden massive explosive decompression, but no-one seems entirely convinced that this was the case.

You have to have a big hole to lose 100 people in the first place. And the problem with a big hole is that pressure differences equalise very quickly (maybe too quickly to affect so many people) and less dramatically - your garden hose would be a lot weaker if the pipe was wider.

And this is before you start wondering about whether the aircraft was at an altitude where pressure difference would even have been significant.



[Edited 2003-05-10 11:42:47]
 
larspl
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sat May 10, 2003 9:44 pm

the plane did not crash indeed.

after 45 mins of flight the cargo door fell out because it was held shut with some pieces of rope. (!)
all the pax got sucked out of the cabin because they were sitting in the cargo area, most of them no seats, some of them plastic deckchairs, unsecured to the floor.

crew was left unharmed because the cockpit door was closed and they landed the plane safely (well, as safe as you can land a plane like that)
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clipper471
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sun May 11, 2003 2:28 am

Read in the paper this morning that there have only been 7 "confirmed" deaths. I imagine this number will increase.
 
clipper471
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Sun May 11, 2003 5:19 pm

I imagine that the "incident" is similar to the scene in "Air Force One" when the pressurized cabin door to the bay was blown open, and several staff were blown out by the force of the de-pressurization.
 
LY744
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Mon May 12, 2003 2:50 am

The aircraft belongs to Ukraine Cargo Airways (UCA), not quite the Ukrainian air force, but more like a wholly owned subsidiary of the Ukraine Defense Ministry. They operate Il-76's and -78's (tanker version, which this may have been). They used to do a lot of work in western Europe and North America, including my local airport (see pics below). This makes this incident all the more bizarre as you wouldn't expect this from a carrier with that track record.






LY744.
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delta-flyer
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Mon May 12, 2003 5:41 am

Surely it depends on your definition of blowing and sucking? My definition is that if you are being pulled forward by a vacuum of air in front of you, then that is sucking. If you are being blown by a mass of air from behind you then that's blowing

There is NO technical definition of "blowing and sucking" - these are only descriptive terms. Technically, there is a pressure gradient that causes flow from high to low pressure. If a solid object is placed inside the pressure gradient, then the force acting on the object is equal to its area times the pressure difference. It doesn't matter whether you are at the cockpit door or the cargo door, the physice is the same. However, the magnitude of the pressure gradient may be very different in these two locations.

About the tragic accident in the Congo, one thing is for sure: accidents happen because of a lack of diligence in maintenance and operation.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
Beefmoney
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Mon May 12, 2003 5:48 am

I always thought "blowing" meant that air was being forced AWAY from an object/area. And "Sucking" meant that air was being attracted TO an object/area.

So, depressurization would be "Sucking" because air was being attracted by the lower pressure outside.
 
backfire
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Mon May 12, 2003 6:09 am

Why is such a big deal being made about sucking and blowing? You're just arguing about two sides of the same coin.

Go find a book on basic physics. If you stick high-density air next to low-density air it will naturally equalise. And if you're in the middle, you'll sense the high-density air as "blow" and the low-density air as "suck".

It's complete nonsense to claim that the Il-76 incident involved one rather than the other.
 
yak42
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Mon May 12, 2003 6:11 am

They say over 250 people may have been killed in the more upto date BBC report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3016939.stm
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Mon May 12, 2003 6:13 am

Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
clipper471
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Mon May 12, 2003 7:31 am

Will we ever know the number killed? Was there even a passenger manifest?

Flyingbronco05 the link that "was already posted her awhile ago" was posted more than 7 hours AFTER this thread.
 
ben
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Mon May 12, 2003 7:35 am

Will we ever know the number killed? Was there even a passenger manifest?

Unlikely... and no. There is almost never a manifest for these flights. They are pseudo-military-charters anyway. No chance.
 
mandala499
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Mon May 12, 2003 4:19 pm

I've heard some of these flights are just like buses... you pay, you go on board, sitting, standing, no one cares, as long as it's not overweight, they'll cram is as many people as they can.

On Sucking or Blowing... "Sucked through the door" and "Blown out of the plane"  Smile If there are no difference in pressure, then they fell out. But to have 250 people falling out ? Must be difficult unless a mad man decided to point guns at people !

Such a tragedy !

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
backfire
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RE: Crash In Congo?

Tue May 13, 2003 1:30 am

Well according to the Ukrainian ministry of defence, the whole thing is a complete fabrication anyway. The aircraft returned, made a safe emergency landing, and there were no casualties.

That clears that up then.