keesje
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British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Tue May 13, 2003 4:15 am

I can see BA ordering A330-200s in not too distant future.

B772s are too big on many smaller point to point markets.

B763s are getting inefficient :
-too cramped for new Club (therefore product inconsistency)
-too narrow for 8 abreast economy (well, nice for passengers)
-too wide for a little wider Traveler Plus seats (6 abreast = too wide)
-power/weight restriction (no personal video) product inconsistency.
-poor range (no Asia / US West Coast) options
-poor cargo capacity (no LD2)

I believe they will not wait another 6 years (for an uncertain 7E7) and follow their biggest competitors AF, LH and KLM.


Boeing die-hards, better get used to this ............ Joking..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
777236ER
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Tue May 13, 2003 4:16 am

With all the money BA is raking in?

5-10 years down the line, MAYBE.

Still, in that time frame, can anyone say 7E7?
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donder10
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Tue May 13, 2003 4:48 am

777236ER,
do you know if the flights to Dar Es Salaam and Kampala have heavy payload restrictions?Both flights must be towards the end of BA's 763's range.
Currently BA send the 767s on long-haul to:
Accra(rumoured to be upgraded to 772)
Dar Es Salaam
Kampla/Entebbe
Nassau and Grand Cayman
Detroit?
Charlotte and Baltimore .
Tel Aviv.
Any others?


I can't see BA ordering 332s for a while given that their 763s aren't too old either plus a large % of their 767s are for Euro routes anyway.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Tue May 13, 2003 5:20 am

The latest BA 767 was delivered in 1998, that makes it 5 years old, brand new. Infact, the 767's fill an important role in the fleet, filling in on routes too big for a 777. Namely a handful of destinations in the Middle East, Africa and US East coast along with trunk European routes.

As for A330, i can't see BA orderin a new type for another 3 or 4 years, the same speculation surrounds the A380 also. Wait and see.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
DoorsToManual
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Tue May 13, 2003 5:26 am

Providenciales, afaik, is also a 76 destination. ciao.
 
Britair
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Tue May 13, 2003 5:36 am

Rod Eddington announced in the BA News (internal staff newspaper) last week that the entire 767 fleet (21 aircraft) will be phased out from 2005. The aim was to eliminate one more fleet type to streamline operations. BA is in final negotiations with the RAF to sell the entire 767 fleet as airborne tankers.

So the 767 fleet IS going, and at this stage there is no intention to replace them in that category.
 
LHR340
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Tue May 13, 2003 5:48 am

I doubt they will get any A330s ...and that is sad news to hear about the 767 to be phased out  Sad I was just beginning to like 767's....Doesn't BA use most of them on high pax loads to Europe? such as Geneva/Zurich & Prague...

LHR340
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David_itl
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Tue May 13, 2003 7:10 am


What will happen to MAN-JFK then....will AA pick it up? I doubt BA would want to convert a 777 for a more appropriate configuration for here, unless they are going to add 1 or more long-haul destinations from MAN post 2005 so that a mini-fleet of 777s would be based.

David
 
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ATA L1011
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Tue May 13, 2003 7:17 am

The 767-300 ER can make the US west coast, Scandanavian use to run it from LA to Stockholm non stop which is aboutthe same distance and London.
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cedarjet
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Tue May 13, 2003 7:31 am

I can see the A330 in BA colours if the 767 leaves the fleet (and they aren't all 1998 vintage - some are a lot old, the ones I've been have felt old, much vibration and noise etc). The 757s are going as well, and I think they'll be replaced by A321s - I'm sure BA are getting lots of eval info on the A321 from British Med and GB Airways. The A330 will work it's way in between the A321 and 777. And in a way the 777 and 744 will eventually be boxed in by the A380 as well.

(I'm slightly pro-Airbus cos I prefer their products these days but have no real agenda but...) It's weird to talk about BA flying such a lot of Airbus - I think the A380 is inevitable and so is something to fit in between the A321 and 777 (A330 basically - the airlines probably share my scepticism that the 7E7 is anything more than the Sonic Cruiser v2.0). And the entire BA narrowbody fleet will be Airbus when the last 737-400s go. This is BA we're talking, you know, "Boeing Airways". Can Boeing regain their pre-eminence?
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Tue May 13, 2003 7:56 am

Providing the 7E7 get's off the ground and starts flying, it's in with a shout.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
ba299
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 2:37 am

I don't think that BA will buy the A330. Some internal voice say that in the future there are the 7E7 and a few B777-300ER to replace the B747 and some B777-200LR for the flight to SYD.
 
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yyz717
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 2:47 am

It does not make sense for any carrier to be adding the 332 as a new type, when the 7E7 will enter service in 2008 and offer much improved economics. Also, there will be big discounts for all new 7E7 launch customers. The BA 763 fleet can certainly be operated efficiently until the 7E7 enters service.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
G-CIVP
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 2:51 am

The old "will BA buy A330 debate!!"

If anything BA will buy more B777's for long haul ops. Isn't the B767 being replaced by the A321?
 
David_itl
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 2:55 am


757s are being replaced by the A321. Forgot to notice that poor range (no Asia / US West Coast) options was listed in the original post. They did MAN-LAX non-stop in 1993/1994 on a 5 times weekly basis.

David
 
donder10
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 3:18 am

Long-term BA could have 1 main long-haul fleet type:777 with the 7E7 suplementing it on thinner routes ie Africa,Caspian and CLT etc and maybe the A380 for thick routes eg Asian and Australasia+JNB.

321s will replace both the 752 and Euro 763s won't they?
 
Udo
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 3:35 am

SAS doesn't fly any more B767s to the West Coast. Their last two B763 long range services are OSL-Newark and CPH-Washington, the only West Coast destination is SEA served by A343s. LAX is no longer served.

Of course you can fly the B763 on West Coast routes, but they are always restricted in payload. LTU once operated B763ERs from DUS to LAX and faced payload restrictions, or ask Delta why their Stuttgart-ATL service is affected by several fuel stops during the year. And ask Continental why they don't fly B764ERs from Houston to Europe...

B767-300ER/400ER = restrictions
A330-200 = no restrictions


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Udo
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sllevin
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 3:48 am

Of course you can fly the B763 on West Coast routes, but they are always restricted in payload. LTU once operated B763ERs from DUS to LAX and faced payload restrictions,

I suspect that's because LTU was running a high-density configuration. Operating 2/3 class service (i.e., with about 218-222 pax) LAX-DUS/FRA shouldn't be an issue at all.

Steve
 
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ATA L1011
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 4:14 am

I know Udo I said "use to" fly to LAX, and Sllevin your correct but LTU was running single class 763er's to LAX.

[Edited 2003-05-16 21:19:04]
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TF-FIW
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 6:35 am

BA does fly the 763 to CCS-BOG too.
It's still a a good flexible workhorse both for longhaul or shorthaul operation.
Furthermore, I doubt that BA will buy the A330 as she is too heavy for shorthaul/midhaul operation. Hence not profitable for high density shorthaul routes like GVA, FRA, DUS etc.
Rgds
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 7:08 am

or ask Delta why their Stuttgart-ATL service is affected by several fuel stops during the year

huh? Why this flight... it's not their longest (ATL-FCO, JFK-IST, etc are longer; and do not typically run into fuel trouble) nor does it fly any atypical routing which may compromise range, so you may want to consider your source on this one....
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eg777er
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 7:36 am

It all depends on the route requirements.

If memory serves, at the moment there are two 'pools' of pilots at British Airways - those who fly long-haul routes, and those who fly short-haul routes.

This doesn't really affect the 767 pilots, as they are the only pilot group who do two sets of work - shorthaul such as LHR-GVA and longhaul such as Accra etc.

Now, if BA wanted to make the A330 a 'shorthaul-only' aircraft then they could get some increased efficiency with having a massive shorthaul fleet of A319/320/321/330, presumably with the same group of pilots qualified on all.

However, this is unlikely to happen as BA do not need the volume on a regular basis on shorthaul.

Something occured to me-- what about a hub in Manchester. Use A330s for transatlantic, African and Middle Eastern services from that airport, taking some of the transit traffic (and therefore pressure) off Heathrow, opening up that airport to more O&D traffic from London (which will be in high demand with a potential 2012 Olympics). It would represent the most dramatic shift in BA corporate philosophy ever; but Rod seems to have the appetite for change!
 
petertenthije
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 7:40 am

I do not consider it likely that another hub will be formed in Manchester. Not on the size you are talking about. If BA wanted to do that, they would probably have done that a year ago to combine it with the Commonwealth games.
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WiLdmanVzla
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 8:00 am

Perhaps two years ago I saw a BA B767-300 in CCS doing a nonstop flight to LGW... now they do it with a B777... but those planes for sure have the range!!!!!

*******
 
KFRG
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 8:09 am

Udo,
And you don't think A330's flying to the WC are not payload restricted either? ANY aircraft is going to be weight restricted at some point. Why don't you go and ask Swiss why they don't fly their A332's to LAX, and MD-11's instead? In your logic:

B777: No restrictions

A330: Restrictions

-Tom
 
ScottB
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 8:26 am

Did you ever think CO wasn't flying 767-400ER's to Europe because there isn't a good match in capacity right now? They fly the 767-400ER from EWR to HNL, which is only 50 nm shorter than IAH-CDG or IAH-AMS. They aren't even flying IAH-FRA at present.
 
trey
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 9:33 am

BA does not serve CLT anymore
 
gigneil
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 9:50 am

The A330-200 certainly doesn't have any weight restrictions from most if not all of Europe to LAX, SAN, or SFO.

The 333, on the other hand, probably would.

The MD-11 is a larger aircraft than the A330-200, especially in LX's configuration.

N
 
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RayChuang
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 11:27 am

I really doubt BA will get the A330-200.

Especially since the LHR-SFO and LHR-LAX routes are still quite popular, and the A332's seating capacity--especially with BA's long-range seating arrangement of First, Club World, World Traveller Plus and World Traveller seating classes--will really cut down on the seating capacity of the A332.

The US West Coast flights from LHR are better-served by a combination of 747-400 and 777-200ER planes.
 
keesje
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 4:33 pm

Don´t understand why some people think the 777 willdo for BA.

Why do you think CX, KLM, MH, AF, SQ and others selected both 772 and 332 ?

Because the combination its makes the network flexible.

Both have good range, cargo capasity and economics.

A332 is a 250 seater (2 class) 777 a 320 seater (2 class)

IMO BA will be doing their homework & conclude what others concluded before them and combine the 2 winners ; 772 and 332...


"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
G-CIVP
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 5:38 pm

"Don´t understand why some people think the 777 willdo for BA."

Its quite simple. B777 and B747/4 for long haul routes. Airbus A319/A320/A321 for short haul 'Europe routes. There isn't a need for an A330.

American Airlines have thinned out their fleet, e.g. disposal of the MD-11, Fokker 100 as the economics of operating varied types doesn't stack up, e.g. carrying spares, different ratings/licences for crew, ground engineers, etc.

 
godbless
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 5:45 pm

Udo,
SAS still also operates ARN-EWR with the 763. I am not sure about any further routes though.

Max
 
godbless
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 5:46 pm

And how could I forget... ARN-ORD is also a 767.

Max
 
B747-4U3
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 7:21 pm

I don't think BA will get the 332.

Most of the routes served by the 763s now are African routes- a continentent in which air travel is growing rapidly, and thus, by the time the 763s are phased out the routes would need upgrading to a larger a.c. anyway.

 
keesje
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 9:28 pm

Either
- BA doesn´t want to fly thin routes anymore after the 767 or
- the 777 is just fine and economical for the thin routes

Both seem not in line with BA network strategy.
Apart from this markets seems not to be growing steep at this moment  Smile(.) and frequency seems to be important for business travel.

Looking at AF, LH, KL, DL, AA, UA, Co, and .. well everybodies fleet composition a 230- 250 seater will come, just count on it.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
777236ER
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 9:34 pm

- BA doesn´t want to fly thin routes anymore after the 767 or
- the 777 is just fine and economical for the thin routes

Both seem not in line with BA network strategy.


The first does! BA would be very happy if they could justify moving to a A32X and 777/747 fleet only.
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keesje
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 9:42 pm

There always be thinner routes or business demand for 2 flight a day instead of 1, or 3 flight a day instead of 2.

BA can not ignore that demand .. if others don´t .. and they don´t ..

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Udo
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 10:37 pm

- I didn't compare the B777 to the A332 but the B763 to the A332 in terms of restrictions on WC flights. Maybe some people should try to read more carefully?
- I know about the STR-ATL fuel stops because my source is based at STR and can follow DL's operations daily. If I had a source at IST or FCO I probably would get information from there too.
- Swiss flies MD-11s to LAX because they need the capacity. Why should they use a 200 seater when they need a 240 seater (both LX configurations)?
- It’s right SAS doesn’t start A330 service on ARN-EWR until end of June, ARN-ORD has been operated by A330s since April 26.
- LTU used two class B763ERs to LAX in the past years, if you believe it or not.
- I'm quite sure Continental will never fly the B764 to Europe, let’s just follow their operations in the coming years and then we will see who is right. If they do so, they are restricted. No demand for capacity out of IAH? I don’t think so. And btw, have you ever thought about that there might be less cargo demand on a HNL flight than on a European service? They certainly don’t fly with full payload on EWR-HNL.



Regards
Udo
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G-CIVP
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sat May 17, 2003 10:48 pm

I think you can't lump AA in with UA with UA. Its concentrating on B767/B777 and A300 for US domestic and Caribbean routes. United fleet configuration in comparison to the current market (short to medium term) doesn't add up. Look whats happening; its selling B744's as it can't get bums on seats. Again, it is simply uneconomical to operate too many variants.
 
sllevin
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sun May 18, 2003 1:35 am

And btw, have you ever thought about that there might be less cargo demand on a HNL flight than on a European service?

Actually, there is. In fact, for years it was said that the 'Pineapple Express' flights ONLY made money because of cargo. I still believe that's true today.

And cargo brings up an interesting factor in regards to ANY operation. If you want to carry a lot of cargo and a full load of passengers, you will NOT get maximum range. So it's all a balance. A 767-300 can, according to Boeing, make LAX-ATH. That's assuming no cargo at all, or course. The more cargo you add into that equation, the shorter the range becomes. Toss in a lot of non-standard weather and LAX-DUS would become LAX-SNN-DUS, I agree.

Steve
 
lapper
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sun May 18, 2003 2:16 am

david_intl,

MAN-JFK is currently operated by BA Citiexpress, don't know if this would affect them or not.

Udo,

MAN-EWR on CO is timetabled as a 764 for the summer months acording to Amadeus, don't know if anyone can back this up?
 
Udo
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sun May 18, 2003 5:11 am

Lapper,

I forgot to add a 'IAH', of course I was only talking about B764 service to Europe from Houston. I know well their numerous B764 long haul services from EWR.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
dc-10 levo
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sun May 18, 2003 5:25 am

I don't like the BA livery on the A330, but I think this deal will go ahead in the next 5-10 years.

There are lots of airlines flying the A330 nowadays, it's very likely that BA will join them.

DC-10
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sun May 18, 2003 5:52 am

I think this deal will go ahead in the next 5-10 years

What sense would it make for them to buy "aged" A330s in 10 years when they can probably have a more advanced/capable/efficient model by that time frame?

It's basically the same conclusion first-rate airlines are currently facing when choosing the A330 over the 767.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
CX747
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sun May 18, 2003 7:01 am

I don't see BA ordering the A330 when the 767s will be around until at least 2005 and within a year or two of that the 7E7 will become available. The A330 would be an odd duckling in a long haul fleet dominated by 747-400s and 777-200ERs. The 7E7 would fit much better into the long-haul stable.
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: British Airways To Buy Airbus A330-200s?

Sun May 18, 2003 8:12 am

The A330 would be an odd duckling in a long haul fleet dominated by 747-400s and 777-200ERs. The 7E7 would fit much better into the long-haul stable.

Not really, the A330 would have cockpit commonality with the A320/A321/A319 fleet. But the downside is that the A330 would be too heavy on European routes.
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