Douglas DC-9
Topic Author
Posts: 291
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2001 2:39 am

NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 8:35 am

As I'm sure you've already heard, Northwest just announced 6 non-stop flights to 6 locations out of Milwaukee in an attempt to kill Midwest Airlines formally Midwest Express. The only reason they are doing this is to kill off Midwest. Northworst sees Midwest Airlines as a weak and crippled carrier and will do anything to put it out of business. It would be different if Northworst was actually trying to play the honest game and not try to move into KMKE but they just see these times as an opportunity to kill off a competitor. They've done it before in the 70s and 80s and they are at it again! What scares me is that since the airline industry is at its worst point in history people are so worried about saving a buck they won't fly an airline with a higher price. Let's face it... Midwest is not the cheapest airline and in a world were something like a $40.00 price will change what airline a man will fly, even if the service is much worse! Milwaukee's Scott Walker is now giving Midwest money to stay alive, but why pay to help keep their heart beating if there is a chance they won't be around a year from now? But for those of you who haven't flown Midwest... fly them! They truly are "The best care in the air." All it takes is one flight to tell you!
You guys and gals tell me what you think about what I said and what are you opinions on this topic? I am outraged over this!

Thanks Much,
Douglas DC-9-32
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 8:53 am

There is already a thread started on this.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 9:05 am

It would seem that NW's "enlightenment" to an urgent need to ramp up service at MKE with new non-stop routes that "just happen" to be served by YX is in reality a predatory move. If/when YX goes away, I'm betting that NW will immediately "discover" that their need to offer non-stops from MKE to their non-hub cities wasn't as urgent as they imagined it to be.

Sad but true fact concerning YX is that if there are not enough customers willing to pay the costs of the superior product they offer (or at least offered in the past) then YX must adapt to the realities of the market or they're gone -- regardless of the effects of NW's MKE strategy. From all indications, there are -- sadly -- not enough customers willing to pay the costs associated with the level of service for which YX is known; that will probably not change anytime soon, if ever.  Sad
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 9:10 am

Why are you already writing them off? NWA did back in the 90's have a mini hub in MKE and both Midwest and NWA operated side by side. And we are only talking 6 new flights and of course the service to the hubs. Also the six new flights are only once a day. Think about this also if NWA see an opportunity then others could be looking as well to expand, namely AirTran?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
azo
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 9:59 am

RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 9:42 am

Wow, thats pretty clever there, calling them Northworst. Think of that one yourself?
Kalamazoozoozoozoozoozoozoo
 
mnsourcer
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 9:49 am

DouglasDC9

Although I am completely in agreement that it does appear as though NW might be working to hasten the demise of YX, and I certainly would hate to see YX disappear (or be taken over). I really do love that airline! Lets remember that their ability to do this is part of free enterprise. Ultimately, as you have eluded to, it is the consumers responsibility to keep YX alive as it would be with any company. If Midwest can't maintain its consumer's brand loyalty over $40 bucks, then they must give in to their competitor. That $40 buys some more room, better service, those delicious onboard baked cookies. The extra room not withstanding, these things are not as important to a consumer when the economy isn't at its best. That extra $40 is going to be more important, think of all the cookies I can buy with that!

I am not saying that NW isn't being predatory here. I am just saying that YX's business plan is going to hinder its ability to compete. I still hope that Milwaukee's citizens will rally around YX and help it through the tough road ahead. They can make the difference with their dollars, there is where the focus really needs to be.

By the way... I will still fly YX when ever I can... but flights are limited from MSP.
 
deltairlines
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 9:55 am

It's pure capitalism. If Northwest can help its bottom line out by taking out a vulnerable carrier, then why not? Who knows if NW is going to show a commitment to MKE. I personally think they could get a market there, as I would prefer to take NW over YX, but who knows. It is the market that drives what actions any business takes.

Jeff
 
delta-flyer
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 9:55 am

Can someone please offer the legal definition of "predatory"?

Is any low-priced competition predatory? Is it predatory for one business to try to put a competitor out of business?

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
Theiler
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 11:31 am

Anyone know what MidEx has to do to get some gate space at the Midfield terminal in DTW?
 
luv2fly
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 11:36 am

Midwest served DTW for a while back in the late 80's early 90's. Also numerous times I have tried to fly them out of CLE and because of really lousy schedules I have never had the chance. Maybe if they corrected the holes in there schedule they could attract more customers.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Guest

RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 11:47 am

Anyone know what MidEx has to do to get some gate space at the Midfield terminal in DTW?

Midwest Airlines is only interested in expanding into cities in which it will receive subsidies...
 
Guest

RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 11:48 am

Midwest Airlines is only interested in expanding into cities in which it will receive subsidies...

Then Midwest and AirTran are the perfect match!
 
tekelberry
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 11:52 am

The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel ran a frontpage story about it this morning.

The online version can be found at http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/may03/140212.asp
 
luv2fly
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 11:58 am

Well I think it is a good article shows both sides. Also points out what I have been saying, is that NWA is beefing up in MKE to send a message to AirTran that they will not give them MKE. If Midwest is so good at what they do then what do they have to worry about? Although I have heard that they are not as good onboard as they use to be, service wise and also the food they fed you.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 12:06 pm

"Can someone please offer the legal definition of "predatory"?"

Sure. When a company uses it's deep pockets to undersell the competition to drive it out of business then, after succeeding, raising prices to the old level. This has been tested in several courts over the years. Remember BN MkI? They failed but still lost the case to WN.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
tekelberry
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 12:07 pm

In today's economy, people aren't going to care about the level of service they recieve. All they are worried about is getting from point A to point B using the least amount of money.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 12:12 pm

Tekelberry you hit the nail on the head.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Trvlr
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 1:45 pm

Turning this issue into an argument over whether Northwest is "playing fair" with their expansion in MKE totally misses the point, I think. Arguing over such particulars is a waste of time. What really matters to the people of Milwaukee is this move will affect them down the road. Northwest may have just been carrying out the duties of free-market capitalism with their latest move, but does the label of predatory or non-predatory really matter? If NWA succeeds in shutting down Midwest, then you can bet that Milwaukee won't retain the level of service it had before the fall of YX and the NW expansion. The city would become the vassal of the cartel carriers.

In short, Milwaukee should do everything within reason to keep Midwest alive and the competing carriers at bay. If not, Wisconsinites will soon find themselves bereft of decent travel options, and at the mercy of bigger carriers like Northwest. This is certainly not an outcome that benefits Milwaukee in the long term.

Aaron G.
 
nwacrew
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 1:45 pm

Let's not forget that Northwest has been serving Milwaukee since 1927, so it's not as if they are suddenly invading Midwest's turf.

Also, Milwaukee is Northwest's #2 revenue producing city outside the three domestic hubs (Seattle being #1), so it makes sense to beef-up flights out of MKE.

 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 2:21 pm

Northwest's moves are unlikely to intimidate AirTran, should FL want to expand at MKE. They hub at Atlanta right under Uncle Leo's nose, for goodness sake; they won't fear Big Red any more than they fear the Big Bad Widget.

AirTran's likeliest expansion possibilities at MKE, I think, are continued growth on the ATL route and Florida. Northwest isn't going to make money serving Orlando against FL, they might as well not bother throwing the money away. It's a low-yield route to begin with, and FL does very well with its many links from MCO to medium-size cities.

There's currently no low-fare service between Milwaukee and the New York area, and AirTran has been linking medium-size markets to LGA. If they entered MKE-LGA with two daily 717's, they'd have twice as business-friendly a schedule as Northwest offers. And of course Midwest offers more dailies than that on the route now. And of course AirTran is just starting to link Milwaukee with the DC area, so NY would be logical next step.

JIm
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
captcjmac
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 2:25 pm

The thing that really makes me upset about NW is the fact that IF Midwest were to go under, NW would pull out all of these non-stop flights that it is now adding, forcing everybody to go through MSP/DTW/MEM again like they do now. They have every right to do it but this is certainly a David vs. Goliath situation. I know everybody in MKE is rooting for David and I just hope that they will stay loyal to Midwest and not sell-out to NWPissed
 
Braniff727
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 9:37 pm

Um, yeah so I guess the government should come in here and stop competition. It isn't fair that one business is trying to make money! HOW DARE THEY!

I personally think this is less about Midwest and more about AirTran and United. Let's wait to see how this is marketed by Northwest. MKE, being only an hour North of Chicago could be a way to hurt UA and AA by offering cheaper fares at an airport with much less congestion just a short drive away.

Either way, NW may seem like a bully, but Southwest and jetBlue can do the same thing. It's called smart business, and staying ahead of your competitors.
Climbing
 
jeffrito
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 10:23 pm

Several posts imply that free markets have good outcomes in the airline business. The airline business, like utilities, agriculture, health care, and several others (for different reasons), is not a great example of an ideal free market.

It has to do with the very high fixed costs and the tendency toward natural monopolies in smaller markets. I'm no expert, but there is plenty of scholarly literature on the subject, not to mention the obvious real-world experiences.

This is why predatory practices in this industry have legitmately been recognized in courts.
 
luv2fly
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Tue May 13, 2003 10:41 pm

Again like the article mentioned it is number 2 after SEA for all non hub cities in revenue! So why not increase the level of service if the market is they for them. If people love Midwest they will continue to support them. If people want NWA they now have more choices, although only once a day and only to 6 cities.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Tom in NO
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Wed May 14, 2003 12:00 am

If you want to look at a company that thrives on setting up shop, and quashing the little guy, look no further than Wal-Mart. I'm not their biggest fan, especially when I see what they've done to the small businessman. But, I will say this: rare is the time when I go into Wal-Mart, and leave needing something I couldn't find there.

That said, wasn't deregulation designed to encourage free market competition? I think we all (those of us who were around when dereg went into effect) had the feeling that it would create a "survival of the fittest" atmosphere in the airline industry. After all, AA successfully got rid of BN, the PA/NA merger was a joke, CO's been through 2 bankruptcies...the list goes on.

Now, as I feel about Wal-Mart, I can say the same about Midwest Express. Will I be sorry to see them go, if and when that happens.....of course I will. But that is what the market is like these days. We said it over 20 years ago, and it holds true today.

Tom in NO (at MSY)
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
hammer
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Wed May 14, 2003 4:27 am

Why don't we talk about the new paint job and there DC-9 fleet some more too...
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Wed May 14, 2003 5:49 am

I like the new paint job and the DC-9's need to be retired as they are gas hogs. Also they should get back to what they did best, service! And have fares $10.00 over NW each way, if they are as good as people said Midwest is/was then they should be able to sell themselves. And also Midwest has a focus city or small hub in OMA and correct me if I am wrong MCI? Start building those up, why have all your eggs in one basket, i.e. MKE.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
mnsourcer
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Wed May 14, 2003 6:36 am

The thing that really makes me upset about NW is the fact that IF Midwest were to go under, NW would pull out all of these non-stop flights that it is now adding, forcing everybody to go through MSP/DTW/MEM again like they do now

Although I know NW has some bad history in this arena, this is still a huge speculation. But wait... so is this entire thread.
 
redngold
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Wed May 14, 2003 6:43 am

Luv2Fly --

Midwest was forced to downsize its operation at CLE. YX used to offer mainline service, but due to gate leases (it shared a multi-use gate with America West and charters) and competition from COEx, downgraded to Skyway. At least we get 328JETs now, because the downgrade had been to B1900s for a while.

redngold

[Edited 2003-05-13 23:43:57]
Up, up and away!
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Wed May 14, 2003 6:47 am

So what? It's called competition, and in a free market the ultimate benefit goes to the consumer. If a critical mass of consumers don't support Midwest, well, they go away.
 
Continental
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Wed May 14, 2003 8:51 am

Competition!? My ass, try domination! NWA rules their hubs, and if someone tries to get in, it's goodbye charlie for that airline. What do you mean they are not all of a sudden invading MKEs turf!? Yeah they are, 6 new flights! I'd call that a miny invasion! NWA will always try to compete, they are the bully, and for some reason, they always end up on top.

co
 
sllevin
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Wed May 14, 2003 9:00 am

This is 6 whole flights we're talking about!

If Midwest is SO vulnerable, then it's likely they aren't going to survive. NW is entitled to try and raise its presence in MKE. This is far from cutting Midwest off at the knees.

I'd like to see YX stay in business, but claiming that six flight a day is intended to drive them out of business is ludicrous.

Steve
 
tekelberry
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Wed May 14, 2003 9:09 am

Finally, some cometition in MKE!!

There has been little to no competition for YX's nonstop flights from MKE (except ATL, BWI, MCO). YX thinks they can gauge people who want to fly non stop out of Milwaukee. It's about time for some change.

I still ponder the fact why YX still uses the single-class cabin. Economically, it doesn't make any sense. Businesses and corporations (YX's targeted travelers) are looking for the cheapest way for their employees to travel (once they stop thinking of ways to have them NOT travel in the first place), not the most "deluxe" way for them to get there. Also, if it saves the traveler money, I doubt they would have a problem connecting through a hub. That's why the "elite" frequent flyer programs exist in the first place, to reward business travelers. Instead, YX has high airfares for what? Some leather seats? Definitely not worth it IMO (for those of you who think I am talking out of my a**, know that I have been on YX on numerous occasions when the economy wasn't as terrible as it is today).

If they could offer this kind of service while, at the same time, keeping their fares low, I think it's great. But I doubt that is at all possible.

If YX wants to survive, which I sincerely hope they do, they need to start making some serious changes.
 
luv2fly
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Wed May 14, 2003 9:21 am

Could it also be the fact that NWA knows where the passengers want to fly to via the joint Frequent Flyer agreement that Midwest and NWA both had and is ending at the end of this month? Also how long has Midwest enjoyed being the dominant airline in MKE? Well like Dylan said, "The times they are a changing!"
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Continental
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Wed May 14, 2003 11:00 am

That's like Continental Airlines starting 15 routes out of Dallas Love!

co
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Thu May 15, 2003 6:00 am

Continental, why is it such a personal issue for you? Idealistic youth is certainly different than free market capitalism...

CAL tried 6-8 flights a day out of Dallas Love about 2yrs ago on RJs...to compete w/ American's reduced pax F100s, which were competing with the now defunct Legend Airlines...

Braniff was gone before you were born, but there are some very "distinct" rules in this industry. Great Planes will be next...
 
rj777
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Thu May 15, 2003 7:22 am

Maybe they'll (Midwest) make OMA their new hub...
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Thu May 15, 2003 7:26 am

My whole take on this is, why is everyone already counting Midwest out? We are talking about NWA adding a total of 6 flights with a single round trip offered per day! That is all. Am I missing something?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Continental
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Thu May 15, 2003 7:34 am

Essential, have I made this a personal issue?! I don't know what you are talking about, I'm just saying that NWA does like to compete, and it's goals are usually to shut out the other airline completely.

co
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Thu May 15, 2003 7:59 am

All airlines compete! Look at DL/Song going against JetBlue AA and JetBlue And again it is only 6 round trip flight TOTAL!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
deltairlines
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Thu May 15, 2003 8:14 am

What NWA is doing is completely admirable, and I support them 100% on this. The business world is not all hugs and kisses...it's to make money. Simple as that. NWA clearly has perceived Midwest to be a threat to them, and I would concur, as the MKE hub competes directly with MSP and DTW, siphoning some potential NWA passengers away. NWA, like any business, seeks these customers, and will do what it takes to get them if they have the means.

Jeff
 
Ilyushin96M
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Joined: Sat Sep 04, 1999 3:15 am

RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Thu May 15, 2003 8:32 am

I don't think Northwest will succeed, no matter how low their fares go. Midwest is head and shoulders above them in terms of customer service and comfort, plus YX offers more frequent flights to the destinations NW plans to serve from Milwaukee. At YX, they are buckling down, preparing to fight NW tooth and nail to keep them from doing much damage.

As for myself, I've flown many times on both airlines, and would STILL pay extra to fly on YX, even after all the cutbacks in service. I think many YX customers would say the same - at least, I'm hoping they will.
 
A330_DTW
Posts: 357
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RE: New Liveries

Thu May 15, 2003 11:51 am

If K-Mart opened a store in a town where shoppers only had a Saks Fifth Avenue at which to shop, would this be predatory?
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Thu May 15, 2003 12:16 pm

Good analogy. I do think if Midwest service levels had not slipped as of late, NWA would not as quick to come into MKE. Really other than one less seat on the DC9 family of aircraft they both actually offer the same product, transportation!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
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RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Thu May 15, 2003 1:23 pm

Continental,

"I'm just saying that NWA does like to compete, and it's goals are usually to shut out the other airline completely."

Then maybe you're getting the big pic...that's the way a free capitalistic market works...


 
Douglas DC-9
Topic Author
Posts: 291
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2001 2:39 am

RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Sat May 17, 2003 1:32 pm

Thanks for answering ya'll! i didn't think anybody would!

Thanks Much,
DC-9-32
 
A330_DTW
Posts: 357
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 9:29 am

RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Mon May 19, 2003 1:27 am

Most of the large "non-discount" airlines do everything in their power to shut the competition out of their so-called "fortress hubs". Being that MKE is just a short hop from both MSP and DTW, it's no wonder they are moving in; whether it be for the kill or to provide some healthy competition to Midwest.

Interesting to note, however, when a low-fare carrier comes into a market dominated by one airline it's called competition or "alternative choice". When a network carrier goes into a market it's predatory.

At any rate, it gives customers in MKE a choice of non-stope service to some of the most popular LEISURE destinations.
 
Guest

RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Mon May 19, 2003 4:41 am

YX is not all that great. I did not find their seat's to be all that comfortable and the leg room was not that great when I flew them from PHX to MKE last summer. 1st class on HP was far better then YX service was.
 
tekelberry
Posts: 1309
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 6:37 am

RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Mon May 19, 2003 5:56 am

"1st class on HP was far better then YX service was."

Yes, but first class on any airline is ridiculously more expensive than YX's fares.
 
Guest

RE: NWA Trys To Kill MEH...

Mon May 19, 2003 8:42 am

Adult $486.50 YX

$263+150 to upgrade day of= 413 on HP still cheaper then YX

I used June 18th and June 20th to price these two carriers.

So first is not always more. Why buy first in advance. On most days the day of departure first class upgrade is avail and if its not YX is still more. YX service is not worth $200 more in my opinion. Plus HP has a better flight schedule then YX does to Phoenix.