apollo13
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Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Wed May 14, 2003 1:03 pm

Why does qantas use the A330 for cityflyer services and not the 767's?
 
melflyer
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Wed May 14, 2003 1:16 pm

QF use both the A330 and 767 for CityFlyer services as well as other aircraft types. The A330 are the only aircraft to have the CityFlyer logos painted on them.

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AJ
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Wed May 14, 2003 1:21 pm

The 300+ passenger capacity of the A330 is vital to move peak hour loads on the CityFlyer routes. On Perth routes it negates the need for a 747 to carry the load, except during holiday periods.
The 767 and 737 adequately operate the other services.
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Wed May 14, 2003 1:22 pm

Does QF use any of the A330's on international routes? Or does it plan to use any A330's on INTL routes sometime? It seems a bit of a waste to have this type just doing short domestic runs.
 
AJ
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Wed May 14, 2003 1:24 pm

Qantas' order for A330-300s includes internationally configured aircraft to operate regional routes, however with the current Asian downturn it is likely these aircraft will be deferred.
The A330-200s are strictly domestic aircraft with a high density seating configuration.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Wed May 14, 2003 1:27 pm

A332s are domestic, A333s will be international
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ZK-NBT
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Wed May 14, 2003 4:20 pm

Last I heard was that 5 A333's were for international and the other 4 for Domestic.

If it's only 5 International configured A333's I wonder where they will fly?? Asia mainly I guess, any chance for them on Trans Tasman?
 
QFTJT
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Fri May 16, 2003 8:42 pm

>>AJ: The A330-200s are strictly domestic aircraft with a high density seating configuration.

How can you say that an aircraft with over 8,000Km to 11,850 kilometres of range is strictly domestic. I don't think so. Average sector lengths of the worlds A330-200 aircraft is 4000nm. The A330-200 was designed for is long range and the A330-300 for long to medium range. It certainly does not make sense why Qantas are flying them on such short routes. The 737-900 would be better suited to these cityflyer routes.
 
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BNE
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Fri May 16, 2003 8:47 pm

A330-200 are used on the peak Sydney-Melbourne flights, flights to Perth. Sydney-Melbourne is around the third most popular route in the world and Qantas with only Virgin Blue flying 737s can easily fill them up. As Virgin bring on more frequency and large planes then Qantas may downgrade to 767, but for now A330-200 is it.

Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
AJ
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Fri May 16, 2003 8:48 pm

QFTJT, as the thread is about the Qantas A330s I am referring to the Qantas A330-201s, they have been configured purely for domestic operations, a 301 seat A330 is not suitable for long distance flights.
It makes perfect sense to fly them domestically as they are an ideally sized and economical aircraft, Qantas has not taken the high weight and high powered option to make the purchase cheaper.
 
QFTJT
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Fri May 16, 2003 9:06 pm

>> It makes perfect sense to fly them domestically as they are an ideally sized and economical aircraft, Qantas.

It doesn't make sense to fly them domestically. They were never designed for this purpose. It makes more sense to fly the A330-300 domestic as are better suited for domestic operations. The A330 is not in the same category as the A300. Seeing the fleet stands at 4, I don't think this setup will last.
 
Beno
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Fri May 16, 2003 9:25 pm

I'm sure QF management know what they are doing after all they are running the world most profitable airline!
 
QFTJT
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Fri May 16, 2003 9:30 pm

Sure profitable, but I wonder why? AN?

 
Mr.BA
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Fri May 16, 2003 9:48 pm

QFTJT,

Like AJ has pointed out during peak periods on popular routes there is a high demand in seats and the A330 can be configured to seat a certain amount to fit the traffic demand and the A330 is a very economical aircraft to do it, so why not? And as mentioned the A332 Qantas bought were of a lower MTOW and lower thrust-rated version.

the A333s will then do regional routes, and bonds a certain fleet commonality?

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Greg
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Fri May 16, 2003 10:24 pm

So apparently, even with that large wing, the -200's can be used economically on routes under 2000 miles?
 
hoons90
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Fri May 16, 2003 10:30 pm

QFTJT, I believe all of Qantas' A330-200s are A330-201s, excluding one that is an A330-203(202?). IIRC the A330-201s can only fly no more than 5000kms. The A330-203 VH-EBB flew Toulouse-Melborune nonstop IIRC.
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qantas747
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Fri May 16, 2003 10:45 pm

You ask why they use them, I ask why not?.
First of all the passenger and cargo increase on these busy routes. And also because it is the new flagship of domestic. It is very comfortable and offers high standard, not to mention faster loading/unloading times with dual airbridges.
And yes QF will use the 201's on domestic only.
The new 300's will come with Total Entertainment, and (hopefully) new business class seats. I would think that the new 300's would replace 767's on international routes. and the 767's on international duties would be transferred to domestic, and therfore the retirement of the 762's will happen.
So, in the future I would expect to see the 333's on Japan, HK, SIN and some Trans-tasman flights.

It is all part of this fleet restructuring thing and associated works going on, wherby all 733's will be All economy (slimline seats) and 734's with 20 permanent J class seats. 73H's in a 12/156 config and millenium and slimline seating.

Anyway, back to the topic, overall the 200's are used purely domestic because of their ability to carry more Pax in peaks and also because they are more economical therefore QF can offer more of the cheap seats to compete better with Virgin.
 
tsentsan
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Fri May 16, 2003 10:46 pm

Howdy Hoons,

Correct VH-EBD went n/s TLS-MEL. But VH-EBC a -201 also went nonstop Toulouse to Melbourne. I'm not sure about VH-EBD but I think it stopped in SIN.

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AJ
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Sat May 17, 2003 12:11 am

They are all A330-201s.
Tsentsan, it was VH-EBB that went non-stop first, setting a record. VH-EBD stopped in Singapore to pick up freight. Finger trouble?
 
tsentsan
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Sat May 17, 2003 12:49 am

Ops! Apologies.... *embarassed*...

Yes thanks AJ for that.. I apologies EBB did direct non-stop.
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groobster
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Sat May 17, 2003 12:57 am

Anyone know which was the first commercial A330 flight for Qantas?

I flew on VH-EBA from MEL-SYD on DEC 31st at 12.30pm (it was late), the staff on board were very upbeat about their new shiny Airbus, and the fact that the Australians built the lower doors (or something).

I was surprised to fly on that plane, as they weren't expected to go into commercial service until early 2003.

It had to go as high as 41000ft to avoid the terrible turbulence!
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QFTJT
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Sat May 17, 2003 9:25 am

What other airlines in the world use A330's for only sectors around the 1 hours mark?
 
gigneil
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer

Sat May 17, 2003 9:55 am

Saying that the 737-900 is a more appropriate aircraft compared to the A330-200 is hardly a logical statement. A 180 seat aircraft vs. a 301 seat aircraft does not a comparison make.

The A330-201 is a very weak aircraft, only 64k pounds of thrust, and QF has been very, very pleased with them from all accounts. They're not set up for long range routes.

I don't know why you'd say the A330-300 is better suited for domestic, although it too is well suited. QF plans to deploy the A330-300 on regional international routes but also has switched some A330-200 orders for more A330-300s, and some of those configured for domestic routes.

The fleet doesn't "stand" at 4, there are 13 planes on order.

Anyway, QF wanted a larger plane than the 767. The 767-300ER certainly wasn't designed for domestic operations, but Asian carriers fly them on super-short stage lengths.

The 330s were specifically ordered for the CityFlyer service.

N
 
srbmod
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Sat May 17, 2003 10:16 am

Back when Delta was looking for a replacement for the L-1011, they actually considered the A330-200, before deciding on the 767-400. Delta flies the 767-400 on some short routes, like ATL-MCO/FLL/TPA, which are under 2 hours in length. These type flights are similar to what Qantas using the A330-200 on.
 
tsentsan
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Sat May 17, 2003 12:38 pm

The 767-300ER certainly wasn't designed for domestic operations, but Asian carriers fly them on super-short stage lengths.

Interesting comment. There arent too many Asian carriers that fly the 767, and trying to recall only Brunei, Eva and Air China fly them. I dont really see these 3 airlines doing super short flights with the 767s, assuming your super short flights are anything less than 1 hour.

The 767-300ER was designed for medium-long haul flights, mostly trans-atlantic. However, you get airlines like Air NZ doing SIN-AKL (a 11 hr flight) with them, while Qantas makes the 767-300ER do MEL-SYD on a 1 hr flight. Actually, it shows the versatility of the aircraft to be able to operate almost all kinds of flights  Smile Same goes for the 777.
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Airbus Lover
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Sat May 17, 2003 1:17 pm

Other Asian B767 operators I can think of:-

Gulf Air
Vietnam Airlines
Japan Air Lines
Asiana
China Eastern (new operator)
Hainan Airlines
Air Do Hokkaido (domestic Japan airline)
All Nippon
and many other Chinese airlines

This proves the B767's versatility as mentioned by Tsentsan. I like it!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Sat May 17, 2003 1:24 pm

I agree with QFTJT on this one. SYD-MEL is an extremely short sector for even this aircraft. I could understand it if QF only used this type for long haul domestic- i.e Perth-Melbourne, Perth-Sydney,Perth-Brisbane. Melbourne-Sydney just seems way too short and i can't see why the 767-200/300 can't fly this route instead. Also flying between MEL-Syd the aircraft will rack up a very high cycle with all the takeoffs and landings it will do- i'm not sure the A330 was designed for that kind of flying. BTW what's the seating capacity of an A321?
 
gigneil
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer

Sat May 17, 2003 2:00 pm

The A321 has a one class capacity of 220, but about 185 or so 2 class.

Starmark in Japan flies their domestic sectors with 767-300ERs, as does UA in the US. I'm confident JAL flies 763s on short routes as well as the A300-600 post merger.

N
 
QFTJT
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Sat May 17, 2003 4:56 pm

Gigneil, why is my statement about the 737-900 not logical? Of course they do not make a comparison because they are totally different categories. The 737-900 was designed for short to medium range and A330-200 for long range. I understand these aircraft are set up for domestic ops but that is beside the point. It will be interesting to see how long these aircraft will stay on the domestic runs. I don’t thing it will be long term.

As for the A330 being a weak aircraft, I would not regard 64k of thrust, weak.

The fleet does stand at 4 as the remaining aircraft will all be -300's.

I'm interested to know what other airlines have the same setup with A330-200's in place?
 
thadocta
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Sun May 18, 2003 5:42 am

Something which *some* of you (but by no means ALL of you) seem to be missing is that QF needed an aircraft with a greater seating capacity than a 763. The next alternative in the QF fleet was a 747, not really an option for SYD-MEL or SYD-BNE.

The 332 or 333 was an increase in the number of seats, without a great cost in infrastructure or total journey time costs, and is a signifigant improvement.

Dave
 
sllevin
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer

Sun May 18, 2003 8:23 am

Big wing or not, there's more to making money than having *precisely* the right aircraft on a route.

After all, if I said "what the most effective machine for short haul" we'd all agree that 737NG's are poor, right? Too heavy, designed to go too far. Yet Southwest uses them with great effectiveness.

Steve
 
PER744
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Mon May 19, 2003 6:31 pm

To all those people complaining that the routes are too short, you might want to have a look with what they've been doing with 747's in Japan for many years.
 
vfw614
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RE: Why Does Qantas Use Their A330's For Cityflyer?

Mon May 19, 2003 7:59 pm

Funny to hear that A330-200s should not do "domestics". "Domestic" is the most misleading phrase in this context I could imagine. The domestic market in Australia or the US is certainly different from the domestic market in, say, Germany or France when it comes to distances. Other than SYD-MEL/BNE, most domestic routes in Australia served with jet aircraft are much longer than most European international routes.....