bkkair
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CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Wed May 14, 2003 10:11 pm

Probably never happen but ........

Full article:
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/thestandard/news_detail_frame.cfm?articleid=38833&intcatid=1

Cathay Pacific Airways believes British rival Virgin Atlantic will face an uphill struggle to win rights to fly between Hong Kong and Australia by the end of this year.

Cathay Pacific general manager for international relations Andrew Pyne said yesterday that, unlike previous air services agreements, any new deals had to be open to any airline operated by a European citizen.

Pyne said that, if there were negotiations between Britain and Hong Kong with a view to letting Virgin fly from Hong Kong to Australia, then Cathay Pacific would want rights across the North Atlantic from Britain to the US.

``Cathay Pacific has been seeking the rights from the UK to the US for a long time,'' Pyne said. He said that, while Virgin wanted Hong Kong-Australia rights, ``Virgin has been instrumental in blocking open skies between the UK and the US''.



 
rupertvander82
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Wed May 14, 2003 10:18 pm

I don't see any reason why CX will get rights to fly UK-US routes if Virgin gets HKG-Australia routes. There are so many other airlines that have been fighting for those routes, and even SIA is not granted the rights. This comes even so when BA is allowed flights from SIN-Australia.
 
docpepz
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Wed May 14, 2003 10:19 pm

British Airways flies 14 times a week from Singapore to Sydney/Melbourne. In exchange for that, Singapore Airlines does not get rights from LHR to the US.

So that withstanding, why on earth would the UK let CX fly LHR-USA in exchange for VS flying daily from HKG to SYD?????
 
alpere1
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Wed May 14, 2003 10:29 pm

Likewise, Why on earth would China let VS fly HKG - SYD? or even Australia let VS fly HKG-SYD?
 
hkg82
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Wed May 14, 2003 10:31 pm

It's not a fair process, unfortunately. And yes, SIA has wanted to do SIN-LHR-JFK-LHR-SIN for a very long time, and even though the Singapore Government has allowed BA to make SIN their Asian hub for flights to Australia, the British Government has not given SQ the necessary fifth freedom rights needed to operate LHR-USA flights.

Well, considering a British-based firm owns Cathay Pacific (that firm is Swire Pacific), maybe there could be another angle to this, since this will be benefiting a UK firm? You can’t rule it out.

It's too bad politics & aviation are so intertwined.

Hkg82.
 
B-HOP
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Wed May 14, 2003 10:40 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think BA allow to pick up any pax in Singapore to Aus apart from their own. Sir Branson has done a very good job though, come to HK in person and met officals.
Live life to max!!!
 
hkg82
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Wed May 14, 2003 10:47 pm

China plays no part in HK signing an aviation services agreement with another country, despite the fact that under the “One Country, Two Systems” framework, China assumes full authority over HK in only the foreign (state) & defense matters. Nonetheless, China has given HK full backing in any aviation packs the territory signs or may sign with another country.

The benefits to Chek Lap Kok & the people of HK are obvious. Competition has decreased & prices have gone up on the HK- Australia route as there are only two airlines that offer services between the two countries: Cathay Pacific & Qantas. Ansett used to fly between HKG & SYD with the 744 (not sure about MEL – can anyone confirm?) before they collapsed. CLK will seen an increase in the volume of transit passengers as those in the UK or the rest of Europe who wish to travel on VS to Australia will transit in HKG.

It’s only fair that if VS is allowed to do HKG-SYD-HKG that CX is to be allowed to operate whatever fifth freedom flights they want out of LHR (subject to the same frequency of flights as VS of course. Picky negotiations!) But it’s the UK Government after all, slow & inefficient, and in this case, MOST unfair!

Britair: Yes BA is allowed to pick up passengers in Singapore for their onward flights Australia.

Hkg82.
 
captaink
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Wed May 14, 2003 10:49 pm

I can see Cathay Pacific's point.. It seems pretty fair. WHy should a Birith Carrier get route rights for aisan routes, leaving the aisian carrier to compete with them only in that area and not others? That would give VS an edge. Routes rights exchange would be in order.
There is something special about planes....
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Wed May 14, 2003 10:56 pm

Politics aside, where are the slots for UK-US flights?
In Arsene we trust!!
 
docpepz
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Wed May 14, 2003 11:11 pm

Britair I've flown BA from Singapore to Brisbane before! They gave up Singapore-PER and Singapore-BNE for Singapore-SYD and Singapore-MEL which they operate currently.

If I'm not wrong, BA originally wanted to operate Singapore-SYD and Singapore-MEL IN ADDITION TO Singapore-PER and Singapore-BNE. But the Singapore govt said no to that until SQ could do a daily LHR-JFK flight.

Imagine that..... Singapore asking for 7 flights a week out of Heathrow in return for BA getting 28 slots to Australia ex Singapore. Isn't that a great deal?

PS: Why is it when I type "S.I.N" the server changes it to IN/WSSS blah blah blah blah?
 
hkg82
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Wed May 14, 2003 11:21 pm

Let's hope Swire Pacific pulls a few strings with the British Government.  Big grin

Ultimately I would love to see CX servicing JFK 3 times daily: 1x daily 744 HKG-YVR-JFK-YVR-HKG, HKG-JFK-HKG 1x daily A346 and HKG-LHR-JFK-LHR-HKG 1x daily with the 744! It’s not too outlandish if you think about it.

Hkg82.
 
CPH-R
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Wed May 14, 2003 11:42 pm

The question that also needs to be taken into account is that of the slots at LHR (aren't we already discussing this?). There are currently no more slots available, so CX and/or SQ would have to secure a new pair of slots from someone (their alliance partners?) or sacrifice some of their own.

The puzzle would be interesting though, since the aircraft at one point would have to spend quite a bit of time on the ground (on the other hand, they already do).
 
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airzim
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 12:14 am

The US will never allow it anyway. Keep dreaming
 
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STT757
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 12:18 am

The slots are already there, all these airlines are asking for is rights to fly onto the US, instead of just turning around and flying back to Asia.

There's no need for new slots since they would use their existing slots.

And I agree, there can be no disscussion of this unless there's progress in getting DL and CO into Heathrow.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
senliture
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 12:19 am

one point is, why CX has to follow SQ? I mean why can't CX gains something that SQ doesn't has?

Senliture
 
Britair
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 12:31 am

Hello!! Just to clarify it was B-HOP who asked whether BA had traffic rights between Singapore and Australia, not me!!!  Smile I think I know the in's and out's of the Kangaroo Route and the JSA better than most having worked for BA and Qantas both in Australia and here in the UK.

Cheers  Smile
 
hkg82
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 12:37 am

oops, sorry Britair, and apologies to B-HOP too! I don't know why I got the names mixed-up. Silly me

Hkg82.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 1:02 am

The slots are already there, all these airlines are asking for is rights to fly onto the US, instead of just turning around and flying back to Asia.

No they are not there. LHR is the most congested airport in the world in terms of slot co-ordination. In order for CX to fly UK-US flights it would need at least 7-10 slots a week to start a viable service, but they don't exist.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
VS11
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 1:08 am

And I recall reading somewhere that the Hong Kong government would be inclined to let VS fly to Australia as they need higher pax numbers to pay off for the new airport.

Regards,
VS11
 
danialanwar
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 1:18 am

from experience BA has full right on their SIN - Australia routes, as has QF on their SIN - Europe routes. Put that together, time for SQ to be allowed JFK - LHR - SIN - SYD - LAX. What a great way to fly JFK-LAX but if UA goes under that maybe the only StarAlliance direct flight available then ...
Best Business Class: Royal Brunei. Best Economy: Singapore Airlines. First: please send money first!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 3:10 am

BD will absolutely sh!t on itself if it sees yet another airline get LHR-USA rights... but that's Bermuda2, so little could actually be done about it Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Ikarus
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 3:56 am

OK, so if Air India, Kuwait Airways, Pakistan International Airlines and Air New Zealand can offer UK-US routes, why not allow others, too? Just tell CX they can get it if they use another airport instead of LHR...  Big grin

Either way, let's hope Virgin get the rights they want. It's about time...
 
GARUDAROD
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 5:10 am



Somebody explain to me how a British Carrier flying between China
and Australia warrants a Chinese Carrier to fly from the US to UK????
What does the US carriers get out of this?????
Now if this was a US carrier that wanted to fly HK/AUST, then I could
see the argument.
Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
 
airplanetire
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 5:37 am

I don't believe this is about what the US carriers get from it. This would bring competition to CX if another airline had fifth freedom rights on its services between HKG and SYD. That particular airline is Virgin, which of course is a British airline. I guess Hong Kong figures that if another airline gets to take a slice of the pie on the HKG-Australia market, then they should get a slice of the pie on the UK-US market, a very lucrative one. If I were CX, I'd do the same.
 
aussiestu
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 5:48 am


If CX and VS both gots their rights would BA then be able to codeshare with CX to USA from UK? Or would this be opening another can of worms, they dont seem to be able to codeshare with AA just yet!
 
GARUDAROD
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 6:19 am


Airplanetire,

My point exactly. IF CX gets competition on the HKG/AUST route,
what makes them think they deserve access on the US/UK routes?
There is no justification for their argument based on these terms.
Unless there is some give back to US carriers, ie access for DL/CO/NW
to LHR, having VS fly between HKG/AUST is a matter for the
UK/Chinese authorities to work out....
Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
 
Leezyjet
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 6:23 am

Lets put things in perspective here,

From HKG-SYD there are 2 carriers flying the route - CX and QF.

From LHR-JFK there are 6 carriers flying the route - VS,BA,UA,AA,AI and KU.

Bit of a differance don't you think. I do not see how CX (or SQ for that matter) will benefit from operating on an already saturated route considering that both airlines are in alliances with airlines that already operate the LHR-JFK route numerous times a day.

By allowing VS to fly from HKG-SYD it will also bring more tourism into Hong Kong itself which can't be a bad thing as there will be more passengers going via HKG which may opt for a stopover.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
CPH-R
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 7:18 am

A thing that I've been wondering about: What will the overall flying time be, flying LHR-HKG-SYD compared to flying LHR-SIN-SYD?
 
United Airline
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 7:25 am

Well Air New Zealand is operating between LAX and LHR. Also SQ has a few transatlantic flights as well.
 
CPH-R
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 7:48 am

Yeah, but SQ haven't got access to the lucrative market that LHR is. They fly from Amsterdam and Frankfurt and what else, but no LHR yet.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 8:39 am

SQ has been lobbying the British govt' for years to fly LHR-USA, but with no success, it has got clearance from US authorities though. Can't see CX betting into the act before SQ. UK-US routes are over-saturated as Leezyjet mentioned, i just don't understand the crazy demand for US flights from the UK from third party carriers.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
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STT757
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 8:51 am

There's demand for US-Heathrow flights, it's "slot controlled" so it earns premiums.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 11:48 am

How about all the routes the US carriers already fly out of Hong Kong to non-US destinations carrying freight and passengers? Is that not justification in itself? Cathay does not have a single route carrying people from the US to a destination other than HKG. Not one...yet they have many from HKG.
 
buckfifty
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 11:58 am

Okay...

a) This whole issue revolves around the language of the Bermuda 2 agreement, and principally revolves around Heathrow itself. The limitation is not from the American side, because the Americans would love to see CX get the U.K.-U.S. service. In effect, most other EU airlines which the E.U. itself has taken legal action against the U.K. government on the Bermuda 2 agreement would love it. Because it's not just CX that thinks Bermuda 2 is unfair, but a whole heap of airlines which want open skies between the U.K. and the U.S. And if you add CX to that list, the voice of dissenters will increase.

b) How can you limit THE most lucrative route in the world for premium business travellers to just four airlines? When VS switched from Gatwick to Heathrow, their profits on the route to JFK jumped 44% because of the premium business traffic. So no, it's not the same flying out of any other airport, Heathrow is the jewel of the crown. And it's not oversaturated at all, as the protection of Bermuda 2 allows the airlines to limit frequencies, and increase load factors out of LHR.

c) So then, the British government wants to protect it's two principle airlines, and more so BA, from increased transatlantic competition. If it was open skies, you know every airline and their dog is going to apply for slots at Heathrow. And the slots currently held by the four airlines would then come under attack, because they would not be able to use the 'grandfather' clause to hang onto them. LHR may be oversaturated, but 84% of the transatlantic slots are held by BA and AA, some of which remain unused.
 
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STT757
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 1:41 pm

"How about all the routes the US carriers already fly out of Hong Kong to non-US destinations carrying freight and passengers? Is that not justification in itself? Cathay does not have a single route carrying people from the US to a destination other than HKG. Not one"

Are you sure about that, I could have sworn CX's JFK flight goes through Vancouver.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
9V-SVE
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 3:46 pm

Doesn't CX also fly to Singapore via Bangkok or Jakarta too?
 
qantas747
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 4:32 pm

Just to point out how CX can get the slots at LHR.
You know that thing commonly called the concorde. Without the concorde flying across the atlantic, I would presume that BA would have some spare slots because they would either put a 777 or 744 on the LHR-JFK routes, and that triples capacity on the slots that used to be serviced by Concorde. So my view is, that because CX is in OneWorld, BA could hand over 7-10 weekly slots for them do do UK-US services. And I'm sure BA wouldn't mind that much, mainly because they're alliance airlines benefit from it.
Also these Australasian airlines are the best service-wise, so putting that extra bit of service will benefit both countries.

I tell ya what would be good, QF getting transatlantic rights, that would be heaps good as well, oh well, not neccessary as they codeshare with BA, but ohg well, sometime in the future.

And also having VS on the HK to Oz route would be of benefit tourism wise, but they should only get it if CX gets something in return because hk-oz is a very profitable route for CX so therefore if VS wants a bit of CX's most profitable, then CX should get some of VS's most profitable route. Even deal I must say  Smile

Regards
QANTAS747
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 4:38 pm

STT757,

My apologies. You are right, CX does indeed carry pax between YVR and JFK. That's one, but it would be nice to have more than that one!

9V-SVE,

Cathay does carry passengers around Asian destinations, but so do other carriers, so that is much more of a fair agreement. Other areas are not quite so fair. Governments tend to be very willing to get advantages for their own carriers and not give out reciprical agreements for obvious selfish reasons.
 
Red Panda
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 8:21 pm

Sometimes I do not understand why HK government gives out the fifth freedom rights to US carriers so easily without forcing US gov't to give HK carriers something. Poor SAR gov't in such a sub-position when bargaining with others.

r panda
 
B-HOP
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 9:27 pm

Shame our LEGCO member always said HK aviation market is restricted, CX is well protected and that we should have full 'open sky' like Singapore. What they don't realize is Cathay have invested a lot in HK and deserve something in return and that their size would sink in the international market. If we have open skies and CX went down, we became totally reliant on foregin carriers, that would be even worst for HK.
Live life to max!!!
 
buckfifty
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 11:36 pm

The U.S. and HK already have an open skies agreement. It's just that CX does not want to fly to places like Dubuque, Iowa.
 
rednose
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Thu May 15, 2003 11:59 pm

Perhaps someone can explain to me why VS (or any of the others) cannot do it via JNB. I did it last year, flying LHR - JNB with SAA and then JNB - SYD with QF. The flying time is virtually the same, but the lay over in JNB is 7 hours going towards SYD and 5 hours when flying towards LHR. If these could be shortened, it would really be a great way to go there.
 
SAA201
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Fri May 16, 2003 3:33 am

A bit off topic:

At one stage a few years ago, BA and QF were talking about "wet-leasing" each other's aircraft to increase utilisation. The plan was for QF to use BA aircraft to operate JNB-SYD return, and for BA to use QF aircraft for LAX-LHR (or vice versa - can't quite remeber) return. This to try elimate the fact that aircraft spend the entire day on the ground at JNB or LAX/LHR after arriving early morning and only departing that evening.
 
travelin man
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Fri May 16, 2003 8:03 am

Sometimes I do not understand why HK government gives out the fifth freedom rights to US carriers so easily without forcing US gov't to give HK carriers something.

I'm pretty sure Cathay could fly from the US to wherever it wanted (excepting LHR) IF it wanted to. As Buckfifty pointed out, it's not our fault that CX doesn't want to fly to other countries from the US (except for the JFK-YVR service).

(note -- even with open skies, Cathay and other foreign carriers cannot carry paying passengers between US cities (cabotage) unless their passengers originated in their country of origin, a la QF's SYD-LAX-JFK service.)
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust

Fri May 16, 2003 11:54 am

The U.S. and HK already have an open skies agreement

Where do people keep coming up with this idea from?

There is not an Open Skies agreement between the USA and Hong Kong... only a bilateral with was slightly liberalized last year.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!