BD1959
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QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Thu May 15, 2003 6:58 am

QF 638 from MEL to BNE last night left MEL an hour late. Was on finals into BNE when an aborted landing was executed. The flight diverted to Tamworth where the flight stayed for several hours before returning to BNE.

(QF website is currently listing 638 as Est 04:50 arrival at BNE with a schduled 23:10 last night).

BNE airport are quoted as saying that the usual active runway was closed last night for surface repairs and has been each evening for the past six months. The alternative rwy was apparently too short for a landing by the aircraft "in the conditions".

My question: how came a flight progress so far when there is clearly no chance of it being landed at it's destination?

BD1959
 
dinker225
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Thu May 15, 2003 7:04 am

Wouldn't or shouldn't the pilot have known that the airport was closed at a certain time of day for the last 6 months? With a few calculations it would turn up that a flight from Melbourne to Brisbane is usually X number of hours. They must know that they must leave before a certain time so that they could arrive before the closure?

Dinker
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BD1959
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Thu May 15, 2003 7:08 am

Link to a rather sensational account (aren't they all?)

http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6437983%255E2,00.html

Dinker: What about ATC - aren't they aware of issues "up the line"?

BD1959
 
tsentsan
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Thu May 15, 2003 12:47 pm

Hmmm dont know how accurate the media reports it to be (as usual)..

but quoting from the YSSY board (and I think from a fellow a.net member)... the flight ops by VH-TJB went around runway 14/32 not due to runway works but due to weather being below minimums. Additionally, the runway under repair was 01/19.

Wonder how some people can make a go-around to be 'scary' when it is so bloody exciting!!!!! Big grin

[Edited 2003-05-15 05:51:34]
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POSITIVE RATE
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Thu May 15, 2003 1:13 pm

That story is pretty pathetic. Big deal, what was the drama in going around? Pax get scared of the most stupidist things it's unbelievable. I don't think an incident like this even warrants a mention on a news report, must have been a slow news day or something. Regarding RWY 32/14- it's only 1700m long so i suppose if there was any kind of Xwind or something the crew wouldn't want to land on it.
 
BD1959
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Thu May 15, 2003 2:59 pm

Tsentan and Positive_rate:

Regardless of how accurate the press report (of whether it was an abortive landing on a closed runway or one under minimum):

1) Brisbane Airport was unable to handle a flight which was destined to land there - to re-ask my original questions: whose responsiblity was it to recognise this and why was it not done until the flight was on finals?

2) I'm sure that the passengers were well impressed to be sat at Tamworth overnight on a plane

BTW 32/14 was supposedly under minimums not because of x-wind but because it was wet.

Not worthy of a news item? I beg to differ (better than av $4.50 in the budget!!).

BD1959
 
Mr.BA
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Thu May 15, 2003 4:06 pm

14/32 was under minimums I believe not due to it's runway conditions or winds at that time. I believe visibility was very bad. Weather can change quickly, upon arrival the weather went below minimums for 14/32 and the B737 diverted. It's just a weather diversion.
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qantas747
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Thu May 15, 2003 4:38 pm

I must say, why would it divert to Tamworth instead of Maroochydore or Coolangatta? for me that would be the better options.
As tamworth is an engineering base for the dash 8s, I wonder if it was diverted to Tamworth not just because of weather concerns. I think there may have been a mechanical fault involved that QF want to cover up.
Unless Tamworth was the only place open that time of night.

Just a thought.

QANTAS747
 
AJ
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Thu May 15, 2003 4:51 pm

Simply not true QANTAS747. Anyone familiar with the weather patterns currently affecting the eastern seaboard of Australia would know that most coastal ports had similar conditions to Brisbane, with Sydney and Coolangatta also closed due to the curfew. Accurate weather reports are very difficult to get at 11pm, with most aerodrome met reporters off the job.
As the flight had flown past Tamworth and knew the aerodrome was clear it seems a logical port of diversion. It would not suprise me if the flight was dispatched with Tamworth as the alternate.
I'm sure the media would buy your story though!
 
tsentsan
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Thu May 15, 2003 5:40 pm

BD1959 - of course its not newsworthy. Do you see the news people reporting diversions to Adelaide when Melbourne was all fogged up or when Perth was fogged up a few days ago? You dont right, so what makes this newsworthy?

Rwy32/14 was under minimums cos its WET? Since when you was this a condition for landing? It was the visibility thats a problem. Rwy32/14 has no ILS so you have to go in with a much higher minimums then if you have ILS, and obviously as part of the landing checklist, if the crew cant see the runway by xxx metres, they declared a missed approach, went around and diverted.

As for Tamworth, AJ has provided a very logical explanation. Of cos unless you're trying to find fault with QF (as most people do).
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BD1959
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Fri May 16, 2003 7:57 am

Tsentsan,

Perfect timing: Southern Cross Network News were this morning reporting the diversion of 3 International flights from Melbourne due to fog: a QF to SYD; MAS and SQ to ADL.

Agreed, the press do sensationalise anything to do with the aviation industry (as I pointed out in my 2nd post). In this instance - did the weather deteriorate so quickly that what was safe for the plane to go onto finals suddenly went under minimums on approach? If so - hats off to the pilot. If not, and the runway had been under minimum for some time why was the flight allowed to progress so far? My questions (above) have not been aimed only at QF but also the ATC (please read!)

I have never questioned QF's safety before (yes, I am very quick to criticise their inflight service) but I suddenly had flashbacks to the incident (in KL) with the 747 aquaplaning.

BD1959




 
Mr.BA
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Fri May 16, 2003 8:11 am

I am not too sure about this but I am going to post it anyway, pilots or someone who has more knowledge on this correct me.

As stated, 14/32 has no ILS and I believe the runway must be seen at a certain point of time during final approach and this altitude is set by the FAA? It works something like the CAT I/II/III approach. On the other hand the pilot might not have full details to the weather condtion, or he probably wanted to make an attempt, they might just make it down anyway.

Everywhere you go in bad weather I am sure you see airports that are still operating under safe limits have planes flying all over the airfield attempting to land, some make it, some simply diverted.
Boeing747 万岁!
 
BD1959
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Fri May 16, 2003 8:50 am

Thanks Mr.BA,

Talking of procedures for weather diversions - which I'm now starting to understand more of! - why in this day and age would some International flights into MEL be diverted due to fog? This morining both QF and BA flights made it in early, MAS, SIA and (presumably) QF LAX diverted. Is this purely due to deteriorating minimums once on the ground since I'd have thought ILS would negate the effect during landing itself.

BD1959
 
AJ
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Fri May 16, 2003 10:45 am

I have never questioned QF's safety before (yes, I am very quick to criticise their inflight service) but I suddenly had flashbacks to the incident (in KL) with the 747 aquaplaning.

Flawed flashback? Are you referring to the overrun at Bangkok?

As stated, 14/32 has no ILS and I believe the runway must be seen at a certain point of time during final approach and this altitude is set by the FAA? It works something like the CAT I/II/III approach. On the other hand the pilot might not have full details to the weather condition, or he probably wanted to make an attempt, they might just make it down anyway.

The approach to runway 14/32 is a VOR/DME non-precision approach, nothing like a Cat I, II or III ILS (precision) approach, with much higher ceiling and visibility requirements. The FAA has absolutely nothing to do with it,the Civil Aviation Safety Authority governs Australian aviation. Airservices Australia controls the airways.

Talking of procedures for weather diversions - which I'm now starting to understand more of! - why in this day and age would some International flights into MEL be diverted due to fog?

No Australian ILS facilities are rated to Cat II or III due to the higher costs versus the very few days per year they would be required. It is a risk that a few flights per year will have to divert as the Cat I 200' minima is not sufficient.
Hope that clears a few things up!

 
BD1959
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Fri May 16, 2003 10:55 am

Yes AJ - BKK (silly me! Embarrassment )

BD1959


 
OPNLguy
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Fri May 16, 2003 11:07 am

>>>If not, and the runway had been under minimum for some time why was the flight allowed to progress so far?

Because the visibility -flucuates-. I've had numerous flights where the viz took a dump while they're enroute, and common sense says that you continue and see what the conditions are at the time of your intended landing. The visibility (as measured by RVR when it gets below 1 mile here in the US) often moves above/below FAA minimums. You need RVR 1800, it's 2000, oops, there's 1600, 1200, back to 2000, back to 1200... If it's below when you get there in the terminal area, you hold. If it comes up, you commence the approach and either land, or go missed approach. If it stays below, I get to divert them...
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Fri May 16, 2003 11:54 am

Bad day for QF- how long will it take to repair the landing gear of Wednesday night's QF108 LAX-SYD?
 
AJ
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Fri May 16, 2003 12:45 pm

What happened to QF108?
 
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Fri May 16, 2003 3:03 pm

Problem with rear landing gear last night just before pushback- pax put in hotels. They did an aircraft switch with an inbound arriving aircraft and the delayed flight left around noon Thursday. I guess the 744 in question might be in LAX for a while.
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Fri May 16, 2003 4:41 pm

Ok fair enough maybe it should rate a mention in the news then, but interviewing the pax on board the a/c is just plain wrong. What's the point of interviewing pax when they have no idea what they are talking about anyway? I think airline pax need a bit of "training" before they fly so they know what a Go-around is, so they know what it means if they have to divert, so they know what happens if they have an engine failure, so they know that turbulence is not dangerous etc. The everyday pax has no idea about any of these things and so when some little incident occurs they get a little carried away. Maybe the airlines should introduce a little brochure that fits into the seat pocket that explains the basic theory of flight and procedures.
 
TSV
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Fri May 16, 2003 8:33 pm

Has anyone here actually been in a 737 (or anything larger) that landed on runway 14/32?

I have on a nice clear day and can tell you it was a hell of ride!
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qantas747
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RE: QF Flight Attempts Landing On Closed Rwy

Fri May 16, 2003 10:56 pm

Ok sorry bout that, I'm from Canberra so don't really know much about the weather up there. Oh well, twas just a thought, and hey, you learn something everyday, and this will help me in my (future) studies in becoming a pilot.
Thanks!

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