jcxp15
Posts: 989
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 12:05 pm

CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 8:51 am

I can't believe what some people must have thought when they saw this plane. A CO 777 carrying military back from Iraq was authorized to overfly NYC, as well as lower Manhattan and do several loops. Anyway, 3000 feet in a 777 looks REALLY low over Manhattan... Here's a link to the story...

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_051403_lowplane.html#
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13173
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 8:54 am

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Ilyushin96M
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 1999 3:15 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 8:57 am

What complete stupidity on the part of the FAA. As if New York isn't jittery enough after 9/11...
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13173
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 9:04 am


"This was a Continental jet chartered by the military to ferry back soldiers from the Middle East. Witnesses say the plane made a couple of loops around Lower Manhattan before flying over midtown headed to Newark airport. "


"The crew was approved to give the troops on board a bird's eye view of Manhattan. But for those on the ground, it was a little too close for comfort."



"The NYPD said it was alerted ahead of time that a military aircraft would be over Manhattan and it had government clearance."

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
redngold
Posts: 6673
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 9:48 am

I just did the expressway visual four days ago on the way into LGA... but in a 737-800... at 6000 ft. They should have made a radio announcement or something. And since it made several loops... I'm sure some people were browning their pants.

redngold
Up, up and away!
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13389
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 9:50 am

Somewhere today, someone important said:

"Oops. My bad."  Big grin
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6875
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 9:53 am

I saw a DL 738 doing the Expressway visual into LGA last month and it was quite low, quite possibly at 3000'. I thought that they were giving that plane quite a low altitude for such an approach.

Jeff
 
777gk
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:04 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 10:02 am

Excellent! A good friend of mine was at the controls of this one, and, if anything, I can guarantee to you that he was more than happy to make some passes over Lower Manhattan for the boys.

Back in the early 1990s, I was working as a FO on a 747-100 (PF) on a CRAF charter home after the Gulf War, and we were permitted to make a low-level pass over the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island. I dropped her down to 3000, pushed it up, did a little waggle as we buzzed the Statue, then dipped the starboard tip, came back around over Ellis Island, then shot back out over the Atlantic to begin a northbound approach to EWR 4L. Certainly one of the most exhilarating experiences in my entire flying career. Still, maneuvers like this were not only permitted, but at this time, they were encouraged!

Good to see some friends of mine having a little fun! I'll certainly give him a call tonight...
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 10:03 pm

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 10:35 am

"One caller reported to authorities at 8:32 a.m. that a plane had crashed into the East River off Broad streets"

What a dipstick!!
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
jcxp15
Posts: 989
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 12:05 pm

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 10:39 am

First off, the news got it wrong. The Expressway visual is over Brooklyn, Queens, and then over the LIE to Shea Stadium then to LGA.... The route they flew is pretty much the approach to the LDA or ILS to RWY22, or could have been the River Visual to RWY13.

Redngold:

If you were on the "Expressway Visual" you were probably between 2,000 and 4,000 feet, at least parallel to Manhattan, and to the right of Manhattan. If not, then you were probably over the Hudson, and made that 180 degree turn and then came in over the water to RWY22.. Most a/c there are as you said like 5,000 to 6,000'.
 
I LOVE EWR
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 6:07 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 11:43 am

777gk, I would be very interested to here what your friend had to say about this. I am glad that he requested and was given the permission to give our troops a scenic tour. What routes have you been working lately?
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 12:20 pm

I'm sure some people were browning their pants.

Fer sure. New Yorkers are not noted for their courage. A joke of mine is that if I walked in front of the New York Stock Exchange at lunch with a dish towel over my head, the Dow would drop 500 points  Smokin cool
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
ndege
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:23 pm

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 1:29 pm

I could make some comments on ultra-sensitivity and people needing to get on with their lives, but I'm sure it would get me flamed. Oops, I just made the comments.

I really think the people of the world, especially of New York, are blowing this out of proportion. Though I've never personally witnessed an airplane crash either deliberately or accidentally, I can say that if I had in fact witnessed such a thing I wouldn't be waiting for every plane I see every day to "fall out of the sky" and kill people. The events of 11 September 2001 were definitely tragic and sad, and I'm not trying to downplay that by any means. I'm just saying, ffs, it was a plane flying on a government cleared route and it, like thousands of other flights a day, did not crash. Thousands of flights take off and land successfully every day, as I'm sure we're all aware. There aren't a hell of a lot of crashes, and even fewer hijackings. People just choose to be paranoid, but I really have no idea why.

BL
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13173
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 1:31 pm

Please don't start PROSA, not like Subtalk.

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
flyingbronco05
Posts: 3484
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 11:43 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 1:45 pm

Anybody think the plane shown here for the article looks like a FedEx plane?

Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
Red Panda
Posts: 1433
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 12:58 pm

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 2:35 pm

why do they use FedEx A310?!

Poor Media...

r panda
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 2:43 pm

I just hope nobody gets in trouble for this. I know the pilots weren't breaking any rules, but hopefully the ATC won't have to answer for this. I certainly see no problem with giving military heros a much deserved tour of the Statue of Liberty on their return flight to the states.

While these scenic tours certainly pose no threat, the fear of New Yorkers isn't completely unjustified. I mean, if you worked in the WTC and then suddenly see an unusually low flying airliner making out of the ordinary circles in the vicinity of Manhattan (around the exact same time of day as the 9/11 attacks), you'd probably feel a little uneasy too; it's just human phychology. That said, perhaps the prudent thing to do is to notify the public when one of these specific events are planned, in order to prevent mass hysteria and mishaps on the surface (i.e. car accidents, etc.) These people were scared because they weren't expecting it; and in a high density area of millions of people, this could cause some problems for people still recovering from 9/11.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
flyboy36y
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 1:45 pm

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 3:50 pm

I can say that if I had in fact witnessed such a thing I wouldn't be waiting for every plane I see every day to "fall out of the sky" and kill people.

No you can't.

How can you say you know what you would do??? I've seen plenty of planes cras (or their immediate aftermath). I saw both planes on 9/11. I live near AA 587. I saw a Cessna crash killing 3. I saw a cessna crash cripling 3. My friend crashed his cessna once. WI walked through the debris of a learjet crash. I saw a barron crash. I was in a aircraft emergency that damaged the aircraft.

I, at times, look up and wonder if a plane will crash. Not cuz of terrorists, but because I know they can.

That sad, idiots should move on. This is retatded...
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 7:23 pm

Witnesses say the plane made a couple of loops around Lower Manhattan before flying over midtown headed to Newark airport.

A couple of loops in a 777?!? I would have loved to see that stunt...  Yeah sure

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Red Panda
Posts: 1433
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 12:58 pm

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 8:06 pm

I think they mean circles, not loops. You may try that out in flightSim though.

r panda
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 8:22 pm

This just seems like a load of hype about nothing at all. I wonder how long before Delta, UAL, American etc all start releasing statements about how it was in really bad taste for Continental to do this...

Jeremy
 
redngold
Posts: 6673
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 10:46 pm

Well, I was on a DL 737-800, we came up the Hudson River, turned right at about Riverdale/Bronx North, and crossed over Van Cortlandt Park to the southern tip of New Rochelle; came in along the Sound shore over City Island and landed on Rwy 22.

So that isn't really the Expressway Visual then... And yes, we must have been at about 6,000 ft. while coming up the west side of Manhattan... I was really shocked by the hole left at the WTC site. I used to feel like I could reach out and touch the towers. It was my first time flying by since 9-11.


redngold
Up, up and away!
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 10:51 pm

Just playing Devils Advocate here, but what would there be to be nervous about? Now that the Twin Towers are felled (and evidently will never be rebuilt), there really isn't anything left high enough in NYC for a plane the size of a 777 to hit-save for the Empire State Building-which is built like a brick shithouse and would not suffer anywhere near the amount of damage the WTC did.
 
petazulu
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:32 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 11:15 pm

Matt D;

Off the top of my head:
Wall Street (not a tall building- but damage could be extensive)
Citcorp Building, Met Life (former PanAm), Crysler Bulding, Statue of Liberty,
Madison Square Garden, Any building near Times Square, Trump Tower, Nuclear Power Plant (30 miles up river from New York), GW bridge, Verrazano Narrows Bridge, Oil refineries, etc.

There are plenty of large targets with the potential to do a lot of damage.
 
N777UA
Posts: 566
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:06 pm

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 11:19 pm

Remember the Empire State Building has already been hit by an airplane in 1945...a B29 I believe it was. I know it wasn't a 777, but the ESB is structurally far stronger than the WTC was, and probably could withstand a jetliner strike.
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 11:23 pm

Please don't start PROSA, not like Subtalk.

Hey, at least I didn't use my favorite Subtalk term, "paranoid bedwetting cowards"  Smokin cool
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
Braniff727
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:25 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 11:25 pm

I think the obvious solution to this is to not allow planes near New York period.

If you want to visit, you should take a train.

Grow up.
Climbing
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 11:41 pm

I think the obvious solution to this is to not allow planes near New York period.
If you want to visit, you should take a train.
Grow up.


While you surely meant that as a form of sarcasm, many New Yorkers probably would like the idea. They've stopped flying themselves, the tourists are gone, so they no longer see the need for service flights at the area airports. It won't actually happen, of course.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
petazulu
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:32 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 11:42 pm

Braniff Guy,
How would you propose to do that? Shut down NYC's airports? That is what you would need to do. Also, hundreds of flights overfly New York every day on their way to Europe, Boston, New England, etc.

Maybe we should just ban flying in the Northeast? Care to go into further detail on your obvious solution?
 
Braniff727
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:25 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 11:54 pm

Further detail of my post:

sarcasm

Sar"casm, n. [F. sarcasme, L. sarcasmus, Gr. sarkasmo`s, from sarka`zein to tear flesh like dogs, to bite the lips in rage, to speak bitterly, to sneer, fr. sa`rx, sa`rkos, flesh.] A keen, reproachful expression; a satirical remark uttered with some degree of scorn or contempt; a taunt; a gibe; a cutting jest.

In other words, I think it's rediculous to expect that the FAA / ATC notify New York everytime a non-standard approach. My opinion, which counts for nothing.

[Edited 2003-05-15 16:58:59]
Climbing
 
vermeer
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri May 12, 2000 6:21 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Thu May 15, 2003 11:56 pm

NDEGE,

I am not flaming you here but I Do live in Manhattan and I have seen one of the twoplanes crashing and, although I am an airline enthusiast, I DO turn my head up to the sky when I see an airplane coming low over the city.
I may be over sensitive, but it never occourred to me before 9/11, only after.

Everything seems incredibly LOW.
Was that a good idea for Continental? frankly, NO
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Fri May 16, 2003 12:08 am

Remember the Empire State Building has already been hit by an airplane in 1945...a B29 I believe it was. I know it wasn't a 777, but the ESB is structurally far stronger than the WTC was, and probably could withstand a jetliner strike.

It was a B-25. Smile/happy/getting dizzy A lot smaller than a B-29 or any commerical jetliner.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
manzoori
Posts: 1459
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 7:08 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Fri May 16, 2003 12:23 am

Hmmm, Interesting thread.

As it happens I was in Manhattan just last week. We'd arrive on a Qantas 747-400 from LA and our route into JFK was rather interesting to say the least!

We came in to the north of Manhattan and the Queens/Brooklyn area of Long Island (Flying eastward), crossing the coast line at about 15000 ft (According to the computer display in the seat in front of me).

As we headed out over the Atlantic the aircraft made a descending right hand turn back towards Long Island. I had a window seat and even as we levelled out I could see JFK off at our 2 o'clock position. The approach into Kennedy was far from straight forward however, as we seemed to be making a long and gentle right hand turn onto the runway... in fact the 744 was still banked over to the right as we crossed the airport perimeter fence!

Not sure which runway we landed on (31L? - Right next to the British Airways stands) but it was quite exciting I can tell you! I had a good long think about why the approach had been quite so 'Banzai' and eventually decided it must be some sort of new FAA requlations prohibiting Manhattan overflights post 9/11.

So, imagine my surprise the next day as we're walking south down Broadway when I hear an airliner and look up to see a 757 or an A320 flying quite low and in a southerly direction. Directly over my head! My immediate reaction was stunned disbelief with the video footage images of the 9/11 first aircraft flying down Manhattan towards the towers playing in my mind!

Very surprised the FAA are allowing ANY overflights of Manhattan to be honest!

Rez
Flightlineimages DOT Com Photographer & Web Editor. RR Turbines Specialist
 
bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:43 pm

Stupid

Fri May 16, 2003 12:38 am

But anyway, I dont understand the hysteria. Planes on River Visual 13 Approach over the Hudson actually fly at, I would say, between 1,500 and 1,800 feet, a lot lower than the 3,000 that they mentioned, which I think is pretty damn high.

I remember going to the Empire State Building Observatory ont he 86th floor and seeing the River Visual planes for LGA passingover the Hudson only a few hundred feet higher than the level I was already at.

Granted if I saw that too, I'd be a little weirded out. That is not a common thing to see, especially for people who know about planes.

Fer sure. New Yorkers are not noted for their courage. A joke of mine is that if I walked in front of the New York Stock Exchange at lunch with a dish towel over my head, the Dow would drop 500 points

Prosa, you'll see my courage when I punch you in the face. That's just a rude thing to say. Have a building fall on you and we'll see how you piss your pants.
Phil Derner Jr.
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Fri May 16, 2003 2:27 am

New Yorkers are not noted for their courage. A joke of mine is that if I walked in front of the New York Stock Exchange at lunch with a dish towel over my head, the Dow would drop 500 points
Prosa, you'll see my courage when I punch you in the face. That's just a rude thing to say. Have a building fall on you and we'll see how you piss your pants.

I cannot understand how you and other people fail to see the paranoia that's permeating New York. Consider this random assortment of examples:

- the city on permanent Orange terror alert, even when the rest of the nation is at a lower level.
- machine gun-toting "Operation Atlas" cops patrolling the city in armored vehicles.
- metal detectors at the Empire State Building.
- National Guardsmen patrolling Penn Station.
- "tank traps" in the driveway in front of City Hall.
- the New York Stock Exchange and the interior of the Statue of Liberty permanently closed to visitors.
- "If you see something, report it" posters in subway and train cars.
- police checkpoints at bridge and tunnel crossings.
- transit workers under orders to call the police to investigate anyone seen taking pictures of trains or stations, even though such photography is completely legal.
- anecdotal but frequent reports of city residents quitting their jobs to move to "safer" rural locations.
- trucks banned from the lower level of the George Washington Bridge (bombs can do more damage there, you see).
- barricaded streets around Police Headquaters and the 911 center in Brooklyn.
- more and more office buildings installing lobby turnstiles to limit access (even my building, a very low-profile place to which even the dimmest terrorist wouldn't give a second thought).
- constant articles in the Times about a "jittery" city.

I could go on and on. The fact remains that New Yorkers are far more worried about terrorism than people almost anywhere else in the nation. Oddly enough, these fears seem to be getting worse as time goes on, even though there have been precisely ZERO further terrorist incidents in the United States since 9/11.
So yes, I'm disgusted about all this fear.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Fri May 16, 2003 2:55 am

I just heard about it one more time on the radio. Guess what, the guy talked about a jumbo jet. SIGH!
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
dan2002
Posts: 2024
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 7:11 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Fri May 16, 2003 5:21 am

"New Yorkers are not noted for their courage. A joke of mine is that if I walked in front of the New York Stock Exchange at lunch with a dish towel over my head, the Dow would drop 500 points".


Well Prosia,
Unless you had absolutely no remembrance of September 11,2001 Hundreds
of BRAVE New Yorkers RAN to the scene of the WTC to BRAVELY help the people despite what was going on around them. Next time use your damn brain.
A guy asks 'What's Punk?'. I kick over a trash can and its punk. He knocks over a trash can and its trendy.
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Fri May 16, 2003 5:49 am

New Yorkers are not noted for their courage. A joke of mine is that if I walked in front of the New York Stock Exchange at lunch with a dish towel over my head, the Dow would drop 500 points

Well Prosia,
Unless you had absolutely no remembrance of September 11,2001 Hundreds
of BRAVE New Yorkers RAN to the scene of the WTC to BRAVELY help the people despite what was going on around them. Next time use your damn brain.


I'm not denying that there was courage shown on 9/11. Although, to be sure, the rescuers who rushed to the World Trade Center had no inkling as to just how dangerous the situation would be, given that no one on the face of the Earth ever thought the towers would fall. Moreover, there were relatively few actual rescues, as almost all of the people in the WTC either left on their own accord or remained trapped until they died.
In any event, what happened on 9/11 is completely beside the point. I am very dismayed at the complete lack of courage shown by New Yorkers since that date. See my posting a couple of messages up to see examples of what I mean (permanent Orange terror alert, tank traps at City Hall, metal detectors at the Empire State Building, and so on). In short, while many New Yorkers may have acted courageously on 9/11, they certainly haven't ever since.

"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
petazulu
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:32 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Fri May 16, 2003 5:55 am

Prosa,
In case it wasn't obvious to you why New York is a bigger and juicier target than almost anywhere else outside the White House:

Capital of World Finance and Economic Activity.
Largest Concentration of people per mile in th USA
Media Capital of the world.
Largest group of Arab Muslims and Immigrants in the US. (the easiest place for peopel to blend into the environment)

When aliens attacked in Independence day- they didn't attack suburbs or the midwest- they attack New York. Why? Because that had the biggest pschological impact on the largest ammount of moviegoers.

Same rule applies for Terrorists.

You seem to be implying that increased vigilance and security measures = general paranoia. They are not the same. It would be reckless not to take extra precautions. Whats wrong with a guardmen in Penn Station or a Truck Trap outside City Hall? I think that is sensible. Now in French Lick, Indiana- those measures might be paranoid- but in NYC they make perfect sense.
 
petazulu
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:32 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Fri May 16, 2003 5:59 am

Prosa,
Given that you equate security measures with being chickensh*t, what you propose to do?

I'd like to hear your solution in light of the recent bombings in Saudi Arabia and the continued proof that there are people who are suicidal in their desire to kill Americans.
 
747-451
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 5:50 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Fri May 16, 2003 6:32 am

Ndege,

"I could make some comments on ultra-sensitivity and people needing to get on with their lives, but I'm sure it would get me flamed"


Before you make any flip and assinie statements about being too sensitive or getting on with one's life, maybe you should walk in some of the victims families, Firefighters or witnesses shoes. I would have lioved to seen the exprtession on YOUR face if you were sitting on your terrace, having a bagle and seeing a 767 crash into a building. You would change, boy would you be changed for ever especially after venturing out into the street, covered with soot and seeing what was seen. Sensitive, you bet I am. I lost too many. No, I haven't lost the prespective of how many flights there are, even when they fly low in bad weather. A new line has been crossed, the possibility of a plane doing it or doing it again. I wonder how you would feel if you lost a loved one, like I did, thru criminality and violence and some one said to you, get on with your life. Really! :  Pissed

PS-I hope heads roll; not the stupid pilot, but the idiots who permitted it and were so bereft os sensitivity.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Fri May 16, 2003 6:37 am

Sensitivity? Why should someone lose their job over something so subjective? There are people who think AA and UAL should be out of business for the "security breaches" that they "let" happen. There are people who will refuse to fly again.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Lt-AWACS
Posts: 2120
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2002 2:40 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Fri May 16, 2003 6:46 am

We looped over NYC ground zero going over last year, these are fairly common events, though we were not that low.


Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Lt-AWACS, Yankee Air Pirate
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Fri May 16, 2003 7:08 am

It's not paranoia but rather a result from a personal experience New Yorkers show. Normally, you learn from history and experiences and act according to them.
People like Prosa could cite Heidegger's "For centuries, humankind used to overact and underthink" but I for one share the opinion, that the idea of a plane flying in low circles over NYC needs a second thought.
I support the right to arm bears
 
bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:43 pm

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Sat May 17, 2003 2:57 am

Prosa, how do you think OTHER cities would have reacted?

Do you think that other cities would not put metal detectors in their biggest of attractions (even though it's tough to compare the ESB to ANYTHING else in the country)?

Would you think that NYC firefighters would not have gone in if they knew the buildings were going to fall...and the FDs from other cities WOULD have?

Remember that NYC is the capital of the world. We are the biggest target for terrorism in the US, as proven on 9/11.

If you ever decide to come here, I'd be glad to be the first to greet you at the airport or at the GW bridge with a punch in your nose. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take that as a threat.

With love,

-Phil (reppin Queens, woot woot! :-p )
Phil Derner Jr.
 
petazulu
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:32 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Sat May 17, 2003 3:28 am

Go big phil!

I think he was just trying to rile us NYC guys up. When I asked him to explain himself in greater detail regarding security measures and cowardice, there was no response.

The thread now is more suited for the non-avaiation forum now though.
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Sat May 17, 2003 4:18 am

Prosa, how do you think OTHER cities would have reacted?

I really don't know. Hopefully, not as drastically. Maybe they'd be better able to realize that knee-jerk security measures wouldn't be effective, and would be less likely to blow the threat way out of proportion. But I don't really know.

Do you think that other cities would not put metal detectors in their biggest of attractions (even though it's tough to compare the ESB to ANYTHING else in the country)?

And just how are metal detectors going to stop determined terrorists from blowing up the Empire State Building, even if there were such a danger (which I'm sure there isn't)? It's not as if they could carry sufficient explosives in backpacks, let alone their pockets. And if the concern is that a terrorist could bring in firearms and start shooting people on the observation deck or elsewhere, well, the terrorist could simply open fire right at the metal detector line, same results.

Would you think that NYC firefighters would not have gone in if they knew the buildings were going to fall...and the FDs from other cities WOULD have?

No firefighters anywhere would have gone into the towers if they knew they were going to fall. Remember that the FDNY ordered its people to evacuate the North Tower as soon as the South Tower fell, even though for all they knew there might still have been trapped people with hope of rescue. Not all got the word in time, unfortunately. While firefighters and other rescuers are expected to take risks when performing their duties, they are not expected to go on suicide missions.

Remember that NYC is the capital of the world. We are the biggest target for terrorism in the US, as proven on 9/11.

Sounds like something Doomberg or Paturkey would say. Actually, if I were in charge of a major terrorist group - and no, I do not believe that there actually is a serious threat any more - I wouldn't hit a business center like New York. I'd go after a major recreational/leisure destination such as Disney World, the Mall of America, a stadium during a major sports event, etc. An attack of that nature would create more of a nationwide panic.

If you ever decide to come here, I'd be glad to be the first to greet you at the airport or at the GW bridge with a punch in your nose. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take that as a threat.

Sorry, but I'm already here, I've worked in the city for nearly a decade (and was less than 1/3 mile away when the South Tower fell).

"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Sat May 17, 2003 4:27 am

I think he was just trying to rile us NYC guys up. When I asked him to explain himself in greater detail regarding security measures and cowardice, there was no response.

I'll respond. Reducing our freedom through harsh security measures means that the terrorists win. Remember, a "terrorist" wants to spread "terror." Even if there were a credible security threat to the United States, which I'm convinced there isn't, these showy security measures won't ensure safety, as the terrorists will simply try other things. After the 1993 bombing, the World Trade Center became one of the most security-conscious buildings in New York or anywhere else, with entry turnstiles, vehicle barriers, searches of delivery trucks, etc. So it was almost impossible to smuggle bombs into the complex. The terrorists just chose something else.
Making everyone's lives miserable through useless security measures, like New York has done, is the easy way out - the coward's way out, to put it differently. Hunting down and destroying the terrorists, that's the correc thing to do, but you have to wonder just how enthuisastic Washington still is in that regard.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Sat May 17, 2003 4:42 am

There are people who think AA and UAL should be out of business for the "security breaches" that they "let" happen.

Witness the lawsuits filed against both airlines. Pretty absurd, given that AA and UA (1) did not set air security standards, and (2) did not run the screening at BOS.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
petazulu
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:32 am

RE: CO 777 Overflies NYC... 9-11 Scares..

Sat May 17, 2003 5:06 am

Some good points there PROSA. But it is full of holes!

You seem to acknowledge that there are terrorists out there that we should hunt down, yet you also feel we should make it as easy as possible to launch a terrorist operation.

Regarding the WTC you said "So it was almost impossible to smuggle bombs into the complex." Isn't that a good thing? Look at the great lengths (hijacking 4 airliners) those guys had to go to (training, cash, perparation, etc) just to get around pretty basic un-intrusive security.

You seem to argue that we should have made it easier for them to pull up in an 18 weeler and detonate a massive bomb by reducing security.

Along the same lines, maybe there should be no effort to screen trucks going into the Holland Tunnel. Why erect a metal detector outside the white house or an airport? Just let anyone walk in and start shooting. Then all the 'brave' people can intervene? Sounds a little short sighted.

I think the whole point of security measures is not to create an impenetrable wall, but rather to close gaping vulnerabilities so that terrorists must work harder to find the cracks.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 77west, AApilot2b, aaway, BeachBoy, BobMUC, BreninTW, d8s, deltal1011man, Google Adsense [Bot], iahcsr, LGAviation, LXM83, MrBren, nabla, SCQ83, SGAviation, TK105 and 266 guests