lamyl_hhlco
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B717 Or A318

Thu May 15, 2003 8:19 pm

If you had to manage an airline fleet to get it more efficient, what will you likely to choose if you had the choice between the 717 and the A319 for a 100 seats range? and why?

Lamyl

[Edited 2003-05-15 13:44:33]
 
TriStar500
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RE: B717 Or A319

Thu May 15, 2003 8:27 pm

The A319 is not in the 100 seat range, it is in the 130-150 seat range. A direct competitor to the 717 would be the A318.
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lamyl_hhlco
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RE: B717 Or A318

Thu May 15, 2003 8:43 pm

let's say the A318 , that's correct !
 
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canadianpylon
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RE: B717 Or A318

Thu May 15, 2003 10:54 pm

If you had to manage an airline fleet to get it more efficient, what will you likely to choose if you had the choice between the 717 and the A319 for a 100 seats range? and why?

Lamyl



It all depends on the route requirements. If you need a plane to do 10 to 12 short hops a day (CPH-OSL, LHR-AMS, FRA-MUC, YYZ-YUL) a light-weight 717 would be more efficient.

A High Gross Weight 717's range tops out at about 1400nm, so any routes beyond that would be better served by a A318/B737-600. Also, I imagine that the cargo capabilities of a A318/B737-600 are much better than the 717.

You'll have to qualify your statement a little better.

CanadianPylon
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L1011Fan
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RE: B717 Or A318

Thu May 15, 2003 11:06 pm

The 717 of course!!! It's more fuel efficient, cheaper, and simpler/easier to maintain.

 
Western737
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RE: B717 Or A318

Thu May 15, 2003 11:10 pm

I flew both and I was extremely impressed with 717 so I am going for 717.

 
BeltwayBandit
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RE: B717 Or A318

Thu May 15, 2003 11:16 pm

Airbus, because they're pretty much give you the aircraft if you agree to buy peanuts and refreshments.
 
BestWestern
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RE: B717 Or A318

Thu May 15, 2003 11:28 pm

Tell me Western 737 - where did you fly the A318?
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DIA
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RE: B717 Or A318

Thu May 15, 2003 11:37 pm

"I flew both and I was extremely impressed with 717 so I am going for 717." Instead of cracking a joke here, I'll just clarify. . .Lamyl_hhlco meant to say "If you had to manage an airline fleet to get it more efficient, what will you likely to choose if you had the choice between the 717 and the A318 for a 100 seats range? and why? He did not mean the A319. So Western737, you probably haven't been in the A318, unless you are a Project Manager with Airbus.

Let us not forget the A318 has much more range than the 717. That might warrent a decision against the 717. Personally, I like both a/c.

In the meantime, we are getting anxious to see the first Frontier A318. . .which will be the first A318 in revenue service in the world!

DIA
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
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mariner
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RE: B717 Or A318

Thu May 15, 2003 11:50 pm

DIA:

Not so long to wait for the first A318 - July. And we already know what the tail is - it's the brown bear checking his thong in the first Frontier commercial.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

The question is, will it be ready in time for the Paris Air Show, and, if it is, will be make an appearance? The prototype was at Farnborough last year.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
DIA
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RE: B717 Or A318

Thu May 15, 2003 11:56 pm

F9 livery at Farnborough. . .wow. That's great hype for Frontier. Who would have guessed that the "second" Frontier, who was flying a couple of 732s just a few years ago, would have come this far, this quick, and become one of a handful of airlines to actually operate a "first revenue flight" of a major new jetliner?!?! Great story for a great airline.

DIA
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
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mariner
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RE: B717 Or A318

Fri May 16, 2003 12:01 am

Paris, DIA, not Farnborough. The one at Farnborough last year was in Airbus colors.

But yes, I agree - li'l ol' Frontier as a launch airline? Who'd a thunk it?

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy

cheers

mariner
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elwood64151
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RE: B717 Or A318

Fri May 16, 2003 1:50 am

To answer the original question:

It would depend on route structure, as stated above. If we're talking about n/s flights JFK-LGB, then the A318 would definetely be your choice (if you wanted to go that small). More likely, the A318 would be suited for JFK-RNO or LGB-PNS.

If you're talking about short hops like PHF-ATL-MCO, then you're more inclined to go with the 717. If you have several of them, you could even fly LGA-ATL-GPT rather efficiently.

(You'll notice I'm using examples of real airlines, though some of the routes are made-up)

The operational characteristics of the A318 are a long-range, low-density route system similar to JetBlue's cross-country routes, with a modicum of frequency.

The characterisitcs of the 717 are for short-medium hops directly varying density and frequency (more density=more flights, less density=fewer flights).

The idea is, the 717 is a single-type scalable frequency aircraft, while the A318 is a scalable type (A318/19/20) limited frequency aircraft. Each has its own merits.

The real question is not what kind of aircraft you're going to fly as a low-cost/low fare carrier, but rather what kind of LCC are you going to be?

Of course, if you based your system at MCI, OKC, STL, DFW, or other mid-US airport, it'd be pretty tough to choose. That's when Boeing/Airbus really go head-to-head in the 100-seat market.
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Western737
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RE: B717 Or A318

Fri May 16, 2003 2:20 am

Actually I flew A319. I still considered A319 and A318 to be much alike except the length.

 
elwood64151
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RE: B717 Or A318

Fri May 16, 2003 2:26 am

Also, I forgot to mention that it depends on the airline's forseeable goals. If we're talking about an airline that has designs on significant international travel, the A318 might be a better option. The 717 is not particularly customized for flying accross international borders, though it obviously does, while I imagine the A318 is particularly suited for it, especially in European travel.

So if your focus is on a domestic, short-medium haul airline, I personally would choose the 717. If your focus is on long-haul flights, then the A318 would be a better choice. And if your focus is on international travel, well then it depends once again on length and density of routes rather than much of anything else (i.e. Minneapolis to Mexico City would be better in an A318, but ATL-FPT might be better served by a 717, while STL-CUN could be served by both).
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
srbmod
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RE: B717 Or A318

Sat May 17, 2003 6:00 am

The 717 is designed for multiple-frequency short-range flights (2 hours or less flight time), while the A318 is aimed towards longer, thinner domestic routes. The A318 is a heavier a/c than the 717 so the higher landing fees make it a more expensive a/c to operate on shorter flights. If I were to start an airline using one of these two types, I'd go with the 717, in both the standard and the HGW version.
 
lamyl_hhlco
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RE: B717 Or A318

Sat May 17, 2003 6:55 am

And which one do you think it'd make a better market sell?
 
srbmod
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RE: B717 Or A318

Sat May 17, 2003 8:31 am

The A318 is easier to sell because of it being part of a larger a/c family (A319/320/321), while the 717 is basically an orphan in the Boeing stables. The 717 makes sense for airlines that are operators of other members of the family tree (the 717 really shares little to no commonality with it's elder siblings, other than the basic design), but many ex-DC-9 operators replaced it with either A319/320s or 737NGs. Note that three of the airlines that operate (or operated) the 717 ordered them as a DC-9 replacement (AirTran, Hawaiian, and TWA). Several DC-9 operators were among the early candidates for the MD-95, Northwest has kept the DC-9 in service until an unknown date, SAS went with the 737-600 (and are rumored to not be enitrely happy with them).
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: B717 Or A318

Sat May 17, 2003 8:33 am

Well, if I was intending on starting a low fare carrier, I would first look at the markets available, and study the need for a new low fare carrier. Then, I would look at the routes, and figure out the mathematical information. I would then look at the aircraft available, and see which one would best be fit for the job at hand. I may go with the MD-95, or the A318, or depending on the destinations, may be both. If I had routes such as GPT-HOU, I would use the MD95, but if I had routes such as GPT-DEN, or GPT-LAS, I would use the A318, or A319
Puhdiddle
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: B717 Or A318

Sat May 17, 2003 1:41 pm

I'd go for the 717 for sure. I think it's a better all round airplane than the A318. Btw isn't the A318 the business variant kinda like the BBJ? I didn't think it was even in airline service.
 
srbmod
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RE: B717 Or A318

Sun May 18, 2003 3:19 am

The Airbus Corporate Jet (ACJ) is based on the A319; the A318 is a shrink of the A319, but I won't be surprised if Airbus developed a version of the ACJ using the A318 (I suggest they call it the Airbus Corporate Express).
 
fly707
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RE: B717 Or A318

Sun May 18, 2003 4:10 am

If Airbus 318 was powered by GE engines I'll choose it . But if not I'll go for the Boeing 717 .
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