Ciro
Topic Author
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 1999 5:00 pm

Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 8:48 pm

Are there any short / medium-haul flights that proved to be successful for flights departing between 10:00PM and 5:00AM ? Are reduced fare strategies very useful in these cases?

Thanks
The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
 
sk
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 11:04 pm

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 8:52 pm

In Europe - especially Germany - the flights to Turkey are very popular at this time. They may be cheaper then daylight flights, but it's a simple way for the airlines to offer them cheap, because otherwise the aircraft will be parked during the night. And the turkish families living here in Germany do not have a problem using these flights to visit the relatives.
 
gkirk
Posts: 23347
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 8:58 pm

Charter flights  Big thumbs up Cheaper at night so very popular, especially in the UK.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 9:43 pm

Charter flights indeed, our aircraft are nearly all busy through the night in Summer Season. Flew to Ibiza on Wednesday night (23:35 Dep / 05:10 Rtn), doing a night Corfu on 6th June (22:30 Dep / 05:35 Rtn). I much prefer them to early starts, although most of our pilots hate nights.

I think they're great - no traffic around so we get plenty of "directs", usually lovely and smooth, and some of the views at night are spectacular - great view of Barcelona on Wed night from FL370, and flying in over Ibiza town with the Castle all lit up and the nightlife in full swing too  Big grin

Night flights rule!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jan Mogren
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jan Mogren

I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
Ciro
Topic Author
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 1999 5:00 pm

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 9:44 pm

Any low-cost airline attempted to launch late-night flights?
The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 9:49 pm

"Any low-cost airline attempted to launch late-night flights?"

From June until October bmi baby have a daily EMA to IBZ flight
departing 22:10 landing 01:40 then returning 02:15 and landing 03:45.

I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
gkirk
Posts: 23347
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 10:12 pm

easyJet have a night Alicante that returns to Newcastle at about 2am in the morning on a saturday night.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Ciro
Topic Author
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 1999 5:00 pm

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 10:12 pm

Would late-evening flights to central airports be a good option for low-cost airlines?
The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
 
qantas747
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2000 12:51 pm

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 10:20 pm

Qantas has its late one deparitng from PER going to SYD and MEL every night around 2340-0005. And this is a traditional flight where the cheap seats are offered. These flights from perth are commonly know as the Red-eye specials

QANTAS747  Smile
 
petazulu
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:32 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 10:20 pm

JetBlue has numerous late night flights from JFK to the west coast of the US. Most leave at 9:30pm ish. The return flights leave at 1-2 am local time on the west coast and arrive just in time for work in the morning. In fact- there are many flights like this by all US carriers.

JetBlue takes it to a new level. For example the only flight on the JFK-Denver route is a late-night flight.
 
dstc47
Posts: 1264
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 3:53 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 10:22 pm

Many , many moons ago Aer Lingus used to offer "Starflights" and "Dawnflights" at reduced fares, well reduced compared to the regular fares anyhow, on the Irish sea routes, especially to London. I think they did Paris too,

That was in a situation when they were the only carrier on most of the routes and it usefully extended their utilisation of their aircraft, - as well as always generating good loads and diluting criticism of the high fares.

They died out sometime in the early 1970's.

I suspect you could buy today a flight cheaper in money terms, let alone real terms, due to enhanced competition than any "starflights" or dawnflights".
 
chepos
Posts: 5941
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 10:24 pm

Both JB and AA have late night flights from JFK to San Juan (they are very popular with the rowdy crowd , they do everything but sleep - and they are usually very cheap ) JB also has a 2am departure from San Juan to New York .
Chepos
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 10:25 pm

I am most likely dating myself tho Eastern Airlines use to offer late night flights greatly discounted. I think they even had there own name that they were promoted with, anyone else remember this?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 10:27 pm

DL out of CVG and ATL, I believe, have a lot of late-night service. I think DL has departures after 11pm to Florida out of ATL, and I know they have some flight after 11pm to the northeast out of CVG. I've used some of those flights out of CVG for rerouting oversold customersi in the past. They seem to be the exception though.
 
David_itl
Posts: 5970
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 10:40 pm

Olympic's ATH-MAN arrives here at 21.30 and leaves around 22.30, and LPL has various early morning flights by easyJet.

David
 
Ciro
Topic Author
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 1999 5:00 pm

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 10:50 pm

A question for the Southwest Airlines' specialists: SW is well-known for avoiding direct competition at all costs, so would flying late-night to central airports be a good option to expand operations?

The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 11:00 pm

Not really as they do not go into markets with one or two flights only. Look at the cities they serve and they run 10 to 15 flights a day minimum. Also they run so many flights they need some down time for there airplanes.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
odie
Posts: 1581
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 8:55 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Fri May 16, 2003 11:39 pm

Flights between south-east Asia and north-east Asia departs after 10 pm and they are pretty popular. Also, US transcontinental flight (from west to east) are pretty popular.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13502
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sat May 17, 2003 12:12 am

I am most likely dating myself tho Eastern Airlines use to offer late night flights greatly discounted. I think they even had there own name that they were promoted with, anyone else remember this?

Yes. Eastern Air Lines leased the bellies of their A-300s out at night to a freight operator in Houston. EA crews flew the planes as freighters by night, but management realized there was untapped revenue...the seats, which were going empty!

So, EA offered deeply discounted fares on these flights (all connecting via IAH), marketed as "The Moonlight Special." You had to fly on these late-night flights only, and couldn't take any checked baggage since the belly was already full of freight.

The ad campaign even used an up-tempo version of CCR's song "The Midnight Special" for the commercials, showing all sorts of energetic travelers filling the terminal:

If you're headin' for the East Coast, there's a new way to fly.
It's Eastern's Moonlight Special, and the price ain't high


The announcer would then mention the restrictions, and the song continued:

When the sun goes down, down...then the price does too. Let Eastern's Moonlight Special...shine it's ever-lovin' light on you..

And then flash to a backlit A-300 sitting on the ramp, ready to go.

The promotion was a huge success, as the planes were already paid for by the freight company (I believe it was CF) and the passengers were the gravy on top. It didn't last long, though; CF ended the contract and did their own flying.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sat May 17, 2003 12:22 am

Thanks that was a blast from the past. I knew it was a big promotion and all. Appreciate you taking the time.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
BA777
Posts: 2048
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 11:40 pm

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sat May 17, 2003 1:49 am

Rick,

Can ya return my last email please?  Smile

Henry
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sat May 17, 2003 2:25 am

UNITED DEN-IAD it use to leave at 11:59pm, i dont know if it still there.


ual 777 contrail
 
User avatar
HA_DC9
Posts: 563
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 1999 3:16 pm

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sat May 17, 2003 2:57 am

I think it depends on the location and route.

For example, many flights leaving Hawaii going to the continental US leave during the late night. These "red eye" flights arrive on the west coast at dawn. Many passengers like it because it is a 5 our flight to cross the Pacific so they can get some sleep and they can catch an early morning connecting flight to their final destination and be home in time for dinner.
 
aa61hvy
Posts: 13021
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 9:21 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sat May 17, 2003 3:05 am

I took an AA charter with Club Med from DFW-HUX we left DFW at 11:30pm and got to HUX at 2:30 a.m. We left HUX at 3:30 a.m. and got to DFW at 6:15 a.m. I did that run 3x's.
Go big or go home
 
Guest

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sat May 17, 2003 4:31 am

America West by far has the largest amount of late night flights of any carrier, mainly from the LAS hub but a couple from the PHX hub as well, to the west coast, east coast and I beleive we still have a few red eyes to the midwest as well.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24601
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sat May 17, 2003 4:41 am

Martinair, on Saturdays, as a 0130 departure from MIA to Amsterdam Schipol (other four days when it operates as AMS-MIA-SJO and back, it is a little more convienent at 2330). Iberia Airlines has a daily 0015 MIA-MAD departure (that has operated as late as a 0115 departure in the past), and during the winter months AF has a 2345 MIA-CDG departure. Aero Continente's MIA schedule, which seems to change daily, often features very late departures. Most recently, the Saturday Iquitos service left MIA at 0200.

Of course, MIA is huge with late night departures because that is the best way to get to deep South America.
a.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6877
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sat May 17, 2003 4:48 am

I know that there are some flights from the West Coast to Texas that take off between 0100-0200, which arrive 0500-0600, just in time for the first bank of flights of that day, or to get a full (and tiring) day of business in.

As for DL and CVG, the last bank has everything out by 2255, and these flights are to primarily to Northeast Corridor destinations.

Jeff
 
flymia
Posts: 6810
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sat May 17, 2003 7:05 am

I think United or AA has an flight that leaves SFO at around 11:00pm and lands in MIA at Around 5:00 AM
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Continental
Posts: 5222
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 3:46 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sat May 17, 2003 12:33 pm

I know that MSP has flights leaving around 10pm, like a lot of flights! Also, a ton arrive anywhere from 4-6 am, especially the LAS flights!

co
 
WMUPilot
Posts: 1428
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:48 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sat May 17, 2003 2:55 pm

Look at ATA and their late flights from MDW. Most that leave MDW at night arrive at their destination around midnight. I know that is not extremely late but they always seems to have a pretty hefty load on them.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
concorde1518
Posts: 723
Joined: Thu May 17, 2001 12:02 pm

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sat May 17, 2003 3:07 pm

With WN's high fleet utilization, the planes all stay grounded overnight, and knowing WN, they aren't about to change their business model to do redeyes.

Here's one instance where a redeye is good:
This summer I'm going to Cancun with my parents on Delta skymiles, and therefore we have to go thru ATL. All flights from ATL-CUN are morning, and so we depart SMF at 10ish to land at ATL in the morning, then head to CUN a little later.

 Smile
 
ilyag
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 12:58 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sat May 17, 2003 3:58 pm

Well, you have plenty on nigh-flights in TLV. For example, LX and LH both operate night flights with A332/A343 that arrive in TLV at 3:50AM and depart at 5:30AM to catch up morning connections from ZRH and FRA. There are many other flights from Europe to TLV operated at night (OK, AZ, MA, LO) and, of course, LY. Most transatlantic flights also depart around midnight, arriving in US/Canada at early morning hours. Return flights usually depart in the evening, arriving in TLV at noon of the next day.
 
portcolumbus
Posts: 1577
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 7:10 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sat May 17, 2003 8:00 pm

I usually take the late-night return LAS-CMH. Departs at 12:35am and gets into CMH at around 7am.
 
Ciro
Topic Author
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 1999 5:00 pm

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sun May 18, 2003 2:47 am

Lu2fly, regarding SW:

"Not really as they do not go into markets with one or two flights only. Look at the cities they serve and they run 10 to 15 flights a day minimum. Also they run so many flights they need some down time for there airplanes."

What about a strategy, specially focused on central airports, where daily departures would be limited to fewer flights; as Ryanair does? Depending on the reductions of the landing fees, the concept may be feasible.

Regards.
The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sun May 18, 2003 2:56 am

American had, perhaps it still does, have the last departure from JFK to LHR on a flight departing at 11:25pm or 11:40pm, arriving at around noon. On the return, the last flight from LHR to NYC is an 8:30pm on VS (not sure if it still is operating).

Also, there are plenty of red-eye departures from the West Coast to midwest and east, not just from LAX, SFO but also from SAN, SNA, OAK, SEA, PDX, etc..
 
717-200
Posts: 564
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2000 1:29 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sun May 18, 2003 3:54 am

Air Tran will have its first late night flights starting in June from LAX and LAS
to ATL with the A320's operated by Ryan Intl on our behalf

Flight 2 LAX-ATL 2345-0655

Flight 10 LAS-ATL 2345-0630


72S 733 734 735 73G 738 742 752 763 E190 M82 M83
 
ScottB
Posts: 5457
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sun May 18, 2003 4:06 am

The problem with cut-rate night flights geared towards increased utilization is that most of your variable costs still apply to those night flights -- things like labor, fuel, landing fees. And in some cases, you may have to pay a premium to your employees for working inconvenient hours (i.e. overnight). If you can get yields/RASM that aren't too far below your daytime numbers, then yes -- but you also run the risk of reducing your traffic during the day.

If memory serves, the U.S. carriers used to offer a lot more late-night flying back in the 1970's in part because the aircraft were going to be flying mail anyway. My parents flew those flights frequently since they were young, they didn't have a whole lot of money to spare, and the flights were a lot cheaper than the flights during the day.

Running a handful of late-night flights to currently unserved airports doesn't make sense for WN, since (1) they'd still have to hire people, buy equipment, rent gates, etc. at those airports, (2) many "central" airports have nighttime curfews, and (3) they don't do much late-night flying as it is, since the demand isn't there for them. Relying on temporary inducements like reductions in landing fees is not a sustainable business model for them.

That said, I can imagine WN starting a limited number of red-eye flights on its long-haul routes from Las Vegas, Phoenix, and the West Coast in the future -- 5-hour flight times and a 3-hour time change make a red-eye flight a desirable option for many passengers. jetBlue's startegy makes sense in light of their largest operations being at LGB and JFK -- red-eyes are desirable on cross-country flights.
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Sun May 18, 2003 7:37 am

BWIA 524 GND/JFK - Dept11:05P/Arr4:00P

BWIA 525 JFK?GND - Dept11:55P/Arr:4:55A

This is during the summber period and exact times of flights have been different throught the years
There is something special about planes....
 
Ciro
Topic Author
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 1999 5:00 pm

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Mon May 19, 2003 6:18 am

Scottb, interesting analysis... However airlines, like Ryanair, do quite well due the generous reductions in landing fees; so why not applying them on the 24-hour central airports? Ryanair, also, challenges the "traditional demand for air travel" while flying to more unusual places; so could the system be successful applied using such similar model, for red-eye flights in central locations?

Cheers
The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
 
Scott4AA
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 11:36 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Mon May 19, 2003 6:38 am

I think AA has a LAS-DFW leaving about 12:50am
American Airlines - We Know Why You Fly
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Mon May 19, 2003 6:39 am

Unfortunately, in the trimming of their route schedule UA eliminated most of their very late night flights and very early morning departures.

Now of course, transcons leaving from the west coast still leave late, but they eliminated the late LAS-IAD, for example, which kills me. That 11:59p DEN-IAD, which I also used to love, is no more.

Some of them were definitely not less expensive.

N
 
WMUPilot
Posts: 1428
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:48 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Mon May 19, 2003 1:35 pm

ATA also has a red eye out of LAX, SFO, and PHX to MDW....not sure if there is a red eye to IND from those cities. These flights are usually pretty full.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
babaero
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 4:39 am

RE: Demand For Very Late Night Flights

Mon May 19, 2003 10:00 pm

CX offer pax travel on its DHL flights to KIX,SIN,and ICN, departures from HKG are around 0200am

Who is online