ord
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Sun May 18, 2003 6:43 am

It looks like sometime in the next few months Delta will be turning over even more mainline flights at DFW to Delta Connection. Checking the schedules, the two flights to Oakland and two flights to Orange County will become CRJ-700s.

Also, the DFW-JFK flight is gone and not replaced.

These changes will leave Delta with 56 mainline flights (the peak in 1993 was 257):
1 - Albuquerque
11 - Atlanta
3 - Boston
3 - Cincinnati
2 - Ft. Lauderdale
4 - Las Vegas
4 - Los Angeles
3 - NY LaGuardia
3 - Orlando
2 - Portland
6 - Salt Lake City
3 - San Diego
3 - San Francisco
3 - Seattle
3 - Tampa
2 - West Palm Beach
 
aa61hvy
Posts: 13021
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 9:21 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Sun May 18, 2003 6:50 am

I was at DFW today, I saw 1 MD-88 and 1 737-800 of DL that actually moved.
Go big or go home
 
rajivvyas
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 11:39 pm

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Sun May 18, 2003 6:55 am

This trend is pretty much common with most other airlines also. NWA is doing the same thing.
 
UN_B732
Posts: 3529
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 12:57 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Sun May 18, 2003 7:37 am

An RJ from Dallas to Oakland...........Fun?
Maybe. But no meal :-(
-Transaero Boeing 737-200
What now?
 
YoungDon
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu May 31, 2001 9:33 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Sun May 18, 2003 10:32 am

Seems like Delta is slowly conceding the DFW battle to AA.

Oh well, as is such with competition...

Don
 
atcboy73
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 10:09 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Sun May 18, 2003 12:49 pm

Does anyone know what the total number of daily departures by Delta and the connection partners after these changes?
 
Sean-SAN-
Posts: 693
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:02 pm

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Sun May 18, 2003 2:31 pm

I can understand DL, why promote a money losing hub when they have a soon-to-be codeshare with CO in Houston..
 
atcboy73
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 10:09 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Sun May 18, 2003 8:06 pm

Good point there Sean.

Arent the total number of daily departures on the rise at Delta/DFW when you take connection into account?
 
deltadude8
Posts: 553
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 12:09 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Sun May 18, 2003 10:43 pm

Does this mean service to Kansas City Int'l (KMCI/MCI) will lose its service to DFW?
 
ord
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Mon May 19, 2003 10:54 pm

The service to Kansas City is untouched.

Delta and Delta Connection combined have about 270 departures a day at DFW, up from about 200 or so about five years ago. So yes, the actual number of flights is up even though capacity is down. The peak in 1993 was about 350 I believe.

 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 12:03 am

"Also, the DFW-JFK flight is gone and not replaced."

I flew this route on A^A in 2001. There was only one flight per day (MD-80). . .so I wonder if DL has/had only one flight as well? I guess that type of market demand isn't strong enough these days.

Here at DEN, we have Jetblue (one flight) to JFK. Everything else is to EWR and LGA. Even back at Stapleton, we had a daily TWA 727 to JFK, but no one else. Then that switched to a daily Pan Am 727, and sometimes 747, to JFK.

It has always seemed to me that service to JFK is sketchy around any city tin the mountain time zone, including DFW.

Looks like DL is giving up the goose for they're DFW hub. Will A^A pick up the extra slots?

DIA
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
JayDavis
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 1:09 pm

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 2:00 am

DL has long ago given up the goose at DFW !!
Unfortunately, the citizens of Dallas/Ft. Worth will be subjected to a
one carrier hub in the next few years......that sucks !!

At least we still have Southwest as an alternate within Texas and
over to New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arkansas and Louisiana. It is a shame
that the Wright Amendment won't be repealed.......


Jay
 
ti717
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 11:33 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 2:07 am

DIA
Slots are not an issue at DFW. Lots of Runways for everyone.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

As Listed earlier Delta/Delta connection is not cutting Flights just changing from Mainline flights to RJ's and adding RJ flights. I think there are a few markets that add capacity just with smaller planes (more flight) and a few markets have been added (floater beaches)

TI717
Sir, don't you think we should turn on the runway lights?" "No, that's just what there expecting us to do!"
 
Noise
Posts: 2017
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 1999 7:38 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 2:22 am

I guess we all expected this to happen. AA is doing the same thing with ORD, slowly pulling out and giving it to UAL.
 
ord
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 2:47 am

American is not pulling out of Chicago. It is completely not true.

There was an interesting comparison made by Delta in an industry magazine that shows how a 50-seat CRJ with 43 passengers (86% load) makes money vs. a 737-200 on the same route with 76 passengers (64% load) loses money. Using the RJs keep the DFW hub profitable.
 
william
Posts: 1622
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 2:52 am

The reason why DL is going thru the effort of adding service with RJs is that there are many loyal DL flyers and FFs.
 
william
Posts: 1622
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 2:53 am

As far AA giving up to UA.............While UA is in BK..........I don't think so......
 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:47 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 3:38 am

I also don't think DL will give up DFW. There are many communities in the SE who use DL service through DFW to connect with the West. Going back to ATL or up to CVG adds times.
 
TLHFLA
Posts: 492
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 10:19 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 7:53 am

Somone recently posted that Skywest is eyeballing IAH... There are two Skywest/DL Connection flights to DFW from TLH. I wonder if that means the end of those flights. It could mean the beginning of TLH-IAH flights if Skywest becomes a Continental Express carrier.
Bill in ATL
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 9:42 am

Your TLH-DFW flights are not affected by the new SkyWest/Continental hookup. SkyWest will be flying EMB120's for CO to small markets. TLH-IAH would be a pretty long flight in an EMB120.

DL's relationship with SkyWest is not changing for now and SkyWest continues to take delivery of RJ's for use in both the UA system and the DL system.
 
drewwright
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue May 15, 2001 3:51 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 11:58 am

It is hard to believe that Delta once flew L1011's from DFW to MSY and now it will be ERJ's. I am based here in Orlando with CHQ, and we have been told that Delta is planning to expand many services and open new one using our ERJ's. By the end of the summer we will be flying from Dallas to about 10 or so destinations. Some of which, haven't had jet service by Delta in more than a decade.

DRW
 
exusair
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 12:15 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 12:15 pm

It's absolutely disgusting what Delta has done to DFW. DFW ran heavy loads before the downsizing of the oepration. Most markets could have used larger a/c and there are several markets that warrented much more than an RJ.

It makes me think that there is some sort of collusion involved. That there is some sort of cash under the table scheme at work here.

The RJ's run full in most of the markets. Will mainline return with larger planes in a few months or will DL be content to make a few bucks as opposed to a bucketful of cash? There seems to be a realization that cuts have gone too deep at DL. Much like what happened after 7.5. The focus was strictly on reducing costs to meet a certain goal. The backlash from customers made DL reconsider their strategy and made them focus on the customer and revenue target, not on a cost target. An optomists view rather than a pessimists.

We'll see what transpires after labor rates are lowered amongst the pilot group and the cost associated with operating specific equipment types. Hopefully DL will add capacity back in DFW and other hubs. The market for used 737's is extremely favorable.
 
drewwright
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue May 15, 2001 3:51 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 12:30 pm

Exusair, I agree that Delta may be cutting to deep. We are supposed to compete against 737's and MD-80's with our ERJ's on the DFW-MSY run. I don't think that will cut it for the average business traveler. On the other hand. Delta is competing against both American and Southwest in many markets. True it is easy to fill a 76 out of Dallas, but they are being filled by passengers who are for the most part paying very cheap fares (ala WN). The seat mile costs are too high at Delta to break even. That is why they are using RJ's. Maybe when Delta gets their costs down some, they can compete mainline to mainline once again.

DRW
 
atcboy73
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 10:09 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 9:51 pm

I know times are changing and isn't it interesting to see things happen that you never thought would happen.

But lets not forget that Delta could close the DFW hub if it wanted to or if it had to. I think we should be happy its still there and if/when (did I say if, eeeeekk) the economy improves I bet we see some mainline expansion. This RJ thing could be just the thing they need to build mainline back again. With a strong RJ base at DFW there is no reason I see why they couldn't go at least 4 a day to almost all of their cities they now serve with mainline equipment. And the RJ also makes opposite direction services possible to places like LGA and LAX by mainline. If you don't understand what I mean just ask.

Has anyone ever thought the next step down the road for Delta is to build another satelight like the one they have? It could be used for more RJs  Big thumbs up
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 10:01 pm

It's absolutely disgusting what Delta has done to DFW. DFW ran heavy loads before the downsizing of the oepration. Most markets could have used larger a/c and there are several markets that warrented much more than an RJ.

Not true. Of DL's four domestic hubs, DFW has routinely had the worst load factors...not surprisingly ATL had the best.

To be fair, the loads at DFW weren't terrible, but the bigger problem was yields. In order to fill up the larger mainline planes, DL had to resort to extreme discounting.

On top of that, using mainline DL wasn't able to offer enough frequencies to be competitive. Three mainline flights from DFW-MSY isn't very attractive to business travelers either especially compared to AA and WN. So DL was forced to make a decision, trim capacity/increase frequencies with RJ's or abandon the DFW hub altogether?

Hopefully, if DL can get its costs more in line with the rest of the industry, they will be able to bring back some mainline. This might be especially true, when/if DL purchases a new 90-100 seat aircraft. However, the days of seeing 763's at DFW are over.

 
ord
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 10:51 pm

The previous comments by FlyPNS1 are correct. Delta has had trouble competing at DFW against American since they started the buildup after Braniff went under. I read an analysis that because American had more flights they had the pricing power in the DFW market. Delta had to price their flights according to what American did. But, with the fares equal, American was the preferred carrier because they offered more flights than Delta with higher frequencies. As a result, Delta's load factor has always been lower than American's out of DFW.

After deregulation Delta saw an opportunity at DFW to become a big #2. In thos days hubs with multiple carriers were common. You had Delta and Eastern in Atlanta, American and Braniff in Dallas, United and Continental in Denver, United and American in Chicago, etc. Hindsight is 20/20, but it has since been proven that a hub cannot support two major airline operations. Chicago is the exception because it is such a large market and the slots have artificially maintained competition.

I would love to see Delta buy a plane like the new Embraer 170. Then it could have its 70-seaters out of DFW but with the comfort and room of a bigger plane.
 
atcboy73
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 10:09 am

RE: More Delta Mainline Cuts At DFW

Tue May 20, 2003 11:16 pm

We have some very knowledgeable people here!

I need to download the latest timetable, and plan to do so today or tomorrow.

Some of those mainline numbers seem kinda small for an 8 bank a day hub, and I just noticed this. There are only two cities with three cities with four flights a day to the west. Id like to know how the banks stack up. Are the new banks smaller than the others? What is the average number of mainline planes per bank?

If someone doesn't beat me to it, Ill try to post this soon.

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