bmacleod
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AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Fri May 23, 2003 3:01 am

Well Robbie Milton seems to be planning to taking AC out of bankruptcy sooner than expected.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=840&ncid=737&e=9&u=/nm/20030522/wl_canada_nm/canada_airlines_airlayoffs_col
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
flyyul
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Fri May 23, 2003 3:49 am

According to Canada.com

Milton wants to cut another 7800 jobs at Air Canada..

This guy has got to go.

Mark
 
AC320
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Fri May 23, 2003 4:07 am

Well air Canada does need to tighten its belt somewhat. The airline's girth is simply way too big for what it does.
fuddle duddle
 
superdawg
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Fri May 23, 2003 5:07 am

Air Canada has one of the highest employee to plane ratios in the industry. It is overstaffed in comparison to an airline like Lufthansa who have more planes but less emloyees. It simply doesn't need the number of management and staff it has right now.

It is sad though for those who have to lose their jobs from an airline that has been mismanaged from the day it went private. Buying out Canadian didn't help it out either with all the costs involved and the extra staff brought on.
 
lymanm
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Fri May 23, 2003 6:40 am

While everyone says you cannot shrink yourself to profitability, there are simply too many AC employees. This isn't an excercise in trimming the fat, this is removing entire limbs, but it's necessary to avoid a shutdown.
buhh bye
 
captaingomes
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Fri May 23, 2003 8:02 am

It is very sad for the employees currently at Air Canada who will lose their jobs, but it must be done. Thing is too, the majority of these employees will not get anything remotely as good anywhere else, and will be earning much less money elsewhere, if they find anything.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Fri May 23, 2003 11:49 am

It is very sad for the employees currently at Air Canada who will lose their jobs, but it must be done.

Ironically, the AC unions are as much to blame as AC mgmt for the current bankruptcy of AC. Perhaps if the AC unionized employees had elected less militant union reps that were more willing to look at flexible work rules etc, AC would not be in bankruptcy now.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
na
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Fri May 23, 2003 5:30 pm

Every big shot currently thinks firing people is the way to go. Shareholders applaud and raise his salary.
Strange world, but this is also the best way to loose customers forever.
Car companies fire people. Unemployed don´t buy cars. Airlines fire people, unemployed don´t fly and so on. How do these guys think the economical recovery should start if every CEO does the same? With the money of millions of unemployed people having the time and money to spend months in the Caribbean?
 
Qb001
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Sat May 24, 2003 12:50 am

AC is nowhere near the bankruptcy exit. In fact, I've just heard on the news that the hypothesis of liquidation is being considered very seriously.

[Edited 2003-05-23 17:51:34]
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
captaingomes
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Sat May 24, 2003 1:26 am

Na, you are looking from a macro-perspective, while Air Canada is looking at a micro-perspective. It is true that when a large company such as Air Canada lays off workers, there are effects that are felt, as less money is thrown into the system, and less will come back. But let's look at it this way. Air Canada currently spends more than they make. They are putting more into the system then they are receiving. They now have to find ways to not only spend less money, but generate more revenue. Not an easy task, but unfortunately cutting labour expenses is one of many ways they can do it. It's no secret that Air Canada is currently overstaffed, so as sad as it is for each individual that gets laid off, they must take this step.

"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
lymanm
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Sat May 24, 2003 2:42 am

Nice logic NA...the difference between car industry employees and airline employees is that even though car people enjoy discounts on cars, airline employees travel for FREE. How does free employee travel help the bottom line?
buhh bye
 
donder10
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Sat May 24, 2003 9:33 am

According to Canada.com

Milton wants to cut another 7800 jobs at Air Canada..

This guy has got to go
LOL,why does he have to go?Unlike the unions,Milton appears to be awake to what is actually happening at AC(finally).AC is over-staffed due to the inflexible nature of its labour contracts which the unions seem averse to changing so job cuts will have to be implemented.Sad but AC are a loss-making entity after all.

 
Qb001
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Sat May 24, 2003 9:45 am

Just read that the Caisse de Dépôt et Placement du Québec sold all the AC shares it had, losing millions in the process. "And now, the end is near, and so I face, the final curtain"...
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
ramprat
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Sat May 24, 2003 10:44 am

Lymann,

Just so you know, we Air Canada employees do not fly free. Yes it is discounted, but definitely not free.
 
captaingomes
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Sat May 24, 2003 12:50 pm

Ramprat, Lymanm has a point. Eventhough it's reduced, and true that Air Canada does generate revenue from staff travel, it hardly helps profitability, and would not be a consideration as to if staff should be kept or not.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
ramprat
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Sun May 25, 2003 4:12 am

As stated by Lymann,

Nice logic NA...the difference between car industry employees and airline employees is that even though car people enjoy discounts on cars, airline employees travel for FREE. How does free employee travel help the bottom line?



We, same as the car people enjoy discounts, but it is not free, as was stated by Lymann. I am not saying we should keep employees because we dont fly free, just correcting an oversight. I am of the opinion, we should have just let Canadian go to their grave, then we wouldn't be in as deep as we are now. Yes, it would have put alot of people out of jobs, but thats exactly whats happening now anyways. We would probably still be hurting, but not to the degree we are now.
 
captaingomes
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Sun May 25, 2003 4:55 am

Air Canada is decreasing in size to what they were before the purchase of Canadi>n. In the end, you are right. Didn't get ahead at all.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Squigee
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Sun May 25, 2003 5:26 am

Donder -

Milton has to go because the guy was at the helm while the ship drifted into the rocks. It was his managerial bungling that got Air Canada into this mess. Rather than making careful business decisions about fleet rationalization, route frequency and pricing, he focused all the companies' energy and money into killing off the competition. Rather than improve the quality and cost-effectiveness of Air Canada, he instead spent his time getting rid of competing airlines (Canada 3000 to name but one...). Tango and Zip were bad ideas, as was the massive and costly rebranding of Jazz. (I won't spend time backing this up, because I've done it so many other times in other posts, do a search if you want).

I'm not going to say that the Unions have no fault in this. In fact, they bear a great deal of the blame. Everyone knows that the contracts and benefits at Air Canada are far to rich for this economic climate, and their unwillingness to compromise at the bargaining table ultimately causes their downfall. It's happened many times that union solidarity and pride leads to the unemployment line.

Bottom line- Milton guided the company from profitability and a monopoly, to a near bankruptcy. I feel that it's sad his staff has to pay the price, but it's only fair that he resigns as well.
Someday, we'll look back at this, laugh nervously, and then change the subject.
 
kdonohue
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Sun May 25, 2003 2:06 pm

Squigee,

You don't really think that Canada 3000's demise was the result of Air Canada, do you?

Didn't C3000 get a little too big, too quick?

 
Squigee
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Mon May 26, 2003 4:37 am

Kdonohue,

You are right, that was a major factor. Canada 3000 was trying to grow pretty quick to fill a niche that Canadian left, but more importantly, they switched from Charter to Scheduled services. At the time, a lot of analysts were questioning how wise that decision was. I remember listening to an interview with a transportation analyst who said "if they make this switch, there is no question in my mind it will be greatly detrimental to the company". I guess he was right!

Ultimately, however, it was Tango that put the last nail in the coffin. They competed on routes head to head, and with financial assistance from the mother company, Tango could put it's fares as low as it wanted without worrying about cost margins and profitability of routes. In my opinion (which is shared with quite a few others), without Tango, Canada 3000 would most likely still be around. It obviously wasn't a strong company if the introduction of a competitor could sink it, but it probably could have survived.

I'm sure, however, that there is someone who used to work at the company who can directly comment, I'm just the monday morning quarterback...  Big grin
Someday, we'll look back at this, laugh nervously, and then change the subject.
 
slawko
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Mon May 26, 2003 4:40 am

OH please!!!! Tango was around for what? a month before C3 went under??? Canada 3's demise was no ones fault but their own, they knew in August that the company was finished, its just that they didnt run out of cash until November...and with no established line of credit no one would give them any money....
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
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yyz717
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Mon May 26, 2003 4:47 am

Actually, Tango started on Nov 1/01....8 days before the C3 demise. Tango was just an excuse by Angus to deflect blame from his own many failures.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Squigee
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Mon May 26, 2003 8:02 am

Don't write off Tango's impact on C3 too fast... While it is true that Tango was launched on November 1, 2001, the official announcement of the airline was made in August of 2001. Tickets on the airline were being booked from October 11th onward. Taking into account that C3 declared bankruptcy on November 16, 2001, that gives us 37 days that Tango was operating while C3 was too.

I would not say that the sole factor causing C3's demise was the introduction of Tango, far from it. They were plagued with staff, management, and market related problems that probably would have finished them off without Tango. But it can be safely said that the airline did exacerbate C3's problems.

But, I digress, of course. This topic is about Air Canada's troubles, and they have lots of troubles to discuss without bringing in the woes of other airlines as well, no?  Big grin
Someday, we'll look back at this, laugh nervously, and then change the subject.
 
captaingomes
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Mon May 26, 2003 11:09 am

"they knew in August that the company was finished"

If they knew in August that the company was finished, why were they hiring pilots in November? Why didn't they lay off in September when everybody else laid off? I think there is more to the story and they closed C3 on their own will with better opportunities elsewhere.

In any event, I've seen details of what the unions are prepared to give to Air Canada for at least the flight attendants, and to say the least, there are a lot of cuts. From what I gather, at the very minimum, there will be 1,500 plus f/a's out of jobs, and that figure is apparantly conservative. Pilot layoffs will likely run in the 400+ range, although please keep in mind, these are rumours!
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
CRJ 900
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Mon May 26, 2003 11:08 pm

Now that Jazz has an agreement, they are talking about pulling us out of CCAA before mainline. If so and the pilots union at AC doesn't agree to the take it or leave deal given to them last week we could very well see a Canadian version of Crossair/Swissair. Before any of you start telling me that it's impossible. remember we have a deal already they don't. All they need to do is piss off the judge again( and he knows these ACPA clowns) and that's it.
 
captaingomes
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Tue May 27, 2003 12:20 am

I've seen people mention the Crossair/Swissair example, but what does that mean exactly? How are Crossair/Swissair any different from AC/Jazz, AA/Eagle and any other mainline/regional relationship?
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
CRJ 900
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Tue May 27, 2003 1:15 am

swissair(mainline) went bankrupt and crossair(regional) survived and took over what was left to become the new mainline carrier.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Tue May 27, 2003 1:22 am

When Swissair was shut down, Crossair relaunched a slimmed-down Swissair (with the approval of the Swiss govt & bankruptcy courts) under "Swiss Air Lines" which combined the former Swissair and Crossair under one airline run by Crossair mgmt. The irony was that the "commuter carrier" was now running & managing the mainline operation.

There is a further irony now in that the new Swiss Air Lines is close to bankruptcy again. It seems the business model for combining Swissair and Crossair under a smaller & leaner approach has not been successful.

Anyway, if Jazz is spun off from AC, it is possible that if the AC mainline is shut down (a la Swissair or Sabena) -- which could happen -- the bankruptcy courts in Canada could look for an existing airline to run a smaller AC using grounded AC assets.....and perhaps Jazz could be that party. A few big ifs here of course.....
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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canadianpylon
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Tue May 27, 2003 1:30 am

Crj 900

swissair(mainline) went bankrupt and crossair(regional) survived and took over what was left to become the new mainline carrier.


If I remember correctly, wasn't Crossair doing pretty good, and Swissair was bleeding red ink everywhere? Last time I heard, Jazz was of the biggest liabilities that Air Canada has, and they have tried to sell it off numerous times!

CanadianPylon
"Get it? Got it? Good...."


Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
 
flyyul
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Tue May 27, 2003 1:49 am

Just annnounced..

Air Canada has reached a deal with the CAW..... the details of this representing 9,600 employees will be brought forward live at 1pm..

Interesting..

Mark
 
captaingomes
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Tue May 27, 2003 1:56 am

Thanks for the replies yyz and crj!

I've seen details of the CUPE proposal, and it's very big. They are outlined elsewhere on the web, but in 10 minutes, we will all know about them anyways. Many of the items are no-brainers, some others are interesting. Hopefully we could debate it all in the next few days.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
CRJ 900
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Tue May 27, 2003 2:33 am

Well Canadianpylon, the same was said about CRAL and CP but CRAL was making tons of cash. They use that to offset the mainline's books and then they can point the finger somewhere else, it's called smoke and mirrors.
 
captaingomes
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Tue May 27, 2003 2:39 am

Sorry .... I was a bit confused there. It's the CAW deal that was outlined in the news release, and I have seen the CUPE, not CAW deal.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
bmacleod
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Thu May 29, 2003 2:55 am

A deal with AC flight attendants has just been announced.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/05/28/aircanada_030528
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
captaingomes
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Thu May 29, 2003 3:04 am

Thanks for posting that article!

I'm surprised the article didn't go into more details regarding the F/A deal. I have seen on the weekend some of the details that were being negotiated and they were quite interesting.

I am now looking forward to hear the official deal between Air Canada and its pilots. From what I understand, layoffs will be roughly 600 (no clue on duration), and pay will be 2 tier, based on the current 737 and 767 aircraft. The A320 series pilots will be paid according to today's 737 pilots. 747, A330/340 pilots will receive pay according to today's 767. Because of the layoffs, many, if not most pilots will get demoted, either by aircraft type or from captain to f/o. On top of that, pilots will receive a 15% decrease in pay across the board.

What does this mean to many pilots? Say a pilot is a captain on the A330 and gets demoted to f/o. This captain will of course lose the pay premium that captains make, which is very high. They also lose the premium they would have received for flying the A330 compared to the 767. On top of that, he gets 15% knocked off. That is a HUGE pay decrease for most pilots!

Needless to say, please keep in mind that these are the rumours floating around, and we shall wait to see what the official word is.

[Edited 2003-05-28 20:05:19]
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Thu May 29, 2003 3:14 am

What does this mean to many pilots? Say a pilot is a captain on the A330 and gets demoted to f/o. This captain will of course lose the pay premium that captains make, which is very high. They also lose the premium they would have received for flying the A330 compared to the 767. On top of that, he gets 15% knocked off. That is a HUGE pay decrease for most pilots!

Well, that's life in the private sector (aka the real world). If the pay reductions are too much, these pilots can try new careers. No big sympathy from me. I (and every one of my friends I went to univ with) have lost our jobs at least once. Pilots are no different than any other profession.

To get to KEEP your job at reduced pay at ANY bankrupt company is extremely lucky.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
captaingomes
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Thu May 29, 2003 3:40 am

Neil, I do agree with you, I was just outlining the rumours that I read and hear regarding pay for Air Canada pilots. The pilots who keep their jobs but get demoted, while suffering huge financial consequences should consider themselves lucky to be working and still make more than their equivalents at other airlines in Canada. To give a real world example in order to compare situations (one of very many), I know of a pilot who lost his job as a 737 captain at Royal/C3 when it went bankrupt. He was likely making around 6 figures, but I am not sure. He has since gone to Westjet, loves it there, but is now making in the low 30's per year.

I think the real issue that will present itself in the future when and if things rebound is that Canadian pilots are paid less than elsewhere in the developed world. Not sure if this is a function of Canada's relatively small economy, or if it's a function of market forces not being able to work effectively compared to elsewhere in the developed world.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Thu May 29, 2003 3:49 am

Well, I would argue that if the AC 319/320 pilots are still making more than their equivalents at Westjet & Jetsgo, then they will still be overpaid (since the revenue base supporting their salaries is no bigger at AC than WJ or Jetsgo).

I think the real issue that will present itself in the future when and if things rebound is that Canadian pilots are paid less than elsewhere in the developed world.

This is not the proper benchmark. The benchmark is at what salary levels & revenue levels can Canadian airlines make money. If Canadian yields are lower than in the rest of the world, then pilots salaries should be lower than in the rest of the world.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Samurai 777
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Thu May 29, 2003 3:57 am

It's just been announced that AC's reached a deal with all unions, except the ACPA. Not surprising, given the rocky relationship AC's had with its pilots. How soon will AC be able to go ahead with its layoffs, and what implications will there be if AC is unable to reach a deal with the pilots? I'm sure the pilots will accept a significant pay reduction down the road, though.

http://www.stockhouse.ca/news/news.asp?tick=AC.A&newsid=1708711
 
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yyz717
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Thu May 29, 2003 5:24 am

what implications will there be if AC is unable to reach a deal with the pilots?

There is no limit. A shutdown of AC & subsequent liquidation is a very real possibility if the creditors lose patience with ACPA.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
captaingomes
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Thu May 29, 2003 5:38 am

I don't think there will be any problems with ACPA reaching a deal with Air Canada. I can see many of the seniors voting no, because they are the ones who will see the greatest monetary loss, but as long as their retirements are kept intact as with the other employee groups, maybe a good portion of the well paid seniors will just retire early.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
captaingomes
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RE: AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy

Thu May 29, 2003 5:42 am

"This is not the proper benchmark. The benchmark is at what salary levels & revenue levels can Canadian airlines make money. If Canadian yields are lower than in the rest of the world, then pilots salaries should be lower than in the rest of the world."

I agree with that, but when yields improve, Air Canada is arguably in the best position to take advantage of increased yields when the economy rebounds, compared to other airlines in Canada.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster

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