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Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Sun May 25, 2003 11:05 pm

Attn ROC spotters (are there any) Saturday will be the last day for Delta mainline in ROC. June 1st will see Comair CRJ 200/700 's to ATL. What a joke - we lost mainline CO & A^A went Eagle in Feb . No more MD80's here,either. We're probably the only airport that doesn't have NG737's either.
Hopefully the weather will cooperate and I can get a picture of it.
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DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Sun May 25, 2003 11:53 pm

How fitting that June is the month in which Delta ceases mainline service at ROC. June, of 2001 I think it was, was the month in which Delta abruptly canceled service at ROC for two weeks. They'd had a year's warning about runway work that required smaller a/c for two weeks; somehow all the other airlines were able to comply. But with a week's notice, Delta abruptly canceled TWO WEEKS' WORTH of nearly full 722's and dumped the pax onto other airlines. "Delta: We have Contempt for Medium-Size Markets, and it Shows." Jerks.

Yes, I'm bitching about that again, and I will until Uncle Leo apologizes to the Rochester/ Monroe County community in person and submits to having Genesee Beer poured over his head in stocks in St. Mary's Square.

Hope you can get a picture, Scott. I see that a new photographer just got a picture of an MD-88 in Deltaflot colors landing on Rwy 4.

Jim
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon May 26, 2003 12:13 am

I guess ROC hasn't proven it can support mainline service. At least you are keeping Delta service.... and I see that one extra daily frequency to ATL is being added with the MD-80 drop.

I wish one day this site would see an attitude change from "XYZ Airlines sucks because they don't fly pretty planes to my airport anymore" and realize the economic implications of flying in a certain aircraft type just so you can photograph it.

Regarding June 2001... perhaps Delta was unable to make it work with smaller aircraft due to availability, scheduling, etc? They may have seen it as more economic to put people on other carriers.
 
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon May 26, 2003 12:37 am

Jeese,951U I was just saying I wanted to get a picture . Yes,ROC is a joke (city is too in some ways) .
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vincent32
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon May 26, 2003 1:12 am

Guys, Guys...
Yeah its sad that all the majors are pulling out of ROC to put in regionals. And come on, the city is not that much of a joke...I mean maybe the inner loop will make you want to pull your hair out anytime from 4-6pm... Smile/happy/getting dizzy

But, granted, it is a shame to see DL mainline leaving. I also live in ALB part-time and fortunately we still have mainline on everything but AA. Hopefully we'll see some increased service in ROC otherwise B6 and FL are going to reign supreme. Smile/happy/getting dizzy Time will tell.
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AmericanMD80
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon May 26, 2003 1:56 am

Picked my mom up at ROC on 5/21
she was on the 10:10 flight from ATL on an MD-80, new colors.
Sad that this is one of the last times we'll see Delta Mainline in ROC.


Joe
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tekelberry
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon May 26, 2003 2:16 am

DL upgraded some of their MKE routes from MD80s to 738s and some DL Connection flights to 733s so I think they do care about some medium-size markets.
 
upsmd11
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon May 26, 2003 2:58 am

It is a very nice thing to have mainline service in your city, also nice to get upgraded aircraft as well. When DL stopped flying the 727 here in SDF I was hoping for a 738 or 757 but it hasn't happened. The load factors dictate which aircraft the airlines fly into your area. There are similar, if not smaller, cities that get 757 DL service, such as BHM, BNA and SAV. But these cities must all have something (tourism, fewer airlines) that dictate the loads.

I was very upset when US pulled all mainline service here and now only have CRJ/ERJ/D38/DH8 service. You would think that they could keep a few of the flights mainline! I would prefer to have the frequencies though.

I am worried about AA pulling out of the STL hub though. With the addition of AA service here we now get great connections out west. DFW and ORD are both viable options, but ORD was just instituted and sometimes the connections out of DFW are not as quick as you would like them to be.

WN is another factor in the decisions here. Their presence has helped lower other fares but also cut capacity for the other carriers as well.

John
 
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon May 26, 2003 2:59 am

And just last month we got a 757 (Damn I missed it!!) But just because its full doesn't mean its making $$ . Just gonna miss the loud MD88 already miss the 727.......
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afitch7881
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon May 26, 2003 3:46 am

"We have Contempt for Medium-Size Markets, and it Shows"


Delta certainly doesnt dislike BDL, another medium sized market which sees on a regular basis 2-4 daily 767 departures on top of song coming!


Sorry to rub it in,

Eric
 
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon May 26, 2003 6:31 am

Regarding June 2001... perhaps Delta was unable to make it work with smaller aircraft due to availability, scheduling, etc? They may have seen it as more economic to put people on other carriers.

Again, Delta had a year's notice, and June is high travel season...many people could not be accomodated on other flights the same days. There's no excuse for what Delta did, it represents plain arrogance and contempt. Regarding Hartford, it has a much bigger catchment area than Rochester, and Delta has a history there going back to the '50s maybe earlier. I doubt they would pull such a maneuver on Hartford.

I'm not talking about "flying pretty planes to my home town" or other such uneconomic concerns. I'm talking about competing, which Delta clearly doesn't want to do. At least it means that AirTran has established itself in Rochester and Delta clearly thinks it isn't worthwhile to turn predatory. If AirTran and JetBlue "reign supreme" that's a good thing, and all six Cartel-network carriers and/ or their affiliates are still in town to provide more detailed network coverage. But it's interesting that they don't try...probably because they treated us so badly in the 1990's that local businesses remember, and are making heavy use of B6 and FL's excellent products.

Jim
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ouboy79
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon May 26, 2003 12:08 pm

One thing about Delta...as Jim has pointed out...medium sized markets are the red headed step children of the system. You either are their #1 priority or just something they can dispose off when they choose.

It is sad for any city to lose mainline service...we lost mainline DL in 98 here in TOL and things haven't changed much since. Load factors are still high...around 80% to ATL (2 CR7 1 CRJ) and around 70% to CVG (3 CRJ 6 FRJ). All in all we are up in frequencies by two (added to CVG market)...but down around 170 seats still since the pull out. If we can get a couple more to ATL and the MCO service, we'll be all set.

ROC probably has a strong chance of seeing mainline DL return once they get their house in order. However, they are going to have to offer more services and fair fares in order to win the people over.
 
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon May 26, 2003 9:40 pm

Again, Delta had a year's notice, and June is high travel season...many people could not be accomodated on other flights the same days. There's no excuse for what Delta did, it represents plain arrogance and contempt.

You can keep spouting that as long as you want, it won't make it right.

I'm talking about competing, which Delta clearly doesn't want to do. At least it means that AirTran has established itself in Rochester and Delta clearly thinks it isn't worthwhile to turn predatory.

Perhaps the market has grown as much as it will and AirTran took a permanent sector of Delta's passengers, or that travel just doesn't exist anymore. No need for Delta to keep the capacity when it isn't necessary. At least Delta added one daily flight to ROC, providing more travel options.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon May 26, 2003 9:45 pm

I myself believe a whole lot of markets suffer from over capacity, the market just might not be there anymore. Although most airlines are guilty of over capacity, it seems like Delta in this case is saying no to ROC. In this day and age it might not be possible to allocate the $$$'s to carry losing routes.
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon May 26, 2003 11:56 pm

You can keep spouting that as long as you want, it won't make it right.

You can keep spouting *that* as long as you want, that doesn't make it right. Air travel is a customer service business; it is extremely unprofessional to just pull your service on short notice. Air travel, like it or not, also has a public-good quality to it, and just pulling a big chunk of seat capacity on short notice because your lazy managers didn't make small adjustments that could have preserved it, is abusive of the community involved. Again, *you* can keep spouting that Delta didn't do anything wrong, but that doesn't make what you're saying right. An agree-to-disagree situation, I guess.

In any event, at least the the new DL arrangement will give the market greater frequencies, which is worth something too.

Jim
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Tue May 27, 2003 9:41 pm

It's one of those unexplainable situations....
If AirTran dropped ROC for two weeks, it'd be just fine because AirTran would simply have been a.) abused by other airlines, b.) abused by the airport authority, c.) redeploying resources to better serve customers. All in a positive light of course....

It's kind of like Southwest's pilots flying around naked. The company simply said "we're handling it internally" and the media left it alone. If a pilot at American flew in a cockpit in his undershirt, the media and everybody would act like it's the armageddon.
 
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Tue May 27, 2003 9:51 pm

What other cities are losing mainline June 1st ? BUF or SYR ?
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Tue May 27, 2003 11:29 pm

BUF is also losing Delta Mainline June 1st.
 
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Tue May 27, 2003 11:55 pm

BUF is also losing service then too, but I also believe that frequency on the CRJ's and CR7's will increase to seven or eight daily flights. Still sad to see Delta mainline leave though.

Could these cuts in mainline service be because of Delta allocating 757s to Song and the need for the larger aircraft elsewhere? That is the first thing that I thought when I learned about these mainline cuts a couple of months ago.

CVG777
 
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Wed May 28, 2003 12:27 am

I got a few descent MD88 pics Sunday & Monday . New colors & mid . I even saw a Comair CRJ in old Widget colors - something neat to see  Big grin I also see that USAir still has 737's - I thought they were all parked . I wonder,do Delta employees retained by Comair or do they have to re-apply ?
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DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Wed May 28, 2003 2:46 am

CVG--I don't think Song is a factor; the 757's are being switched for Delta Express 732's which are being moved back into regular Delta service. Unless, possibly, there's a big net seat increase over to Song. Does anyone know how much of a net seat capacity increase over DLX Song represents?

SYR and ALB are retaining mainline service for now; they don't have nasty AirTran messing up yields to Atlanta.

We Upstate New Yorkers should also not be too shocked if, and more likely when, United switches our ORD flights to all Air Wisky and ACA. I don't understand that one--UA and AA do not have LCC's messing up their yields from UNY to ORD. But AA switched UNY to all RJ's, and UA's in worse financial shape than they are.

Meanwhile, Northwest with its somewhat lower CASM began nonstop mainline service on ROC-MSP this past winter. I don't think that was accidental; the demand for westbound service is there, and NW probably can make money more easily on it than AA. Expect SYR-MSP before too long too, I think.

Jim
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Wed May 28, 2003 5:47 am

But AA switched UNY to all RJ's, and UA's in worse financial shape than they are.

Probably understandable.... American put in lower cost RJ's while United continues to lose more money with larger mainline planes at higher cost.
 
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Sat May 31, 2003 4:29 am

Here's good one- our local newspaper ran a blurb about Delta mainline being replaced by CRJ's . They stated that Delta currently flies 2 149seat 727's to ATL to be replaced by RJ's of Comair & ASA . In truth,we have 2 MD88 and they will be replaced by Comair only . Figures,if it aint the Buffalo Bills,Kodak or Xerox , the paper screws it up!
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DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Sat May 31, 2003 10:07 am

Yeah, Scott, I saw that too, and just rolled my eyes. The headline on the web edition was "Delta Increases Frequencies to Atlanta," which could well have been written by the Delta marketing department. Good grief.

Jim
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Sat May 31, 2003 10:35 am

Yep,more frequencies,less capacity. Tomorrow is the last day! I imagine the 10pm arrival will leave as the first one out on Sunday even though the d/l timetable doesn't state that.
No more loud scheduled pax jets after that .
Jim,I got a nice pic of Kodak's Challenger ,as rw 4 was in use this afternoon ! Alas,no Sheriff harrasment in a long time!
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Sat May 31, 2003 11:39 am

Down in New Orleans, we're talking big-time capacity reductions as of September, with around 5 767 and 757 flights switiching to MD-88's on the ATL route even though the big Boeing's go out full every day with passengers and cargo. Intestesting time for them to do this, as September is when the travel to MSY picks up from the normally mediocre Summer months. I'm hoping it's just a temporary thing. The day DL stops all 767 flying into MSY as a whole will be the day I lose my last shred of respect for the airline, hands down.

Also, as previously stated, we will witness the LAST mainline flight to DFW.

When DL decided to switch 3 737-800 flights to DFW to 7 CRJ and 1 M90 flight as of April 3rd, there was much publicity down here about how great this would be do to the increased frequency and also how they would still have a full-size jet flight perfect for DL's elite travellers in both directions. Let me tell you, from what I have heard, the lone mainline flight does excellent...nearly full every day. And a good deal of this traffic is higher-paying buisness travellers...MSY-DFW/DAL is a good biz route...one of only a handful of good biz routes from MSY. So what does DL do? Bye bye MD-90 as of September 1....replaced by a CR7...the nice 80 seat downgrade...no first class....pathetic. You can bet American is licking its chops on this, as they have absolutely no trouble filling its 6 daily MD-80's (and the occasional 757) on the route, in both Y and F classes. AA has a 92%+ load factor on all MSY flights year round, with DFW being its key market. Delta has in effect said "Ok, AA, you can have all our first class passengers...we obviously don't need the extra revenue."

Nothing that Delta does surprises me anymore, I have grown to accept this.

Sorry to hear about Delta screwing you Rochester.


Steve in NOLA
.
 
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Sat May 31, 2003 11:52 am

It's too bad really. ROC is a nice airport and Rochester itself is a fairly big city. I personally would rather have a few daily MD88's then several RJ's. One MD88 flight in the morning, one at noon, and one in the evening, what's wrong with that? You don't need 5 or 6 daily flights, as long as you cover the peak traffic hours.

So what airlines are left flying mainstream into ROC?

Okay, I can understand ROC is a little empty, but BUF!? Buffalo is a major city and the airport is the same size as PVD, and we get 4 or 5 daily ATL and CVG flights with MD88's and 757's! BUF is plenty busy enough to support the same 757 and MD88's to ATL and CVG.

Delta is my favorite airline, but the way Leo has been running things, I am starting to get disappointed. I love Delta, I just don't like the way Leo runs things. This whole RJ craze is stupid, they call them REGIONAL jets for a reason!

Just my 2 cents

-GD727
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Sat May 31, 2003 2:23 pm

The only 'mainstream' airlines to ROC are USAirways with their subsidiaries,NW supplemented by Mesaba and Pinacle,UA supplemented to ORD by ACA's CRJ200's. Airtran's 717's to CO / KMCO), USA - Florida">MCO,BWI & ATL are still here. All ROC-IAD is by ACA's CRJ's & J41's. All CO to EWR & CLE is with ERJ's.
Sad,a 757 is a major event here! We'll have to see what the LPGA brings along with the Buffalo Bills' trainging camp this fall. Last year we saw a NW 757 bring then to CLE.
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AmericanMD80
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Sun Jun 01, 2003 1:06 am

I was out last night around 1:30 with my friends, and we drove through the airport (one gilr had never been so we had to go through it) and I saw two Delta planes at the gate, one comair crj200, and a md88 in new colors. sad to see mainline leave ROC, but it might come again soon.

*also, it was really neat to see all the airplanes parked last night, there were a few USAir airbi including a 321 with it's cabin lights on, and rear left door open.

Joe
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:19 am

It's sad to lose mainline, but the economics dictate where planes go.

In terms of ROC/BUF, I believe those cities may see the return of mainline sometime down the road. However, for the time being they are better served by RJ's. If you haven't noticed, the US economy isn't exactly booming and upstate New York certainly isn't the fastest growing region of the country. Even lowfare carriers like Airtran are struggling to squeeze out a meager profit, so how are network carriers whose costs are inherently higher supposed to make money?

You also have to realize that DL has never been a major player in Upstate New York. Historically, USAirways was the dominant carrier which meant USAirways traditionally got the bulk of the higher yield/business traffic and the corporate accounts. DL's presence in ROC/BUF was largely a network strength issue (your hubs are only as strong as the number of spokes they are connected to), plus to shuttle people into Florida where DL has been historically the strongest. Now, the arrival of Airtran/JetBlue/Southwest(BUF only) has trashed what little high yielding traffic DL could get from Upstate New York. So the question becomes, should DL keep sending a limited resource (mainline planes) into a market that has never been a major contributor to the DL system?
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Sun Jun 01, 2003 7:39 am

DL's presence in ROC/BUF was largely a network strength issue (your hubs are only as strong as the number of spokes they are connected to), plus to shuttle people into Florida where DL has been historically the strongest. Now, the arrival of Airtran/JetBlue/Southwest(BUF only) has trashed what little high yielding traffic DL could get from Upstate New York. So the question becomes, should DL keep sending a limited resource (mainline planes) into a market that has never been a major contributor to the DL system?

Actually, Delta entered Upstate New York shortly before Eastern's liquidation and inherited EA's well-established market position there. Eastern had been a major player at all four medium-size UNY markets. At one point in the mid-80's, Eastern was the second-largest carrier at ROC, with 3 ATL/ 3 PHL, mostly 722's. EA had also flown L1011's to BUF for almost 20 years, the last remaining scheduled pax jumbos in UNY after AA's DC-10s headed south in 1981. So market position, I think, is not the issue.

The impression I get is that Delta decided it wasn't worth trying to compete. Several large companies in Rochester had committed to spending certain amounts of money on AirTran (although there is no travel bank), so going predatory wouldn't work. The idea is that lower fares stimulate enplanements as airlines compete, instead of just giving up or going predatory. But DL's cost structure apparently is still so far out of line that it's not worth their while to try.

And as several have said, frequency will be helpful especially to business pax. And the net seat capacity on ROC-ATL, with AirTran's presence, is still almost 700 daily, which is what it was back in the late '90s. Were the economy better, seat capacity and enplanements would probably be higher, as they should be when lower fares are available.

Jim

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zrb2
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Sun Jun 01, 2003 9:46 pm

Interesting to note that whenever I've mentioned the new Delta/Comair arrangement in BUF to my friends and family (non-aviation enthusiasts)...they are thrilled with the added frequencies. Most could care less about losing larger planes, loss of Delta mainline, etc... All they care is that Jets will still be servicing the route to ATL. Especially all the people I know in Atlanta that fly up just for Bills home game and have to leave right after. Last year Delta did not have the 8:30pm Sunday flight so they had to rush like crazy to get on AirTran. Now these guys are all happy about the later Delta flights.

As for me, I don't like the continuing trend of Buffalo (or Rochester) becoming Regional jet cities. These markets are plenty big enough to support the larger jets. I've flown into BUF at least 12 times since 9/11 on different carriers (WN, CO, UA) and almost all of those flights were packed (not holiday flights). On a nothing day one month ago I took WN and the flight was oversold. Not only that , all 7 BWI-BUF 737 flights that day were sold out so the people they bumped couldn't even fly out that day.
 
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon Jun 02, 2003 6:00 am

Last night I drove thru the airport to see which plane would make the last departure,and there wasn't one. There was no 10pm arrival.
I wonder if it got a water cannon salute when DL1271 left yesterday - doubt it knowing ROC  Sad
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon Jun 02, 2003 9:19 am

Joe,I saw that USAir A321 last nite . Looked neat. I wonder if , like before it goes to CLT,then CUN ?
I hate to say it,but I wouldn't be surprised to see UA pull out of ROC. The only good part is that ACA doesn't have anything bigger than a CRJ200,unlike ASA and Comair who have CRJ700's .
Hopefully the LPGA will bring in a 757 like they did 2 years ago. It was North American's and it looked fabulous! And , maybe VP Cheney will come in AF2 like Al Gore did when he was running - I'de take off from work for that one,but I'm sure the Monroe (moron)County Sherrifs would run everyone off who parked on Paul Road to see it  Sad
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AmericanMD80
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:05 am

yeah, it'd be cool to see some new stuff in ROC, but I guess when I move I will get a larger variety!

Joe
*americanmd80*
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Flaps
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:10 am

Actually, I prefer most RJ's (exception being the 100 series CRJ's) to mainline service. Also, I dont consider the 738 to be an upgrade over the MD88. The MD88 having slightly wider seats/aisle and a bit more elbow room as well. Just because an aircraft is newer or more technically sophisticated it isnt necessarily an upgrade. Hell, if the Embraer 145LR could do transatlantic I would take it over a 767 any day.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Last Week For Delta In ROC :(

Mon Jun 02, 2003 1:54 pm

Joe,I saw that USAir A321 last nite . Looked neat. I wonder if , like before it goes to CLT,then CUN ? I hate to say it,but I wouldn't be surprised to see UA pull out of ROC. The only good part is that ACA doesn't have anything bigger than a CRJ200,unlike ASA and Comair who have CRJ700's .

It's possible that US Airways A321's may become more common at ROC as the airline consolidates its Northeast hub traffic at PHL. US can't afford to run two Northeast hubs anymore, and PHL has much greater O & D than PIT (read easier to fill high-yield transatlantic and transcon flights). From pretty much everything I read, PIT's days as a hub are numbered. US will keep running RJ's there for the local O & D, and mainline to hubs and DCA, LGA, etc. That means anywhere from 10-12 million connecting pax a year that will be sent to PHL and CLT, mostly PHL.

US will probably concentrate its 319-320-321's at PHL and CLT, which means that ROC, BUF et al. will probably see bigger a/c to PHL instead of a big increase in frequencies. PHL's bad runway layout makes a huge increase in departures impractical.

I agree Scott, UA is in such bad shape that they'll probably reduce ROC-ORD to Air Wisky (probably ARJ's as well as CRJ's; UA has traditionally had heavier ROC-ORD traffic than AA has). But the problem is *not* demand, as NW's new ROC-MSP shows. The problem is, can the airline make money? UA and AA's cost structures are still too high to make money easily in the new economic world.

Jim
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