bigphilnyc
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Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Mon Jun 09, 2003 9:39 pm

I was wondering what Air Canada was replacing the BAe-146s with. I hope not CRJs.

And when did/will they retire them? Did it happen already? If not, when is the last day that I'll see a 146 in LGA?
Phil Derner Jr.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Mon Jun 09, 2003 10:34 pm

AC Jazz is still operating all 10 146's. As they probably will not last thru the end of 2003, the most likely replacement is the CRJ-200.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
bigphilnyc
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Mon Jun 09, 2003 10:38 pm

I thought Jazz was being shut down as of AC's filing for bankruptcy?
Phil Derner Jr.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Mon Jun 09, 2003 10:42 pm

What I have read is that Jazz is going to be flying even more routes because of AC bankruptcy! Zip and tango I believe are on borrowed time.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
yow
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Mon Jun 09, 2003 10:43 pm

Neil, I don't think they'll be gone from the fleet that soon. They will have to be replaced by CRJ700/900s, not 200s, especially if you look at some of the routes the 146s operate on. Besides, why would they have already painted most of the 146s into Jazz new colours if they weren't going to be around for at least a couple more years? Probably more like sometime in 2005, but on my part, just speculation.
 
RJ100
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Mon Jun 09, 2003 10:50 pm

Hello

Can someone give me an update on Air Canada's financial situation? I am planning a trip to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland this summer and was considering AC's LHR-St.John's-Halifax flight as well as several intra-Canadian flights.

Should I book AC or not?

Thanks for your replies.

RJ100
none
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Mon Jun 09, 2003 10:57 pm

You should book, yes. Like United and USAirways before that, operations continue normally, especially now with a pilot agreement in place.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
bigphilnyc
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Mon Jun 09, 2003 11:14 pm

AC's BAe's were already painted long before they filed for BP on April 1, 2003.

I knew they'd replace them with CRJs. Damn.
Phil Derner Jr.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:34 am

Andrew, a recent AC press release identified the 146, 732 & 744 fleets due for retirement very soon. I doubt they will last to year end.

The CRJ-200 is the likely 146 replacement despite the reduced capacity. Any CRJ-700/900 order is likely some time off.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
RJ100
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Tue Jun 10, 2003 3:56 am

Thanks for the answers. I'm looking forward using their services!

RJ100
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bigphilnyc
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Tue Jun 10, 2003 5:12 am

Of course they are going to replace the 146s with a smaller plane. If the BAe's were flying full, then they probably wouldn't be going bankrupt to begin with!

The AC CRJs are probably the nicest looking out of all of the regional jets that I've seen at LGA.
Phil Derner Jr.
 
AC330
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:04 am

I am really going to miss the BAe 146's that Jazz has. Living on Canada's east coast I have had the opportunity to travel on this aircraft type several times and I love it! Hopefully I can get one last flight on the 146 before it's gone.

AC330
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:43 am

They're my favourite in the fleet, and one of the only interesting AC birds at YUL. I will miss them. I wish someone else can pick them up, but I guess they're too expensive to operate to be practical for anyone in the area. Canjet comes to mind, they, like the 146's and their techs, are based at YHZ, but I guess they're sticking with old 732's.  Sad Anyone have any more insight on whether they would be at all feasible for Canjet to use on smaller routes? YOW-YQB-YHZ or something like that?

Wishful thinking I guess.
Next flight.... who knows.
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:43 am

The 70/90 seat order will be made at the end of this year (4th Quarter) But the aircraft will go to Mainline, the current mainline CRJ fleet will move over to Jazz, and will be used to replace the 146's. I've heard that EMB stand a good chance of winning the order with the EMB-170 as it is a combined Star Alliance order, but only time will tell..the feds may put together a deal for ACA/BBD that neither one can pass up at the last minute.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:25 pm

Hey Slawko,

From what I understood from these past negotiations, the two pilot parties will find themselves locked in for a bidding war for these 70 -110 seat airplanes. The advantage being to the Jazz pilots of course...

... do you think the new machines will nevertheless find themselves with dark green tails?

As for the feds I can see Con Tapette pushing for those new 70 seat Bombardier... train wagons. Stats don't lie and apparently these are the pinnacle of fuel economy and passenger comfort.

As much as I'd love to see myself strapped into one of these lovely jumbo jungle jets, I don't see this happening. US has CRJ's and so does United. The 717 is more probable. AC has to make due with Boeing one day or another, in these tough economic times, it's advantageous not to put all your eggs in one basket.

And besides... I'd be nice to hear a couple of BR715's to cut through the maze of CFM 56 noise that YYZ finds itself soaked in.
 
yow
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:32 pm

That is very true Neil, however the target date for the 732s according to the Globe & Mail is early to mid-2005, so the 146s might be in that range too. The thing is many of the routes the 146 operates are not well suited for CRJ 200s, such as YXY-YVR or YYT-YHZ and the YVR-Northern BC runs. Don't think AC wants to lose J class to many of those places. True you could operate a mix of CRJs and 732s in the meantime, but I really wonder if AC would want to shift CRJ crews out west to replace a small number of aircraft, before a the entry of more RJs?

I actully got to fly on a 146 for the first time last week YXY-YVR. A nice aircraft, although I wish the window seat was placed closer to the window. It's a quiet bird, on par with the CRJ, except when the flaps are deployed, boy are they ever loud!

Andrew  Smile
 
spyderz
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Tue Jun 10, 2003 3:12 pm

Most of the routes Air Canada flies with their BAE-146's could be accomodated with a mix of new 100 seat aircraft (i.e. 318, 717) and CRJ's. The major selling point of the 146 was its great operational performance from difficult airports. Air Canada flies the 146's to relatively few of these airports (mostly in northern BC) and these flights could be replaced by Dash 8-300's or if they require extra capacity an aircraft that I think would be a nice fit for Air Canada, the Dash 8-400.

While Air Canada will order more RJ's, I feel Air Canada could pull a Horizon and order both types of aircraft. One of the major reasons behind the boom in the regional jet market is that passengers prefer to fly regional jets instead of turboprops as well as their increased range for longer and thinner routes. Unlike in the states where all the majors have RJ's to keep their passengers satisfied, Air Canada faces no similar competition domestically in Canada. Their competition operate 737/MD80's, so the passengers options is lof a larger or smaller aircraft regardless of if its a turboprop or not. RJ's could fly the longer sectors and transborder routes, whereas the -400's could provide the extra capacity and would have fleet commonality with the other Dash 8's and provide fairly low costs for a 70-seater aircraft.
 
yow
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:02 am

Spyderz I fully agree with you. That is why I cannot see the 146 leaving the fleet until a direct replacement is introduced, which probably won't happen until 2005.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:12 am

Spyderz...you make some good points. The lack of competition for AC Jazz on many routes make the Q400 more reasonable. Anyway, Horizon Air reports no loss of traffic on Q400 routes that compete against turbofans.

I could see a Jazz order for the Q400 and CRJ-700/900. An EMB order by Jazz or AC would unleash a storm of controversy but of course as a private sector company AC can certainly opt for the EMB.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:22 am

While an order for EMB's by AC would certainly unleash a storm of controversy, if AC is purchasing in bulk with Star Alliance members, all of a sudden the purchase has an international, rather than national scope. If the Star Alliance is to take in the benefits of economies of scale by purchasing with other international airlines, then it's an international competition and the best deal wins. SAS, United, Lufthansa don't care that Bombardier is a Canadian firm, and surely together they have more clout than AC does in Star Alliance.

It will be interesting to see though, and I look forward to the outcome. Of course, I am still leaning towards the 717.  Smile
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:30 am

If the Star Alliance is to take in the benefits of economies of scale by purchasing with other international airlines, then it's an international competition and the best deal wins. SAS, United, Lufthansa don't care that Bombardier is a Canadian firm, and surely together they have more clout than AC does in Star Alliance.

Exactly Nuno! Rumour has it that LH is very interested in the 717. LH is arguably the most dominant partner in Star Alliance now (given UA's financial woes) so this could tip the balance to the 717. I'm hoping anyway.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
fallingeese
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:55 am

The most likely decision for Air Canada is to go with Bombardier, and maybe the 717. If they go Embraer then look for a shit storm in Ottawa, and I'm guessing it won't be pretty. Air Canada's position in the Star Alliance should have some pull towards buying Bombardier, and the fact that the aircraft are already certified, is another benefit.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:03 am

Fallingeese, let's make a few assumptions, and they are likely unrealistic. Let's assume the CRJ 700 is an inferior product to the ERJ 170. Let's also assume it is more expensive to purchase. While Air Canada may still feel it is better off purchasing the CRJ 700 due to Bombardier being its corporate neighbour, and there are indirect benefits from ordering the CRJ that may outweigh the direct benefits of purchasing the ERJ, the other Star Alliance members wont feel that way. With globalization, the best international product will win, and that may be the ERJ, or it may be the CRJ. It is up to all those concerned to determine which is better for themselves. These days, purchasing from a nationalistic standpoint is not a good plan, as it could cost your business a lot, and in the airline business, any advantage is important.

Keep in mind, the assumptions above are likely not true, and I am sure the CRJ more than holds its own against the ERJ. They have key differences and now it's up to Star Alliance collectively to determine which fits their needs better. I am hoping for an order for CRJ's in the low end, and 717's in the 100 seat category.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
fallingeese
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:15 am

I agree there, that the best product should win, but whether or not it will...who knows.

In my opinion Bombardier is a better choice since it enables them to replace some of the dash 8's, some of the first ones off of the line. Take the DHC 8-400 instance, it would fit into Air Canada perfectly, and Embraer has nothing that competes here. Whether or not the order will go for 70 and 90 seat aircraft could be interesting, as maybe 70 and 100 seat aircraft might make more sense with what the market is like.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
bmacleod
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:20 am

The 717 would probably be quite cheaper than the 318. Now if AC is really trying to cut its expenses, it would be more logical to order the 717. After all why did it keep the DC-9 for 36 years? The DC-9 was one of the easiest aircraft to fly, according to many pilots.
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
Samurai 777
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RE: Air Canada BAe-146 Retirement

Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:47 am

I would think it's wise to hang on the BAe 146s until the 70-100 seaters start coming in. For one thing, it's becoming more profitable for most airlines to operate aircraft in that size range where a 737-200 or an A319 won't cut it financially. As for AC ordering such aircraft in that size range, it could go either way as far as Bombardier and Embraer is concerned.

If AC went for Embraer ERJs, then, yes, Ottawa is likely to raise hell for reasons related to that little trade spat with Brazil a few years ago. But I don't think there's much the feds can do if AC went in that direction. If AC went for the CRJ, then there's the benefit of commonality and cheaper maintenance costs as they'd only have to deal with one family of RJs, not two. I don't know how much of a cockpit commonality there is between the CRJ-200 and the -700/900 series, but if there is, then that's an advantage.

However, Bombardier has been playing games in the sense that it will sell its aircraft for a lower price or give tax breaks only to non-Canadian customers. Not surprisingly, this is why it has also been rumored that AC has been looking at the ATR 42/72 and other manufacturers for Dash 8 replacements and for a larger turboprop then the Dash 8-300.

I agree that the Dash 8-400 could fit nicely in AC Jazz's plan, for it can go where it might be too difficult for a CRJ-700 to land in. Also, I think it's cheaper to run a turboprop on very short-haul routes such as YEG-YYC and YVR-YYJ than for an RJ.

Andrew,

You might want to check your email. Big grin