noelg
Posts: 2313
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2002 11:39 pm

Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:21 pm

Forgive me if I'm asking a silly question, but can someone tell me why the only US airlines to fly from LHR are UA/AA?

I was once told there was a reason why DL/NW/US etc use Gatwick instead, and that it was something to do with the authorities not giving them rights to fly into LHR, but is there a definate answer?

Would it not be simpler to let all the US airlines fly into one airport much as is the case at CDG/FRA etc?

Thanks,
Noel.
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6059
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:37 pm

I believe that it's due to the Bermuda 2 treaty between the US & UK, whereby only airlines from either country (AA & UA from the US and BA & VS from the UK) are allowed to fly to the US from LHR. There are also a restrictions on which new routes can be started and so on.

BD have been lobbying heavily to get rid of the Bermuda 2, so they can utilize their large number of slots for flights to the US.
 
noelg
Posts: 2313
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2002 11:39 pm

RE: Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:26 pm

Thanks CPH! Sounds a bit pathetic to me as well - if its scrapped it would make the entire London airport system a lot easier to plan and a lot simpler!

At present, if you want to need to connect through the LHR/LGW, you'd have to catch a bus with all your baggage which would take about an hour - it wouldn't be so bad if they were located a bit closer together!! At least if some more of the American airlines flew into LHR it would only be across Heathrow Airport!
 
gigneil
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Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:49 pm

Heathrow is a very slot constrained airport.... even if we DO arrive at an open skies agreement, its unlikely very many US airlines will be granted many slots.

N
 
Guest

RE: Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:57 pm

Heathrow is a very slot constrained airport.... even if we DO arrive at an open skies agreement, its unlikely very many US airlines will be granted many slots.

Well, DUH - GB wants to protect BA and who can blame them?
 
LHR340
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Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 1:18 am

RE: Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Sat Jun 14, 2003 12:09 am

Well, DUH - GB wants to protect BA and who can blame them? no - LHR is a very crowded & slot restricted airport, but as LHR is BA's hub they probably get first pick at slots if they become available - but I doubt this because a few new airlines have started.

LHR340
A340 LoVeR! EC-GQK - LHR The Bussiest International Airport & 3rd Bussiest In The World!
 
Guest

RE: Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Sat Jun 14, 2003 12:25 am

no - LHR is a very crowded & slot restricted airport

That isn't the point. If DL, NW, CO and US had access to LHR, it would hurt AA, UA and BA's operations there. For example, if CO began flying EWR-LHR and DL JFK-LHR, UA would likely drop those routes and BA would likely drop some flights as well. AA/UA/BA's yields and profits would be hurt. Great Britain knows this, which is why they opposed DL and CO receiving just one daily flight to LHR.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:09 am

Bermuda2's purpose was basically to prevent high-yield LON service from becoming what LAX-TYO service is like today.

The latter route would be immeasureably more profitable for the carriers which serve it were only NW/UA and JL/NH (plus three select other foreign carriers) were allowed to be those carriers.

Instead, we've seen JL, NW, UA, NH, DL, TG, MH, RG, SQ, KE, etc all fly the route more or less at the same time... and though the traffic between Los Angeles and Tokyo is plentiful and typically high yield, it was difficult for many of those carriers to actually make money on the route due to the swamp of competition... hence dropping it.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
2cn
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:30 pm

RE: Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:25 am

Something that surprised me, according to the latest Delta Digest (Deltas employee magazine), in the Q&A section, someone had sent in a question regarding whether Delta would start service from JFK to LGW, and the answer was they could not due to Bermuda 2.. now, I thought they had served the route before??? so I'm confused. They said it was because LHR and LGW "markets, governed by the Bermuda 2 bilateral agreement between the United States and United Kingdom, Delta does not have the rights to serve Gatwick from New York-JFK." Is that actually true? Like I said, I thought they had been serving that market already.. maybe I just imagined a flight to LGW out of JFK or something.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:40 am

All the carriers that serve NYC are the only ones who have the traffic rights at this time. In order for Delta to have rights they would have to get them from a carrier that presently serve LON, such as AA, UA or CO all who have service from the NYC area. Delta does offer a chance to earn mile with VS, and now the code share with CO and NW they effectively offer NYC.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:45 am

Nope. DL serves LGW from ATL and CVG. In the recent past, they've served it from BOS as well... but never JFK.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:17 am

Bermuda 2 is an outdated, dinosaur agreement designed to meet the needs of air travel in the 70's. Time has moved on, but the B2 agreement still lives in the past.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
MSPMAN
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2000 1:22 pm

RE: Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:48 am

Bermuda 2 is outdated but works currently because of the lack of slots situation. I have a question, if say one of the exclusive UK carrier service cities changes to a US carrier service then BA can fly LHR-MSP? Also, if they allow one more airline to operate LHR ex BMI and CO. Then under the current agreement CO could operated MSP-LHR. Would CO operate the route with their own plane or could they let NW use that slot and fly their own plane? I dream of ether a CO 777-200 to LHR at gate G5 ot a BA 777-200 to LHR at H5.
John
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Mon Jun 16, 2003 4:49 am

Though CO would indeed be the next airline into LHR should a revision allow a 3rd airline from either country (due to a previous agreement)... I doubt they could then switch that authority with a non-immunized competitor (i.e., NW)
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
TLHFLA
Posts: 492
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 10:19 am

RE: Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:37 am

Another factor of this agreement is that AA must have operations at both LHR and LGW. Flights to London from DFW, RDU, and STL must use Gatwick instead of Heathrow. Only the flights to London from ORD, JFK, MIA and BOS may use Heathrow.
Bill in ATL
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Why Don't DL/US/NW Fly From LHR?

Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:43 am

Only the flights to London from ORD, JFK, MIA and BOS may use Heathrow

AA's LAX flight also arrives at LHR, as did their former EWR run.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!

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