IslandHopper
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Do (or Did) Any Airlines Fly 3-crew 767s?

Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:07 am

A friend of mine is a non-union charter pilot, and we were talking about pilot unions and some of the ridiculous demands they make. He said that although the 767 was designed to be flown by two crew, one airline (or more?) was forced to order three-crew 767s from Boeing because their pilot unions insisted that the airlines hire an extra (and completely useless) flight engineer.

I did some research on Boeing's website and found this:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/pf/pf_fltdeck.html

"Eleven of the 12 airlines that had ordered the three-crew 767s changed their orders to the two-crew design."

Who was this one holdout airline, and are they still flying their 767s with three crew? Any 757s similarly configured (since they have a common cockpit)?
 
luv2fly
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RE: Do (or Did) Any Airlines Fly 3-crew 767s?

Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:14 am

I believe it was Ansett. And we all know where they are flying these days.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Ndebele
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RE: Do (or Did) Any Airlines Fly 3-crew 767s?

Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:14 am

I think it was Ansett, but I'm not sure.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Do (or Did) Any Airlines Fly 3-crew 767s?

Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:19 am

It was definitely Ansett.

A classic example of union rules reducing efficiency and profit.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Do (or Did) Any Airlines Fly 3-crew 767s?

Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:22 am

Yes, Ansett had some B767s configured with a flight engineer panel, but I believe the planes have since been modified and thus are now suitable for 2 men operations.... strange story!
 
DeltaRules
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RE: Do (or Did) Any Airlines Fly 3-crew 767s?

Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:31 am

It was Ansett. They had five 3-crew 767s, and there was a story about it in Airliners magazine a few years ago. The F/E's panel looked pretty basic; a couple gauges, a few buttons & a video screen.

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IslandHopper
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RE: Do (or Did) Any Airlines Fly 3-crew 767s?

Tue Jun 17, 2003 4:02 am

>The F/E's panel looked pretty basic; a couple gauges, a few buttons & a video screen.

Why, so he could watch the IFE?  Nuts

The link I gave above talks about the controversy surrounding the two-crew setup. Were all passenger jets before the 757/767 three crew? Even the DC9, BAC-111, 737 and Caravelle? I thought at least the DC9 and 737 were two crew.
 
jetstar
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RE: Do (or Did) Any Airlines Fly 3-crew 767s?

Tue Jun 17, 2003 5:30 am

The 737 and DC-9 were certified for two pilot operation. The airline pilots union, ALPA objected to the two pilot operation of these twin engine jets and singled out the 737, they ruled that any US airline operating the 737 had to be flown by 3 pilots.

Very few US airlines ordered the 737 because the DC-9 could be flown by 2 pilots, but the 737 had to be flown by 3 pilots and because of this union rule the DC-9 outsold the 737.

United and Western for many years had flight engineers on their 737's. These planes had no flight engineer station and the FE sat on the observers seat and reached the same switches the pilots could reach. After the FAA ruled that the 757/767 could be operated safely by 2 pilots, the union dropped the requirement for 3 pilots on the 737
 
covert
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RE: Do (or Did) Any Airlines Fly 3-crew 767s?

Tue Jun 17, 2003 6:33 am

Anybody have any pictures of these odd 3-man cockpit arrangements?
none
 
timz
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RE: DC-9s Etc

Tue Jun 17, 2003 7:53 am

The 3-man/2-man dispute dates from the 1950s at least. Was it Northwest that wanted B377s without F/Es? As I recall, 80,000 lb MTOW was eventually set as the US two-crew maximum and the DC-9 was originally planned to stay within that limit-- which I guess must have been relaxed around that time.
 
Guest

RE: Do (or Did) Any Airlines Fly 3-crew 767s?

Tue Jun 17, 2003 1:06 pm

On long flights, over 8 hours flight time, depending on the country's aviation rules, 2 pilots airplanes require a 3rd pilot (augmented crew) anyway...
And 4 pilots (double crew) for flights over 12 hours...
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POSITIVE RATE
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RE: Do (or Did) Any Airlines Fly 3-crew 767s?

Tue Jun 17, 2003 1:36 pm

That's correct, it was Ansett Australia that used to fly 3 crew 767's. I was actually on board one of their 767-200's and visited the flightdeck in flight(this was back in '97) and yep there was a flight engineer sitting there at his station.
 
AJ
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RE: Do (or Did) Any Airlines Fly 3-crew 767s?

Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:10 pm

On it's first flight the 767 was fitted with a flight engineer's panel as the FAA were refusing to allow a two pilot flightdeck. After much arguing the FAA backed down and Boeing modified the flightdeck to a two crew setup.
As has been mentioned Ansett's B767-277s were initially operated with three crew, before being modified in line with their B767-204s.
 
AJ
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RE: Do (or Did) Any Airlines Fly 3-crew 767s?

Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:32 pm

Here's what it looked like:

Compare the engineer's panel to the normal panel at http://webpages.charter.net/flyian/757-767/fe.htm.
 
IslandHopper
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RE: Do (or Did) Any Airlines Fly 3-crew 767s?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:07 am

Thanks for the pictures AJ. So Ansett was still flying them 3-crew in the late '90s? No wonder they went bankrupt.

>On long flights, over 8 hours flight time, depending on the country's aviation rules, 2 pilots airplanes require a 3rd pilot (augmented crew) anyway...
And 4 pilots (double crew) for flights over 12 hours...

What about the 3 pilot 767? I bet Ansett's unions would require an extra replacement flight engineer too. After all, they need relief from all the work they were doing.  Smile

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