N79969
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Qatar Nixes B777

Tue Jun 17, 2003 11:32 pm

 
N79969
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Tue Jun 17, 2003 11:49 pm

 
Airbus Lover
Posts: 3163
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 12:04 am

Surprising... I almost thought we would see a triple 7 in QR colors..

but perhaps they mentioned Boeing as a possible supplier up till last week to secure better deal from Airbus...
 
L1011Fan
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 12:32 am

It sounds like Boeing needs new leadership at the helm. They have lost WAY too many orders to Airbus.
 
Navion
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 12:37 am

Qatar was probably bottom fishing for prices and Boeing usually doesn't play that game. They tried it on the Iberia deal and Airbus simply matched them tit-for-tat. Qatar is not going to get a "deal" on the 777. Many of the 777 sales victories came despite the 777 having a higher price than the A340. My source is the Wall Street Journal.
 
na
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 12:53 am

Navion, that might be right or not. One truth remains, Boeing lost too many battles. If they don´t like to play the game that´s on, it´ll stay that way. Could it be that Airbus simply can offer better prices because they produce at lower costs? A LH manager said so recently, that Boeings production process is simply inferior as a whole.
 
gigneil
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:03 am

Boeing's production process is far older than Airbus'... its hard to throw out almost 100 years of process and start anew.

N
 
wunderk
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:08 am

Speaking of Airbus vs Boeing, there's a very interesting article on this week's "Economist" magazine from Britain regarding some of the shady deals involved in airliner purchasing in the 1990s. The article gives an investigative insight into deals such as Kuwait Airways post-Gulf War deal in 1991, as well as numerous others.
 
Greg
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:09 am

Boeings production process has been slowly modified to a moving ssembly line system over the lasty five years so their production process is actually newer than most the competition. It is also extremely flexible.

Boeing can produce aircraft far more quickly than Airbus. Unfortunately, and this is the single biggest kicker---they can not produce them for less cost.

When it comes down to it---that is what's going to make the sale: PRICE
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:10 am

That's actually not a surprise given QR already flies an all-Airbus fleet. Airbus probably threw in a nice maintainance package for the entire QR fleet so the airline could buy the A330-200 on the cheap.

 
N79969
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:17 am

I don't think the trouble is with Boeing's management. They should not sell products at a loss. Boeing and Airbus live by different sets of rules. Has Qatar been trying to get into CDG? Does it want to sell prawns to Europe?
 
gigneil
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:21 am

Dear god give it a rest. Come up with a more compelling argument than the same tired rhetoric over and over.

Airbus is making a profit. They may not have as wide a profit margin as Boeing, but they also didn't have to send 15,000 workers home for good either.


N
 
brons2
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:26 am

A LH manager said so recently, that Boeings production process is simply inferior as a whole.

This is the same Boeing that wind tunnel tested the 777 for 5000 hours versus the 2500 hours put in on the A380 by Airbus, leaving the Airbus engineers to make excuses why they didn't test it as much? The same Airbus that produced the underperforming A343 and the overweight (read: fat) 345/346? The same LH that is the flag carrier of one of the original Airbus consortium nations?

Yeah, okay.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
N79969
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:29 am

Why? Because you don't like hearing it? It is a fair question given the history. The Economist has documented this apparent quid pro quo at CDG: it looks like Air Mauritius got the same deal as did Malaysia. This is a way of doing business. But I suppose we have to respect it merely because it is different and after all we must respect foreign cultures.

I don't necessarily believe that Qatar was bribed into a deal but I think it would be self-deceiving to dismiss the possibility. I think Navion provided the best explanation.




 
Navion
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:37 am

Regarding Gigneil's comment that Airbus makes a profit, I don't believe you know that. You need to state a source because as it stands now, almost NO ONE has been able to identify what they truly do or don't make. I have striven for a few years to determine what money has gone where and it has been an impossible task so far. And don't forget, Airbus "going public" with a clean slate after years of up front costs have been "taken care of" by God knows who or what (and no Gigneil, while you do seem bright, you don't know either because almost no one does) makes for a much more competitive stance. Airbus costs may be lower due to a lack of burden of past years billions spent getting it up and running. It's very tough to say what Airbus has actually paid back and what it has been forgiven. It's much like when people say the Concorde actually could produce a profit, but didn't count the billions of development cost that (in the case of Concorde) was written off and thus not "counted" in the determination of whether Concorde operations were profitiable or not. I realize it's an extreme example, but it highlights the "creative" accounting possible. Another example is the almost impossible task of determining whether Embraer, Bombardier, or both are transgressing WTO fair trade rules and engaging in unfair subsidies. There is a lot of evidence on both sides and yet clear consensus has been difficult. With Airbus multi-country, multi-company, multi-structure history, I think it's impossible. I do believe Airbus has a more competitive cost advantage, namely that they can go wherever they need to go to get a deal they want. It's good for them and bad for Boeing.
 
AFa340-300E
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:54 am

Hello Navion,

1. On this side of the Atlantic, defamation is punished by law.
2. It's not us who invented "accounting creativity".


Best regards,
Alain Mengus
ATB - Paris Air Show 2003
 
manni
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:00 am

First Emirates, now Qatar. Both airlines from the Arabian penninsula... both favoring Airbus rather than Boeing. Perhaps Boeing should blame Bush for that  Big grin
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
na
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:09 am

Well, Bush did everything he could that at least Iraq will order Boeings...  Big grin
 
N79969
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:14 am

Alain,

How is defamation relevant to this discussion? Who was defamed? Except for my remarks, I don't think anyone has said anything even mildly desultory about Airbus.

The opaque financial structure of Airbus makes it very difficult to ascertain to actual financial performance. Also, if you read the Economist special report, I think you will find Airbus is exceedingly creative when it comes to business 'arrangments.' What about Credit Lyonnais?

Anyway Airbus scored another one.

[Edited 2003-06-17 19:21:25]
 
Scorpio
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:05 am

The main reason Airbus can undercut Boeing is production cost. Airbus can build an aircraft more efficiently than Boeing. There was a report about this about a year ago (I believe) which was discussed in detail on these forums. Airbus needs less employees to build an aircraft than Boeing, because of higher automation, and more efficient production methods. Take a look at the production: Airbus will deliver 300 planes this year, from 4 production lines (A300/310, A320, A318/319/321, A330/340). Boeing will deliver 280 planes from 8 (!) lines: 717, 737 (3 parallel lines at Renton), 747, 757, 767, 777. More lines for less planes, equals less efficiency. The same goes for design. There are only 2 fuselage cross-sections for all current Airbuses. There are 6 for Boeing. This adds to costs of development.

N79969,

Your hatred of everything French is well-known on these forums, but do you have to bring it up every single time? It seems that for you Airbus is guilty until proven innocent. The opposite seems to be true about Boeing. As far as double standards go... (Just take a look at the discussion on the Economist article: Airbus is already guilty for you (willing to bet money, remember?) but if anyone DARES to suggest the same might be true for Boeing, you go ballistic). It hurts your credibility. There is nothing to suggest anything shady in this deal. Nothing. So don't spoil yet another thread with your insinuations, please.
 
N79969
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:07 am

Scorpio,

Read reply 13 one more time. Also, I think you grossly oversimplify why Airbus may be more efficient. I think it is debateable about which manufacturer is actually more efficient.

[Edited 2003-06-17 20:11:42]
 
Scorpio
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:15 am

In normal practice the subject of corruption is not discussed untill there are indications of it. YOU however bring it up for EVERY deal Airbus closes, whether there are indications or not, all because of your legendary dislike of everything french. That's simply not very fair. It's a witchhunt.
 
NDSchu777
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:17 am

First Emirates, now Qatar. Both airlines from the Arabian penninsula... both favoring Airbus rather than Boeing. Perhaps Boeing should blame Bush for that

I don't understand where bashing Bush comes into play here. Just trying to make the A vs. B debate even more controversial by randomly throwing politics in there.

And anyway, in regards to Emirates, they just announced that they'll be operating 26 new 777-300ERs, so it's not like they've refused to negotiate with Boeing and use their products since the war.

And as far as Qatar, they've always been an all-Airbus fleet. It was more surprising that they were negotiating with Boeing. My guess, is their intention was to stick with the A340 and talk to the competition in order to get a better deal from Airbus. It's something lots of airlines do and it works.

--Nick

 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:27 am

Well, it was Mr. Bush who did something which isn´t exactly popular in the World outside the USA - he fought (better ordered to be fought) a war which could be described as illegeal taking under consideration the news which are currently leaking out of press reports all over Europe. The war wasn´t exactly necessary and people in the Gulf States are far from being happy about the presence of the USA there. Don´t you think that a government owned airline such as Qatar has to think twice which planes they order in the arguably most political business worldwide?

You can turn the Emirates which way you want - Boeing lost it, point. The leased 26 B777-300ER to them - but not a single one is a new order, all of them are already ordered by GECAS and ILFC, either directly as B777-300ERs or -200ERs which will be converted into -300ERs in due course. Airbus was the big winner, practiacally all orders they won are new orders.

Well, I can make up a provokative theorie, too: Boeing is only able to win a deal against Airbus when they have government help (read: spying) on their site. The Saudia deal prooves this (the CIA fished Airbus faxes to Saudia and in turn Boeing an MDD knew what Airbus was offering at what prices and were able to undercut the deals Airbus made)... now - can I say that after mentioning one airline customer that Boeing is always guilty of spying, even though there is no new evidence? I don´t think so... now think what I want to say with this last paragraph... innocent until prooven guilty.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
manni
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:34 am

NDSchu777,

The comment I made is as much valuable as the comment made about Qatar trying to get into CDG or selling prawns to Europe. How come, you're not reacting to these?

As far as the 26 777's are concerned, only four of them are actually new orders for Boeing. Altough it's still 4 aircraft, it's peanuts compared to the 41 Airbusses Emirates ordered. Nevertheless, without Boeing's competition, Airbusses' wouldn't have been as good as they are today. So Airbus, just give Boeing a break from time to time...  Big grin
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
United01
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:42 am

With all these people throwing random political excuses around for each order, its quite funny i guess how people think Qatar ordered airbus because they were pressured into it and did not want to buy American, being a muslim country after the war. Without giving too many of my opinions on Iraq or politics in an aviation forum, would someone please tell me where US central command was? Anybody else here thing Qatar was no so much anti American then? Hey hows about this - maybe the Airbus planes are just better for them then the Boeing ones! No A vs B thing - just an issue with an airline! Hey, isnt US Airways going all airbus? So who bribed them then? Sometimes things on here just get away from the point.
 
N79969
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:24 am

Flying-Tiger,

The NSA did not intercept a bid proposal but an offer to bribe Saudi officials. There is a big difference. I am glad the US goverment blew the whistle on Airbus. Airbus is not entitled to gain business through criminal acts and then complain about getting caught. If bribery is no problem, then why were Jacques Chirac and Helmut Kohl investigated?

Further, the stuff I am posting is not some theory. Rather I am merely repeating what has printed in the Economist and other reputable sources.

Personally I think Qatar may have pulled an Iberia on Boeing. They pretended they were interested in the B777 to squeeze a better deal out of Airbus. Good for them.

As for Airbus, I realize that many of you get 'tired' of accusations. However, I think the US is getting sick of Europe leveraging trade relations on Airbus deals. As soon as the EU stops: conditioning the import of prawns from Thailand, threating Pakistan for buying Boeing, and denying access to CDG to Boeing customers(this is undeniably a French practice), I will stop writing about invidious practices used by Airbus and France.

Scorpio, you are correct, I do go off when people make the illogical leap of if Airbus does it, then so does Boeing followed by some rant about George Bush. It is nonsensical. Since you claim to be familiar with my posts, you may have read the posts I put up regarding Boeing's trouble with bribery in the 1970s in Egypt and Lockheed in Japan.


[Edited 2003-06-17 21:25:57]

[Edited 2003-06-17 21:29:34]
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:24 am

There's no doubt that Airbus has been taking on significant risk "off book" for more recent orders. Iberia is a prime example.

How, you say? With things such as guaranteed fleet values. Iberia in 5-7 years can dispose of its fleet at a known, solid value. Short of a massive boom that pulls in all sorts of planes from the desert, that value is higher than what those airplanes will fetch.

But that particular liability is not carried 'on book' at this time; rather, Airbus can speak to the profits of the deal and only footnote the potential future liability.

Deals like Easyjet remain a serious concern -- saying things like "it was imperative we get into the low-cost market" rather than saying "we are able to sell superior aircraft for less" again speak directly to concerns of that deal as well.

And, of course, in many cases, the Euro. A majority of sales have been made in non-Euro, yet Airbus costs are in Euro. Compared to a few months ago, there's now a nearly 20% hit in that arena alone.

The simple truth is, Airbus can work from a vastly higher risk standpoint, and has been doing so the past couple of years.

Steve
 
eg777er
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:38 am

Airbus v. Boeing: Efficiency

The Airbus partners' factories and manufacturing processes are more modern than Boeing's, says James Womack, president of the Lean Enterprise Institute in Brookline, Mass.

"Boeing is basically a Cold War company," says Womack, who has consulted for Boeing and visited many of its assembly plants. "There wasn't always a focus on how to do things quickly with the least space and least effort. That wasn't the name of the game."

Airbus uses more automation than Boeing partly because European nations impose stiff taxes on employers and require generous severance pay for fired workers. Dasa, for example, uses more robots than people to build fuselage shells at its plant in Nordenham, Germany.

By several measures, Airbus' productivity tops Boeing's.

Since 1994 it has shrunk delivery -- the time between a customer's fixing specifications and receiving the plane -- to nine months from 15 on A320s. Boeing needs 12 months for its comparable 737.

Airbus also uses fewer workers. It employed 161 people per plane delivered in 1998, 24 percent below the 213 workers used in 1993. Boeing required 220 per plane in 1998.

What's more, Airbus has raised its stock turn -- an efficiency gauge that compares the value of a year's sales with the value of parts being used to build planes -- to 2.9 in 1998 from 1.5 in 1993. This suggests it's halved the capital tied up in parts waiting to be assembled. Boeing's stock turn was 2.6 in 1998.


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/airb29.shtml
 
N79969
Topic Author
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:53 am

Eg777er,

Thanks for posting the article. I don't question that Airbus has evolved into a world-class manufacturer. It clearly has without a doubt.

 
aq737
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2000 10:47 am

RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:36 am

According to Airliner World, Boeing is delivering more aircrafts per month than Airbus...Does this equal production inefficiency? To me, it looks like the Boeing was is smart!

AIRBUS
A300 - 1 (UPS)
A319 - 4 (Air France, Air Mauritius, Frontier, Northwest)
A320 - 11 (Air Canada, Air France, British Med., Eurofly, JetBlue, Martinair-2,
----------MyTravel-2, Qatar, Swiss Int'l
A321 - 2 (Monarch, MyTravel)
A330 - 5 (Air France, Emirates, Qantas, Qatar

Total: 23

BOEING
B712 - 1 (Midwest)
B736 - 1 (GECAS)
B73G - 10 (CIT, easyJet-2, ILFC-2, Southwest-2, Transavia-2, WestJet)
B738 - 6 (AirBerlin, Britannia, China Southern, GATX, ILFC-2)
B739 - 1 (Alaska)
B744 - 1 (ILFC)
B74ERF - 1 (Air France)
B752 - 2 (Air 2000-2)
B753 - 2 (Northwest-2)
B762ER - 1 (Unidentified)
B763ER - 3 (American, Ansett, GECAS)
B772ER - 2 (Singapore-2)
B773 - 1 (ILFC)
Total: 32

So, according to that, Boeing delivered 9 more.

Aq737
 
Udo
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:36 am

...Airbus just has found out that with bribery one can get every important order out there. They bribed Emirates, Qatar, Lufthansa, Qantas, SIA, Cathay, United, US Airways, Frontier, SAA, Indian Airlines, yeah just anyone. That's the way it works. Every sold Airbus plane could only be achieved by bribery...
I'm sure many people on this forum can only sleep well after loudly repeating these sentences above. Well, dream on and get happy.


Btw, Qatar Airways is financially quite free in its decisions. Since they get government support in buying new planes all over, they can go for the plane which just fits best in their network. If a more expensive B777 was better suited for them, they would buy it. Qatar or Emirates are two of a very small number of airlines which can afford to buy any plane, at any number, no matter if it costs 50 mio $ more or less.
Probably the A340-500/600 is just a perfect aircraft for their needs?


Regards
Udo

Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4797
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:41 am

According to Airliner World, Boeing is delivering more aircrafts per month than Airbus

No, it delivered more aircraft in that particular month. This does not mean they deliver more in EVERY month.

FACT: Boeing is planning to deliver 280 aircraft this year. Airbus is planning to deliver 300.

So, according to that, Airbus will have delivered 20 more by year-end.
 
brons2
Posts: 2462
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:17 am

You can turn the Emirates which way you want - Boeing lost it, point. The leased 26 B777-300ER to them - but not a single one is a new order, all of them are already ordered by GECAS and ILFC, either directly as B777-300ERs or -200ERs which will be converted into -300ERs in due course. Airbus was the big winner, practiacally all orders they won are new orders.

Clearly, this isn't true about the leasing companies. Reason being, is that ILFC and GECAS like to keep a certain amount of planes available, they will need to order more to keep some delivery positions for future leasing deals.

You should know this, from reading the Orders group. The fact that EK's order dwindled the leasing companies' 777 stocks to almost nil, means they will probably be ordering more.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:19 am

To add to Brons2's post, GECAS said that 4 of the -300ERs for EK will be new orders by GECAS, while the other 10 will come from existing GECAS orders.
 
jaysit
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 7:05 am

"same Airbus that produced the underperforming A343 and the overweight (read: fat) 345/346?"

LOL. What a pile of gibberish.

I'd say that if a major (READ: MAJOR) Arab ally bought Airbus over Boeing, they're not doing it to piss off Uncle Sam. A good deal is a good deal, and a good bargain is a good bargain.

Putting all of this in perspective:

Can El Al buy Airbus? Hell, no.
Can PIA buy Airbus post 9-11? Hell, no
Did Saudia buy Airbus? The Clinton administration did its share for to make that didn't happen.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
dalecary
Posts: 834
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 7:10 am

Let's wait and see with this order. My spies certainly were expecting a significant 777 order and there may be 2 Qatar announcements- one from Airbus with their component of the order and one from a leasing company(GECAS/ILFC) for the Boeing component of the order. Could be like EK, where they order from the leasing companies and not Boeing.
One thing is for sure- both ILFC and GECAS will have to order extra 777s soon.
What is not evident in the EK deal is why did they order directly from Airbus and via the leasing companies for the 777s???

Dale.
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:46 am

For those of you who say that boein has lost to many battles

HOW many 777 Have been sold in total, including all family members?

HOW many A340´s have been sold? including all family members and not the A330

I REST MY CASE

How much time has the A340 been on the market?
How much time hast the 777 been on the market?

Again I rest my case

How is most succesfull?

OBVIUSLY THE 777, becouse in spite of the high price it´s supirior performance and capacity and economics have earned it the number 1 spot in its market
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
Spaceman
Posts: 525
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:33 am

Perhaps when airlines choose A340 over the 777, they are thinking about the seating arrangements on the planes. The A340 holds an advantage of having no middle seats in the economy and business sections. Also some company just feel more comfortable flying quad engine planes over twins.
 
brons2
Posts: 2462
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:41 am

he A340 holds an advantage of having no middle seats in the economy and business sections

The A340 (and all Airbus 8 across tubes) do have middle seats in economy. Perhaps you mean First and Business?
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 10:03 pm

RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:42 am

As a passenger I would like at least three engines over lots of water or bad country.

Now Qatar, please fly to Hong Kong  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
Jean Leloup
Posts: 1953
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 10:46 am

RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:27 am

Everyone, watch your fingers with the ol' A vs. B rhetoric, or this'll soon get deleted/archived.
Thanks!

Jean Leloup
Next flight.... who knows.
 
rongotai
Posts: 350
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 11:59 am

RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:56 am

I don't sell aeroplanes but I do business in the Middle East. In the last few months there has been a significant sea change - even, in fact, especially in countries that the US counts as allies.

Businesses just don't want to buy American or British, even when there is a price advantage. There is nothing political or ideological about their decisions. They just see it as a bad for their customer relationships to be too strongly associated with US or UK products if there is a viable alternative on the market.

I don't think this change made the difference for Emirates or Qatar, but I do detect a sigh of relief that they didn't feel the need to go Boeing.

It's great for those of us who are neither American nor British, though!
 
F4N
Posts: 507
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2000 11:37 pm

RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:19 pm

To all:

Some interesting points being raised here despite the unfortunate tendencies for some to cling to the usual rhetorical positions.

I doubt that the war has much to do with the selections made; note that the 2 carriers involved are from countries that actually supported Bush and his war, so the notion that this influenced Emirates or the upcoming Qatari choices is rubbish. Someone was quite correct IMO that price was key here; Airbus was willing to go where Boeing couldn't / wouldn't. We have seen this before. I think that it was also quite rightly pointed out that Airbus does have the advantage of greater efficiencies and a lower cost structure. In costing your product, that counts for a lot. Let's face it; Airbus had 30 years of getting their lunch handed to them to learn their lessons. These are smart people. They now are now where Boeing would like to be and they are forcing Boeing to make the next quantum leap into manufacturing efficiency. It will be awhile before Boeing catches up with all the commensurate consequences for sales/revenue. Airbus has all the momentum going for them right now, despite all the rhetoric, here or elsewhere.

Nevertheless, there is a downside to this. The Wall Street Journal online had an interesting article about margins in the aviation industry yesterday. I t discussed the willingness that Airbus has to accept slim margins as a consequence of current low-price sales and the ramifications this has for the future. It also mentions that Boeing's unwillingness to do that now will also
have a positive impact for profitability later in the decade when Boeing begins to benefit from the re-structuring it has to do now.

Finally, as Jean Leloup has wisely advised, tone it down, boys. The administrators are wisely deleting threads which get out of hand, some of which were actually very good.

regards,

F4N
 
kaitak
Posts: 8969
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:50 pm

So, when it this long expected QR press conference to take place; I was expecting news by 11.30am.

Any sign of white smoke yet?
 
N79969
Topic Author
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:59 pm

I disagree with the blithe characterization of some remarks as "usual rhetoric." The usual rhetoric, as it is called, is merely describing business-as-usual on the other side of the pond. If business practices change, then so will the 'rhetoric.' If pointing out what has become the obvious is a negative attack, then so be it.

That said I give Airbus credit for securing the deal and Qatar credit for probably gaming Boeing to get Airbus to cut its prices. That is a legit tactic and they are all shrewd business people.

I would think that Boeing's pricing would be getting a boost right now because of the weak dollar. I guess that is not much help.
 
User avatar
Flying Belgian
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 12:45 am

RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:20 pm

Two days ago there was a very interesting "behind the scene" report on the french television France 2 about that QR market...

QR's CEO said his company was 100% independant on its decisions and obviously he was right... But inetresting were the pilots's assesments, they seemed to push to get more A332... because they had a table to eat in front of them and that the A332 auto-pilot was very efficient !!! Big grin Big grin and I'm not joking !!!


FB.
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
dalecary
Posts: 834
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:25 pm

According to ATW Airbus has pinched the 300 seat component of this order with a last minute revised bid. Boeing, having being promised the order,after meeting all of QR's demands, then withdrew their bid. So, a win for Airbus, and no doubt some very nice pricing for QR.

Here is the excerpt from ATWonline:

Airbus is not done and it will score another big win today when Qatar Airways orders 30 aircraft. The order will include A330-200s and A340-500s/-600s. Qatar sources visiting the show told ATWOnline that Boeing had been promised an order but withdrew from the bidding when it met the airline's demands only to be trumped by a late bid revision by Airbus. And finally, Malaysia Airlines is expected to ink this week the deal for six A380s announced in January.

Dale.

 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:31 pm

Yes that's true! In the beginning pilots were a bit reluctant towards the side stick, but aviation got used very quickly.... nowadays you hear nothing but very positive remarks over it.... and it clears room for a stow-away table which is very comfortable indeed!

I think that table is possibly the single most important sales issue for airbus with pilots....

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
airways1
Posts: 536
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RE: Qatar Nixes B777

Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:49 pm

QR, by the way, hasn't always been an all-Airbus operator. They started with the 727 and 747.

airways1