764
Topic Author
Posts: 486
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:26 am

I know that this statement will draw a lot of criticism, but I really believe that at the current point the TSA is doing more to help terrorists in general to achieve their objectives than they do to prevent single attacks. Keep in mind that what terrorists want is to force Americans and others alike to live in fear, give up their freedom and never feel safe anywhere. And the TSA certainly does a good job in taking people's freedom and also confidence.

There was an article in the New York Times today under

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/17/business/17ROAD.html?ex=1056513600&en=d59ddc143f1786d6&ei=5040&partner=MOREOVER

which tells me that I am not the only one who is worried about this issue. I won't even talk about CAPPS II, the screening system that would allow the TSA to access personal information such as credit reports and even medical records of future passengers in violation of privacy rights and to also deny boarding to anyone at any time without ever telling you the reason (could be something as little as a misspelled name or a mistyped birth date in any of your records). But even security procedures at airports alone have significantly reduced passenger rights. It is unacceptable that at so many airports passengers are forced to take off their shoes and walk through metal detectors on socks or barefooted, nicely spreading germs all over the place and catching who knows how many others. Also at most locations seating is not provided for people needing to sit down to take off their shoes.
Baggage screening is another point. Under property rights nobody can open your bags unless there is an imminent danger or you are present to supervise the inspection after you have agreed to it. Yet the TSA simply violates these rights. Passengers aren't even allowed to lock their bags any more or the locks will be destroyed by the TSA. Also in some locations inspections are performed and passengers are not allowed to be present.
Here's another violation of the United States Constitution: The TSA, together with the DHS is planning to not only have US citizenship as a requirement for screeners, but also for everybody employed within the secure area. That includes stores like WHSmith or MCDonald's.
Also, why don't they allow non-passengers beyond security controls any more? Is somebody without a boarding pass more likely to get a gun beyond security than somebody with a boarding pass? Plus, if I were planning to hijack a plane, wouldn't I have a boarding pass anyway??? It couldn't be to reduce waiting at the checkpoints, because often enough there is no line there at all. If there are long lines then a passengers-only rule makes sense and has been in place in several airports before 2001. But if there is no waiting - what's the point?

These are just a few of the things that have very significantly reduced American's freedom at airports. There are several more. I just wish that somebody would stop those people, because while I am not at all afraid of terror attacks, I am "afraid" of the TSA every time I fly. "What new nonsense may they have come up with now?" is what I always think before I fly. And their measures don't make any sense if I tell you what I recently came across in Minneapolis: Outside a store in the green concourse there was a cart with several magazines and on top there was a bunch of plastic-wrapped Readers Digests. On top of those somebody had left a large paper cutter, which was obviously needed to unpack the magazines. But there was nobody guarding the cart and the knife was there for anybody to help themselves. What a nice security this is. And there are sufficient other loopholes, which I don't want to expose here as I do not want to give any terrorists any ideas.

My plea to the TSA and everybody else in the aviation security business is: PLEASE make flying fun again. Give freedom back to people. That would help the airline economy too.
 
flyingbronco05
Posts: 3484
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:43 am

The TSA makes sure my mom and dad come home.

I will NOT fly if there ws no TSA.

EVER.

They make it safer.

FB05
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:45 am

my latest run in with the TSA was due to a portable DVD player in my camera bag. With a 10" screen and folded flat it does look like a laptop.

Them "Do you have a laptop?

Me "No"

Them (voice raised) "This is a laptop, it needs to go back thru the machine"

Me "Ummm, okay, but it isn't a laptop, it's a DVD player"

Them (he's being a dick now) "CAN YOU READ THE SIGN, ALL LAPTOPS NEED TO BE CHECKED!"

Me (also getting pissed) "Yeah sure I can read the stupid sign, it says all portable computers, this isn't a computer its a DVD player"

This went on and on, then a duty officer came over and I got the full search treatment.

I would be bitter to if I had a shit job and had to smell peoples dirty socks all day.

The TSA can kiss my ass.
 
Boeing757/767
Posts: 2179
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:50 am

764, well said. Bravo.

While I'm sure we are all willing to sacrifice a little to ensure everyone's safety, the TSA has taken things too far. Over time, I hope, that happy medium will have been met.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
flyCMH
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:51 am

The TSA makes sure my mom and dad come home.

Your parent's flight crew, the ground agents keeping a watchful eye on the ramp, and air traffic control make sure they come home. The Thousands Standing Around make sure your tweasers are kept in your checked baggage or are confiscated.
 
BeltwayBandit
Posts: 474
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:53 am

The goal of selective screening (and CAPPS II) is to try to allocate risk so that MOST OF US can move through quickly and without undue burden. Our greatest advantage over terrorist types is that we have access to better technology. We should use it whenever possible to find them, and to let the rest of us live unmolested.

TSA will inevitably screw some things up. That's OK.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:55 am

I second what FlyCMH says down to the last word. The Pilots, Maintenance Personnel, Ground Crew, Marshallers, and the ATC make sure your parents arrive safely. Not those morons dressed in a white shirt with a yellow badge embroidered on it.
Puhdiddle
 
bigphilnyc
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:57 am

I think this has got to be the biggest assumption since 9/11:

"Keep in mind that what terrorists want is to force Americans and others alike to live in fear, give up their freedom and never feel safe anywhere"

How would you know that they just don't want to kill us?

I hate when people say that.

And the existence of the TSA does not contribute to our fear, lack of freedom or safety.
Phil Derner Jr.
 
srbmod
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:59 am

You know what George Orwell would call the Department of Homeland Security (which includes the TSA)? Big Brother.
 
swaluvfa
Posts: 256
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:10 am

I absolutely agree with you all. I mean safety and security is one thing and I respect that, but the TSA have this "new found" power that they take to an ALL new level. Its ridiculous. Its even hard for us crew members to get through security now-a-days. I agree that there needs to be strict security these days, but the TSA makes NO SENSE sometimes.

I mean I will be selected for that random screening sometimes where I automatically get wanded down, so there is no need for me to take things out of my pockets, take my belt off, and take my shoes off to go through security because I am getting the screening NO MATTER WHAT. But the dumb TSA still insists on me taking my change out, and taking my belt and shoes off. THEN I will go through the metal detector and NOT set it off, and get sent over to the "wand down" section. No sense. I just go with the flow and let them have their little power trips.  Smile
 
deltairlines
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:39 am

Mike Boyd (often quoted in the Wall Street Journal, etc.) always has something interesting to say on the TSA (http://www.aviationplanning.com). I think that the TSA is pretty lame. If the government was more serious about aviation safety, they would have done more than make the private screeners part of the government and create a new acronym (they are, after all, the ones that were doing the screenings prior to 9/11). They are a major joke, and they really need to reform. As much as I love the Bush Administration, this is the one part that really irks me.

Jeff
 
jwenting
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:48 am

And more kiddos here complaining because there's at last someone who checks to see if they have business in a secure area...

If Americans hadn't been so completely naive about security and let any person with a bomb and gun walk onto an aircraft you wouldn't need the TSA.

If they're overreacting sometimes it's precisely because of the abuse people throw at them for confiscating pocket knives.

Grow up and let these people do their jobs, don't try to make it impossible for them because the CAN and WILL get back to you and mess you around (or someone else) next time!
It's that easy, if you help them by not being a complete asshole when you're asked to have your bag X-rayed and not try to get into the secure area without a ticket they'll soon settle down into the role that security people have played in the rest of the civilised world for decades which is to keep that area secure.

And as for ramp personel looking after ramp security, you got to be laughing.
Those people are way too busy to go around checking whether every person walking around there has the required clearance, and if they had the time they'd not show it...
I wish I were flying
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:05 am

For any of you who have read my TSA rants in the past, this will be like a broken record to you. I have made a parody of myself when I say this...

Why do they 80 year old non Muslim ladies take off their shoes?

Why don't Muslim men have to be searched under their turbans, or the women under their veils?

I have seen it too much...

Good points of TSA

1. You have to be a US Citizen to work for them
2. They actually are getting paid good money I think $14/hr to start which means if they had a good work ethic they would work for that money... oh wait... they dont

Bad Points:

1. Too many workers- that gives the impression that there are thousands standing around. They get bored, so they gotta make it look like they are doing something so they make grandma take her shoes off
2. Political correctness- "Oh no, we can't single out Middle Eastern Men, we would be discriminating!!!" even though all recent terrorist acts in the air have been of that demographic. Mohammad Abdullah sets of the metal detector, they just wand him quick and let him walk because if you do anymore he says "Allah curse you". 85 year old Aunt Bea has to take off her shoes because her prostetic hip set off the metal detector. She can barely walk let alone hijack a plane. Little Johnny coming back from Disney World with his family has to take off his Mickey Mouse Ears so they can check for hidden weapons while they don't search under Sultanna Ali's veil. A woman terrorist? Well we have seen women terrorists in Israel, you can hide a lot under that veil, but you know the Arabs would go crying to ACLU if they had to be searched under that veil. Yes I know their religion prohibits them from being seen by men under the veil- but that is what seperate rooms and female TSA workers are for. Besides- this country is not based on Islamic Law and this is a national security threat so I think that overides a minority religion right now.

Thus ends my almost daily rant
 
planenutz
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:11 am

Another thing that really bugs me is how many within the TSA tout the need to develop a system similar to the Isreali one when it comes to security.

What about other models?

Lima Jorge Chavez: Not one hijacking during the Shining Path insurrection of the 80's and 90's, though there were attempts. Without the massive budget and security apparautus that the TSA and US Govt. have, they were able to operate a secure airport using common sense security procedures.

The same can be said for Bogata's El Dorado Airport, Belfast CIty and International Airports, and airports in the Middle East wuch as Amman, Tunis, and Casablanca. All of these airports were, or could have been, in the line of fire due to regional or local conflicts, but managed to stay safe.

I think that sometime in the near future the TSA will come under serious scrutiny. It already has to some extent and the result has been 6,000 screeners losing their jobs because the money simply wouldnt supprt that kind of payroll (not to mention the several hundred that were let go because it was found out that they were either non US citizens, or had criminal records).
Not all who wander are lost....
 
petazulu
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:16 am

Some fo you guys sound like kids who are pissed off they can't go watch airplanes from near the gates anymore.

Others of you sound like ailine employees who are sick of getting hassled are envious of the cushy jobs these new airport employees seem to have. It seems that tougher security has gotten on your nerves, but get used to it. It's part of your lives now.

If you are a regular flier, then you know how not to get hassled by security. Take your laptop out, take off you shoes, empty you pockets. I do it in my sleep before I even get to the x-ray machine. No big deal. It takes about 30 seconds (MAX) longer than it may have taken before 9/11 and I am more confident that a terrorist might be caught. Of course there are still loopholes, but thata a different conversation.

If you are a clueless dumbass or are someone trying to test the limits, then you should just learn you lesson and follow instructions for the first few times.

I remember the days of 2-day old 'security' agents who spoke no english and would be challenged to even work at a McDonalds- now that was some scary stuff and we paid for it.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:20 am

**Another thing that really bugs me is how many within the TSA tout the need to develop a system similar to the Isreali one when it comes to security**

Yes and no- when it comes to its own citizens yes, but remember Israel is not worried about lawsuits when it comes to searching Palestineans and other Islamic nationals- the US does.
 
Guest

RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:32 am

I've only really had one problem with at TSA checkpoint, and that was at Columbus. They spent 20 minutes swabbing everything in my carry-on, including running it up and down pages inside of a book, my newspaper, every pen and pencil, etc. Then they made me turn on my laptop and open at least one program in it, as well as the same on my Palm Pilot. I still made it to my gate just as boarding began, but I did not quite understand the need for this full treatment, especially when I didn't set off the magnometer. I was just a victim of them not having anybody to search when I came along.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:38 am

TSA: Taking Scissors Away

It seems they can get that right, and overall not much else. We still have lots of problems with them.
 
srbmod
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:59 am

Security wait times have gotten worse since the new security directives (post 9/11, prior to TSA and once TSA started screenings). It is not uncommon at ATL to waiting 90 minutes in the security line on a Monday morning. It used to be 15-20 minutes tops on busy travel days. And one thing that gets me is that if the TSA was so gung-ho on airport security, why don't they man the access gates that provide access to roadways within the airports? The same security companies that provided the old screenings in the terminals are still manning guard shacks on the NLVRs that run through the airports. I go through this everyday I work, they don't even check my load, they just look at my vehicle pass, swipe my SIDA badge, and let me on my merry way. This sort of lax security could be how the next terror attack is launched, from within the airport itself. The only vehicles that I see get searched at the main access gates are vehicles that are going to be escorted in. Somebody with hostile intentions could manage to get a job that allows them access to roadways and ramp areas on airport properties in a truck that could be used as a vehicle bomb, or as a transport of terrorists (since these rent-a-cops aren't checking the loads inside the trucks of normal delivery vehicles) on the tarmac at an airport. Instead of just harassing passengers, the TSA needs to also concentrate on people who have daily access to the SIDA in vehicles that could be potentially used in a terror attack on an airport.
 
Dazed767
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 7:07 am

I had a run-in with a TSA agent back in January in FLL. Told me to leave my wallet in my pocket (gee wonder if it's gonna go off), sure enough it did. He serached my wallet....say my Platnium Visa and this is where it got fun...

Them: "How'd you get a Platnium Card, I can't even get one!"
Me: "Not sure, they sent it to me"
Them: "What are you rich or something, how old are you?"
Me: "Far from it...I'm 21"
Them: Calls his buddy over "Hey XXX, this kids got a platnium card, I can't even get one" "Are you a student?"
Me: Used to be.
Them: "making a remark that CC companies try to get kids etc etc". And they let me on my way.

IT WAS VERY UNPROFESSIONAL. If I was not sleep deprived, I would have taken both their names and reported them. But I was so tired, I just wanted to get out of there.
 
gigneil
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:00 am

One place that I continue to enjoy high-quality security service even post-9/11 is DCA.

It was easily the most pleasant airport to use before 9/11 and the TSA hasn't changed that. They are extremely polite and efficient, and have everything setup to keep the line moving.

No small part in that, of course, is due to the average traveler there heading to their preferred Shuttle. The people in line at DCA are already almost completely naked, clothes and shoes in hand, laptop out, everything done by the time they get to the front of the line.

I also don't mind the Marines walking around with large automatic weapons out on the tarmac.

N
 
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United_fan
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:16 am

My run in with them was last October in SEA . My bag was selected for scanning and I had to wait next to the Million Dollar scanner when some guy came out and yelled 'Scott!!,anyone named Scott here!!?? ' I said that's me. 'Please follow me!' So I did. 'Please open your bag , and stand on the stripe on the floor.' He donned the rubber prostate-exam gloves and searched away..... he produced my radio scanner.'What's this?' Looking at it like he'd never seen one before' That's a scanner' 'Oh' He did some more digging and produced my can of glass cleaner I always bring to clean my glasses. 'This is not allowed! I asked why not,aerosol deodorant is allowed? It's not allowed,and it will be confiscated.. Fill out this form. It was a freakin Hazardous Material form. I think the a$$hole took it home for his own use.
When I flew in February in ROC I had to stand while my bag was searched,but when I left MIA I didn't .
It's better than retirees and non-English speakers doing it...........
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
N737MC
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:17 am

All i have to say is TSA= "Thousands Standing Around" and a big "Joke" literally. I know that the folks that work at the airport besides me can agree on this one. I deal with those damn people every day, a freaking joke is all I can say.

Aaron
 
planenutz
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:23 am

True. Many TSA personnel seem not to have too much to do. At MIA tey spend most of the time sitting in chairs and talking on their cell phones. At LAX Bradley Terminal, they stand around in groups, in front of the check in counters, around security equipment, at airlines that dont even have flights operating that day.
Seems wasteful.
Not all who wander are lost....
 
Continental
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:39 am

Royal, that last sentance summed it all up. They are crap! We can't tell how well they perform!! Why?? Well, Globe did superb jobs on the tests like fake weapons to test employees at Globe. They did it to TSA, and they got like a 30-40% on it! After that, they decided to do away with them for no apparent reason! It was a joke to fire all those veterans who were there for 20 years, and hire a bunch of hoo-hahs who just finished their 2nd year with Wal-Mart.

co
 
Yikes!
Posts: 284
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:51 am

For anyone who's flown in Europe, the TSA is a joke.

It's there to placate the likes of Flyingbronco05 et al. Make like you're doing something to prevent another 911 when in fact you're just waving your hands at the terrorists telling them what NOT to bring on board.

Sorry Yanks, it's as simple as that.

If you don't isolate the flight deck, you will not prevent a recurrence of 911.

Giving pilots guns is as insane as confisgating tweezers from...whoever.
 
flyCMH
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:10 am

Jwenting said:
And as for ramp personel looking after ramp security, you got to be laughing. Those people are way too busy to go around checking whether every person walking around there has the required clearance, and if they had the time they'd not show it...

Sounds like you've never worked an airport ramp before. You get to know how things work and who and what are supposed to be on the premise at all times.

Petazulu wrote:
Others of you sound like ailine employees who are sick of getting hassled are envious of the cushy jobs these new airport employees seem to have. It seems that tougher security has gotten on your nerves, but get used to it. It's part of your lives now.

Quite the contrary actually. I felt sorry for these poor people that had to sit on a chair and watch what passed through an x-ray machine for 8 hours while I got to be outside and constantly moving around. Being able to travel from city to city in a short amount of time, I was able to witness the vast inconsistancies between say, the TSA agents in Orlando and the TSA agents in Chicago. Granted they are still experiencing some growing pains, but things should be completely standardized as soon as possible.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:44 am

The ones at DTW were no better. There was one girl who would eat in front of the passengers at the International transfers checkpoint downstairs in the Midfield. She didn't need to eat either because she had to turn sideways to go through the metal detector. One time on her break she got stuck in one of the seats that were outside the TWOV room.

A couple days after the TSA came to DTW, one of their supervisors started going on a powertrip there. I had a buddy who worked for Guardian Security (which has nothing to do with TSA) and he guarded a door down the hall next to the security checkpoint that led to a hall that took people to the customs area. This TSA lady started telling him what to do. Guardian allowed guards to have soda and snacks and she was telling him to get rid of it, needless to say he paid her no mind.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:54 am

Mimi: "I'll take 'Useless Governmental Agencies' for $500, Alex."

Alex: 'This Governmental agency was formed post 9/11 to aid in the increased safety of the nation's airports, but ran afoul in 2003 when it couldn't accurately determine staffing levels...going so far as to add agents at airports with NO service while drastically cutting the number of agents at fast-growing ones."

Mimi: "What is the TSA?"

Alex: "Correct! That brings you to the lead as we enter Final Jeopardy!"
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:22 am

I'm all in favor of any institution that makes cry babies cry. It seems the TSA is good at that and this forum is proof. More power to them. If I ran the system, I'd make the Gestapo look like the ACLU. Then you'd really have something to whine about. Be grateful for the status quo.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
N766UA
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:36 am

Another reason the TSA is worthless: They are unarmed.

Now, given their appearant incompetance, this could be a good thing. But what if some guy DOES have a knife, a pistol, or a machine gun? What are they going to do?
This Website Censors Me
 
Yikes!
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:16 am

"Another reason the TSA is worthless: They are unarmed."

That's about the dumbest statement I've ever seen on this forum.

The TSA exercises their "talents" behind closed doors. I can see it now: "Do you feel luck Suitcase? Well, do ya??"

Boom Boom.

What a crock.
 
N766UA
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:36 am

Uhh.. what the hell are you talking about?
This Website Censors Me
 
Guest

RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:49 am

The TSA Armed?? Do we really want that? Please. I'd rather have them screening luggage than shooting people. At ROC, we have a sheriff at the check point at all times so if anyone needs to be mowed down (doubtful) then it's taken care of.

I've heard a lot about the TSA and how there either useless or pointless. That's fine, but until someone comes up with something better, get used to it.
I'm not saying the TSA is a be all, end all to the problem of airport security, god knows I've had my problems with them, but lets not lose track of reality here. It's a government run establishment. It's gonna have flaws.

I propose a question to all........

What would be a better alternative to the TSA?

I would enjoy the responses, as would others.
(Make this a new topic, see where it goes)

 
L-188
Posts: 29874
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:54 am

Giving a TSA agent a gun?

Oh boy, that is a scary thought.

ON several different levels.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
RNOcommctr
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 12:46 pm

TSA is overly focused on passenger screening. That's because it's the portion of airport security that is observed by the public. But as another poster implied, the next terrorist attack will take advantage of other airport vulnerabilities, such as catering/delivery trucks, badged employees, and breaches in airport perimeter fencing... none of which TSA seems to be terribly concerned about.
Active loading only, ma'am, keep it moving!
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:08 pm

**Now, given their appearant incompetance, this could be a good thing. But what if some guy DOES have a knife, a pistol, or a machine gun? What are they going to do? **

What would they do if they had weapons? They'd probably still point the barrel at themselves
 
cloudy
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RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:09 pm

But as another poster implied, the next terrorist attack will take advantage of other airport vulnerabilities, such as catering/delivery trucks, badged employees, and breaches in airport perimeter fencing... none of which TSA seems to be terribly concerned about.
----

Amen. And I'd agree with just about all of Michael Boyd's comments regarding the TSA as well.

But there is one thing that can be said in their defense. Many have complained about the inconsistency of the TSA, and how one is treated differently at different airports. Also, many different levels of search, etc. are done.

But the way to deter terrorists is not through consistancy and predictabilitiy. Each person can get a totaly different experience going through security - beause one of the ways to make it hard for bad guys to find weaknesses in the system is to make the system a bit unpredictable. If you want to hijack a plane, you want to be reasonably sure that the place you are carrying your weapon is not going to be searched. Random searches, different kinds of searches, etc. make it hard to have that certainty. This can help deter even suicide bombers, because no suicide bomber considers it glorious to be rotting in jail (on suicide watch, no doubt.). He wants to complete his mission.

Good customer service, on the other hand, requires a great deal of consistancy and predictability. That is the major reason why chain stores tend to do better then independent stores. When you see the Starbucks or Walmart sign, you know exactly what to expect no matter where you are.

IN SHORT.... The TSA sucks. Even the previous system was better. But consider the dillema they have. Good customer service requires predictability and consistancy. Good security requires unpredictablitiy and a degree of inconsistancy. For this reason, it is hard for a security organization to be good at BOTH customer service and security. It is probably doable, but it is a tough job. A job way to tough for the same Federal government that gave us the post office, the ATC system, and the Census Bureau.
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:19 pm

If you spend any time at the general aviation side of an airport, you'll realize that the TSA is simply smoke-and-mirrors for the travelling public.

Point in case: At my home airport of TRI, you can punch in a three-digit code to an access gate completely unchallenged and, within 30 seconds, you can be sitting in a DC-8 cockpit...completely unnoticed.

THIS will be exploited next time it happens.

[Edited 2003-06-18 07:22:29]
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
acidradio
Crew
Posts: 1595
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:19 pm

RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:47 pm

Once again, I hear nobody ever trying to attack some of the problems that make people want to hijack airplanes in the first place. Security issues in aviation are symptoms. Nobody is putting all that much effort in fixing the underlying problems.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:13 pm

At YIP you can practically walk right out on the Tarmac where the Kalitta 747s park without anyone questioning you.
 
jetstar
Posts: 1366
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:05 pm

The person who originated this thread and argued with the TSA because he was carrying a DVD player and not a laptop and therefore did not have to send it through the x-ray machine was wrong. Just because the sign said laptops doesn’t mean he can carry another electronic device on board without being x-rayed. He deserved what the TSA did to him. There could have been a bomb, gun, knife or some other prohibited item in his DVD player. Just remember what brought down Pan Am 103, it was a small bomb concealed in a radio.

I have been through TSA screening dozens of times since the TSA took over airport security and have had absolutely no problems. Only once has my carry-on been opened for a cursory check and I have never been wanded. Why, because I follow the rules.

First, I remove all metal from my pockets, including pens, eyeglasses, keys, coins, watch and I even take off my belt. I only wear sneakers because they have no metal supports in them. Most people don’t realize that the metal detector is not a yes or no machine, but it registers by a meter that the TSA agent looks at the amount of metal on a person. If this level is high enough, they will pull the person aside and use the metal wand detector even if the machine does not beep. I have never been wanded because my metal level is at or near zero.

Also every carry-on item must be x-rayed, including cell phones and all electronic devices. I have had my laptop, cameras and electronic devices scanned numerous times with no damage.

The TSA is here to stay, while they have their problems they are far superior to the incompetent private screeners that the airlines hired. I had numerous problems in the past with these untrained idiots who thought they were god but none with the TSA.

Just follow the rules and don’t argue with them, just do as they say and you will pass through security with no problems. Just remember they are in charge and they can make your life miserable.

 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:45 pm

Are there any educational requirements for TSA? Because at DTW it looks like some of these guys were dragged out of the gutter of Cass Corridor in Detroit or some of the nearby Trailor parks to DTW.
 
764
Topic Author
Posts: 486
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:03 am

JETSTAR,

the issue here was not whether or not to have the item x-rayed. The issue was instead whether the item had to be separately xrayed in a separate tray. I really don't think in helps security if each and every passenger has to unpack all electronic devices and put each one in their own tray. But if you dare to pack anything else into the same bin with your notebook, you will be suspect to additional searching as you are then considered suspicious. But even if you support the idea of having each device screened individually, couldn't they say something like "Ok, maybe it is not a laptop, but we would still like to x-ray it separately, please."? Do they always have to show off their holier than thou attitude the way they frequently do?
Don't get me wrong - I think that screening is good and necessary. But unfriendliness is NOT.
But of course the screening process is only one thing I do not like about the TSA. I could live with them if they would focus more on real security than on coming up with a steady flow of ridiculous and completely useless new procedures and policies which only make flying a less enjoyable experience.

To those who said that there are ways to quickly pass through the security checkpoints: Sure there are and I use all of them. But it is just annoying as heck. Now that they use the new screening machines on checked luggage you have to pack all film and cameras into your carry on as they might be damages otherwise. And at some checkpoints you now have to unpack your even your camera and have it screened separately.
 
hammer
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 9:02 am

RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Thu Jun 19, 2003 6:39 am

The TSA created ALOT of jobs for people that didn't have one because of this great economy....let the TSA keep doing there jobs...
 
Continental
Posts: 5222
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 3:46 am

RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Thu Jun 19, 2003 6:58 am

Hammer: So you think eh? Didn't you know they hired too many at MSP, and they had to fire lots!? They got people's hopes up, then kicked em' in the ass. They are a bunch of jerks.

co
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Thu Jun 19, 2003 8:24 am

Acidradio,

I'm afraid that your "World Peace" dream just isn't gonna fly. Like it or not, no matter how perfect the world is made, there will always be some nut from left wing who's gonna want to do something extreme--even if for NO motivation whatsoever.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
Yikes!
Posts: 284
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 4:51 pm

RE: Yeah, But Jetstar...

Thu Jun 19, 2003 9:36 am

They cannot/will not prevent a recurrence of what happened!

That's what this thread has turned to - a criticism of the big picture. For the amount of power being exercised by this agency, it is woefully useless against the rhetoric behind its establishment.
 
764
Topic Author
Posts: 486
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Thu Jun 19, 2003 9:43 pm

My thoughts exactly. They can't make flying more secure anyway, so why should they have any right to impose rules and policies that negatively affect every traveler, frequent or not? I fly more than 100,000 miles a year and even though some things have gotten a little better again (e.g. you do not need your ID at the gate at ORD any more), the overall situation still leaves a lot to be desired.

And about the requirement that people need a boarding pass to enter the concourses: I got an email from one of you suggesting that they might be doing this to save cost. Well, how about this: Each non-passenger wishing to pass through security has to pay the same security fees that are already included in passengers' ticket prices or even a little more than that. I would think that a lot of people would be willing to pay anywhere between two and five dollars to accompany their loved ones through to the gate just like they used to. That would benefit them (convenience), the TSA (hey, there's money to make here) and the concessions in the concourse (more people to sell food and other stuff to). I think that would be a procedure that everybody could agree to. Factually this kind of thing already exists: Everybody can buy a heavily discounted ticket for a discount carrier, get a boarding pass, enter through security and then throw away their boarding pass. It is quite a common strategy among many of my friends whom I know from my days as a "spotter". So why not make it cheaper for them and at the same time get more money?
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: Someone Has To Stop The TSA

Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:04 pm

**The TSA created ALOT of jobs for people that didn't have one because of this great economy....let the TSA keep doing there jobs...**

Not necessarily, look at all of the security people they had to lay off from the private companies too- true some of them went to TSA, but a lot of them are now unemployed too.