flyboy80
Posts: 1816
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:02 pm

Hey, I've heard a lot of speculation about what NWA will do with their DC-9s (replacements...etc) They seem quite pleased with them for the time being. I know NWA would like to keep them, But the DC-9s as we all know can cost a lot to operate, even if they are completely paid for. And in these times (more and more less) we are having to see airlines become just as competitive as ever. I've heard some people say, Oh NWA will get the A318 or the 717, I personally don't think the A318 would work for them, and the 717 may not follow a market stradegy. I also think NWA will get more A319s and have their commuter carriers (messaba...etc) recieve more regional jets, most likely CRJs. But I've also heard about airlines investing money into programes to prevent mass changes with in that airline. Possibly, could we see NWA try to modernize the DC9s, and recieve another 15+years out of them? I know this is unlikely, and costs could be nearly as expensive as getting new aircraft, or would it be less? This could be a beneficial plan for NWA. I know re-engineing (how in the heck you'd do that I don't know) and modifying the DC-9s wouldn't have to much positive public affair with many people, as the flying public likes flying on the "newest and safest" aircraft, but then again, if you asked most people on a plane what color it is they wouldn't be able to tell you, unless its one of us Airliners.net nerds! lol. But Im interested in what you guys think, THis post isn't that same old NWA DC-9 replacement post (Not another one of those!!! lol), but what changes within the DC-9 division do you guys anticipate at NWA, and what are their fates, all 100+ of them (correct me If I'm wrong)
Bri
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:10 pm

Northwest is going to keep most (if not all) of their DC-9s for as far as can be seen into the future. I highly doubt anyone on this forum knows any differently...
 
Guest

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:43 pm

NW’s highest priority is to replace its widebody fleet. By year’s end, all but two of its B742 (flying SEA-NRT) will be parked; it’s likely those two B742 will be join the others in permanent retirement (from passenger service) sometime next year. The DC-10 fleet will likely be phased out by late 2005.

For the interim, the B744, A330 and DC-10 (until retirement) fleets will be utilized more (currently, NW’s B742 fleet is only lightly used). A320 will take over more flights within Asia, and B753 will likely take over West Coast – Hawaii flying. In the long term, NW will place a modest (re: about 20 planes) order for either the A345/A346 or B772/B773. Don’t expect a large order, and don’t expect any additions (other than perhaps two planes) to the B744 fleet.

Once the widebody fleet is overhauled, NW will consider its options for DC-9 replacement. At this point, the company has almost completely leveraged itself out, so a large order is probably unlikely.

I think most airliners.net users will be mightily disappointed… it’s likely the DC-9 will be replaced with A319 and CRJ and a large B717/A318/EMB19X order will never happen… sorry!
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2614
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:46 pm

Excuse me, but...... What exactly is replacing NW's 20+ 747-200's?

Jeremy
 
Guest

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:58 pm

Excuse me, but...... What exactly is replacing NW's 20+ 747-200's?

NW has 18 passenger B742.

ATLANTIC
- the B742 flying DTW-AMS will become A333
- the 2xB742 flying MSP-AMS will become DC-10 (and later A333)

PACIFIC
- the B742 flying SEA-NRT will remain for now - it will become a B744 eventually
- SFO-NRT will remain a DC-10 (it'll eventually become A332)
- LAX-NRT will be upgraded to a B744
- KIX-HNL will become DC-10
- NRT-HNL will become either 2xDC-10 or 1xB744 + 1xDC10
- MSP-HNL will stay DC-10 year-round

WITHIN ASIA
A total of eight A320 (up from three) will be based at NRT. Don't forget that NRT-KHH has been permanently cancelled. The A320 (only three previously served NRT), B744 and DC-10 (/A332 eventually) will fly flights within Asia.

- - -

Don't forget that NW will have added about a half-dozen A333 by early next year... the B742 fleet is only lightly utilized, so increased usage of the DC-10, B744 and A330 will enable NW to rid of the B742.
 
jmc1975
Posts: 2893
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Mon Jun 23, 2003 3:10 pm

Ahhhh...yes. The weekly NWA DC9 topic.  Smile
.......
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s E

Mon Jun 23, 2003 4:07 pm

An order for twentysomething 777 or A345/6 is not to be taken lightly, however "modest" it might seem (modest in comparison to Emirates recent order, maybe).
 
na
Posts: 9160
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s E

Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:15 pm

If NW plans to retire its 742s soon then its a new plan as the last thing publicised was that they want to keep them until the end of this decade and retire only one by one if needed because of individual cost issues.
And if this rumour should be true I wouldn´t wonder if the DC-9s are bound for scrapping soon against all statements. They´re older than most 742s!
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:59 pm

Not only do we have the weekly DC-9 replacement topic but also the weekly 742 replacement topic.

NW will keep its DC-9s as long as it can until the Stage IV noise restrictions come out.

If Northwest intended on replacing them earlier then they wouldn't have redid the interiors and made them Stage III compliant when other airlines were dumping their DC-9s.

If I am correct in assuming this- The DC-9 engine cannot be modified anymore for Stage 4.

Also if I am correct- there is no set date for Stage 4.
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:41 pm

NWA's future DC-9 plans include continuing to add the new interiors and flying them for many more years. They do not want to start retiring them in mass until 2010.

*I got this info from an NWA DC-9 pilot that I flew with on an NWA DC-9-30 MSP-EWR about two weeks ago.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Tue Jun 24, 2003 2:58 am

A joke going around NW is that the A320 pilots will be riding a DC-9 back from taking their Airbus to the graveyard.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
BeltwayBandit
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:25 am

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Tue Jun 24, 2003 3:07 am

Isn't there a rule that a topic name has to reasonably reflect the content? I seen nothing in the original post to back up the topic name. "Forced to Retire DC9s Early"??? I was expecting a breaking story about a big airworthiness directive or ageing aircraft directive. Nothing.
 
AIR757200
Posts: 1466
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 8:30 am

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Tue Jun 24, 2003 3:10 am


With a topic saying "be forced", I was expecting a news article or something, not an opinion. Strong choice for a topic/post that is just an opinion.
 
timf
Posts: 430
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:36 am

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Tue Jun 24, 2003 3:11 am

I agree that the topic is misleading. Nothing in the first post says anything about what might force Northwest to retire their DC9s early. It's just the same speculation that has been posted many times before here. The poster goes on to say it's not the same old DC9 replacement thread, but it seems to me that he's just restating the same question in a different way.
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Tue Jun 24, 2003 3:21 am

I know re-engineing (how in the heck you'd do that I don't know)

Easy, You remove the JT8D-9A, 11A, and 17A from the DC9s. Remove the pylon, put some stronger pylon, run some new wire to the cockpit. and mount a BR710 or BR715 on it.
Puhdiddle
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s E

Tue Jun 24, 2003 3:44 am

Heh... and then you replace all the avionics and add the necessary stuff for operating a FADEC engine.

N
 
Guest

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Tue Jun 24, 2003 4:38 am

If NW plans to retire its 742s soon then its a new plan as the last thing publicised was that they want to keep them until the end of this decade and retire only one by one if needed because of individual cost issues.
And if this rumour should be true I wouldn´t wonder if the DC-9s are bound for scrapping soon against all statements. They´re older than most 742s!


It's not a rumor. The B742 is uneconomical and unreliable. Thus, it will be phased out much sooner than anticipated. The DC-9 is partially economical and reliable. Thus, it will stay in the fleet.

Beginning mid-2004, the DC-10 will be converted into a high-density configuration and fly MSP-HNL, 2xSEA-HNL, LAX-HNL, 2xHNL-NRT, HNL-KIX, SPN-NRT and GUM-NRT. The latter two routes may operate as an A320 seasonally. By late 2004, SFO-NRT will become an A332. SEA-NRT and LAX-NRT will operate as B744. Other flights within Asia will operate as B744, A332 or A320. The B742 will have been retired by mid-2004.
 
acidradio
Crew
Posts: 1595
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:19 pm

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Tue Jun 24, 2003 4:42 am

And you create a whole new kind of aircraft that you have to retrain EVERYBODY on! Then the cost savings are lost. Oh and in the process you have to invent something. I think that NW would rather fly planes, not invent new (reinvent old?) ones.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
Guest

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Tue Jun 24, 2003 4:54 am

NWA's future DC-9 plans include continuing to add the new interiors and flying them for many more years. They do not want to start retiring them in mass until 2010.

All of NW's DC-9 have the B717-like interiors. There are no plans to add to the fleet - in fact, it's just the opposite... a handful (re: half-dozen) of DC-9 will be retired each year beginning in 2004...
 
brons2
Posts: 2462
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s E

Tue Jun 24, 2003 5:06 am

What kind of engines do NW's 742 fleet have? JT9D?
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
acidradio
Crew
Posts: 1595
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:19 pm

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Tue Jun 24, 2003 5:43 am

Yes, NW 742s have JT9D engines
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Tue Jun 24, 2003 6:52 am

All of NW's DC-9 have the B717-like interiors. There are no plans to add to the fleet - in fact, it's just the opposite... a handful (re: half-dozen) of DC-9 will be retired each year beginning in 2004...

I didn't mean that NWA will add more DC-9s to the fleet. I meant they will continue to "redo" the existing DC-9s interiors. If that info is wrong, then so be it. My info came from a pilot and sometimes pilots can get bad info too.

Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
BeltwayBandit
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:25 am

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Tue Jun 24, 2003 6:56 am

Easy, You remove the JT8D-9A, 11A, and 17A from the DC9s. Remove the pylon, put some stronger pylon, run some new wire to the cockpit. and mount a BR710 or BR715 on it.

As noted, this is much easier said than done.

I would have thought that you could fit JT8D-217s to DC9s since they are evolutions of the JT8D. When the stage 3 noise requirements kicked in, I thought that this would be the logical conversion. That is not what happened. I imagine that, at that time (1999) a -217 engine would cost you $2-3 million; while a hushkit cost less than half that for the full aircraft.
 
BillElliott9
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:10 am

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Tue Jun 24, 2003 10:50 am

Has anyone heard anything about converting some of the pax 742's into freighters? I'm not trying to start a rumor; just ask a question!
You can fight without ever winning but never really win without a fight.
 
Guest

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Tue Jun 24, 2003 11:53 am

I didn't mean that NWA will add more DC-9s to the fleet. I meant they will continue to "redo" the existing DC-9s interiors. If that info is wrong, then so be it. My info came from a pilot and sometimes pilots can get bad info too.

I'm not doubting somebody told that to you -- but I'd be weary about what a pilot or flight crew member told me. We’ve seen examples of this on airliners.net… while airline employees will instantly earn our respect, the information they give us is often wrong.

Truthfully, I’m not sure what the pilot meant… every DC-9 has a B717-like interior. If he meant refurbish, then let me remind you that the majority of NW’s B752 fleet is 20 years old, and the interiors have only been refurbished twice since delivery… since the DC-9 received the new interiors just several years ago, I doubt they’ll receive a total refurbishment before retirement. But stranger things have happened  Smile.

Has anyone heard anything about converting some of the pax 742's into freighters?

Yes, some of the B742 will be converted into freighters. It's to early to tell exactly which aircraft, though... I think it's a safe bet that the ones with -JT9D-7R4G2 engines will be retained...
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8005
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Wed Jun 25, 2003 2:25 am

I think NW's decision in regards to eventually replacing the DC-9 comes down to this: will the pilot's union inside NW allow more RJ flights? If yes, that will mean NW will buy more A319's and shift many mainline routes now flown by the DC-9 to CRJ700's flown by Mesaba (Northwest AirLink). If no, then this opens the door for NW to buy either the 717-200 (if Boeing can keep the line going) or Embraer 190 to down the road.
 
zrb2
Posts: 847
Joined: Sat May 20, 2000 10:07 am

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Wed Jun 25, 2003 3:04 am

While purely unscientific, I recently took a look at Air incidents at one of my favorite airports. A high percentage of them (over a 5 year period) happened to be on DC-9's, especially Northwest. Everything from gear problems, to engine oil warnings to in-flight engine shutdowns. I admit that every airplane has it's share of incidents but the older DC-9's are not my favorite to fly on anymore. Just one man's opinion.
 
Guest

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Wed Jun 25, 2003 4:39 am

I think NW's decision in regards to eventually replacing the DC-9 comes down to this: will the pilot's union inside NW allow more RJ flights?

NW can purchase as many CRJ440 as they'd like.


While purely unscientific, I recently took a look at Air incidents at one of my favorite airports. A high percentage of them (over a 5 year period) happened to be on DC-9's, especially Northwest.

NW's DC-9 was their most reliable and maintenance-friendly fleet type until recently, when the A319 fleet matured and took over. NW was so unhappy with the A320 (initially) that they considered purchasing the B73G/B738 instead in 1997.
 
Guest

RE: North West Possibly Be Forced To Retire DC9s Early

Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:42 pm

SO the DC-9s have 717 style interiors?

Yes.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sanjiv Kapoor

Who is online