L.1011
Topic Author
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Boeing's Current Order Book

Wed Jun 25, 2003 10:49 pm

From Boeings website:
717-200:
9 customers
155 orders
118 deliveries
Backlog:37

717 TOTAL
9 customers
155 orders
118 deliveries

737-600
7 customers
76 orders
50 deliveries
Backlog:26

737-700
46 customers
812 orders
457 deliveries
Backlog:355

737-700BBJ
1 customer (Boeing Business Jets)
73 orders
65 deliveries
Backlog: 8

737-800
46 customers
1060 orders
703 deliveries
Backlog: 357

737-800BBJ
1 customer (BBJ)
8 orders
7 deliveries
Backlog: 1

737-900
6 customers
51 orders
33 deliveries

737NG TOTAL
74 customers
2080 orders
1315 deliveries
Backlog:765

747-400
34 customers
455 orders
434 deliveries
Backlog: 19

747-400D
2 customers
19 orders
19 deliveries
Backlog: 0

747-400ER
1 customer
6 orders
4 deliveries
Backlog: 2

747-400ERF
4 customers
11 orders
5 deliveries
Backlog: 6

747-400F
13 customers
98 orders
80 deliveries
Backlog: 18

747-400M
13 customers
61 orders
61 deliveries
Backlog:0

747-400 TOTAL
41 customers
648 orders
603 deliveries
Backlog: 45

757-200
52 customers
906 orders
905 deliveries
Backlog: 1

757-200PF
3 customers
80 orders
80 deliveries
Backlog: 0

757-300
7 customers
62 orders
42 deliveries
Backlog: 20

757 TOTAL
55 customers
1048 orders
1027 deliveries
Backlog: 21

767-200
17 customers
128 orders
128 deliveries
Backlog: 0

767-200ER
29 customers
117 orders
113 deliveries
Backlog: 4

767-300
7 customers
104 orders
104 deliveries
Backlog: 0

767-300ER
41 customers
505 orders
482 deliveries
Backlog: 23

767-300F
5 customers
40 orders
40 deliveries
Backlog:0

767-400ER
2 customers
37 orders
37 deliveries
Backlog: 0

767 TOTAL
65 customers
931 orders
904 deliveries
Backlog: 27

777-200
10 customers
86 orders
82 deliveries
Backlog: 4

777-200ER
30 customers
406 orders
309 deliveries
Backlog: 97

777-200LR
2 customers
5 orders
0 deliveries
Backlog: 5

777-300
9 customers
65 orders
47 deliveries
Backlog: 18

777-300ER
8 customers
56 orders
0 deliveries
Backlog: 56

777 TOTAL
36 customers
618 orders
438 deliveries
Backlog: 180

On an interesting side note, Boeing said it would sell 170 777-300s by 2006. They've sold 121 through Sept. 11 and the worst economy in years. If the upward trend continues, we might just see 170 sold.
Cheers  Big thumbs up
 
L.1011
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 12:30 am

Any comments? I thought the Airbus supporters would have been all over this by now.
 
bobrayner
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:16 am

Why? Numbers are numbers, and there's little to argue over!

Interesting reminder of how relatively small the backlogs are for the 717, 757, and 767; they all face stiffer competition.

I could paste in similar numbers for Airbus, if you want?  Smile
Cunning linguist
 
na
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:23 am

I´m not partial for A or B, I´ve favorites in both camps.

The list shows the 747 line has orders for 3-4 years at the current pace. After the 737 and the 777 its -despite the bad press of the past 12 months- the 3rd healthiest product-line of Boeing!
The 777 has a bad year but the ER version orders of past years keep it going through this valley of sorrows. But interesting to see that the -300ER has received just 50% of the orders the A380 got in less time!
The 737 line is very healthy and the 717 is doing somewhat allright at its low pace.
But the backlog clearly emphasizes that the 757 and 767 lines are virtually dead, with just a years production left (ignoring the USAF 767 tanker order -is that order carved in stone?). The 757 line might have to be closed down in 2006.

 
CX747
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:27 am

Well, the 767-200's order book needs to be increased by 100 airframes now that the Air Force has placed an order for 100 airframes to serve as tanker/transports. The 757 is on its last leg, and with the advent of longer range 737NGs, I assume it will be allowed to pass quietly. The 737NG, 747 and 777 programs are all solid. The 7E7 will more than likely sell like hotcakes and the 747 "Adv" will allow Boeing to squeeze more life out of the design until it can manufacture a totally new aircraft after 2010.

Boeing is not flying hight right now, but they are trimming down their product lines and developing a new product that will more than likely dominate its market. In my opinion, the 7E7 is going to be an aircraft like the 747. It and the 777 will carry Boeing for quite some time and control their respective markets.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
L.1011
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:30 am

CX747,
I know about the KC-767. I didn't include it because Boeing didn't. This info s directly from the Boeing website.
 
thomacf
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:41 am

Can anyone provide Airbuses numbers so we can compare? Which is doing better?
 
L.1011
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:41 am

MY ANALYSIS
717:
The 757 experienced a similar order trough during its early years and ended up being quite successful. I think the 717 may do the same.
737:
Boeings bread and butter. This is the money maker and that backlog will do nothing but grow.
747:
The 744ER has potential and will probably sell quite well once the market gets going again. The ERF will probably be a huge hit. Look for a much larger backlog soon.
757:
The 752 is probably pretty much dead, though orders may start coming again. Its a wildcard. The 753 will probably become a LOT more successful. i don't think the 75 is ready to die.
767:
The KC order will revitalize the backlog, but the 7E7 will replace the 76 quite nicely. My outlook here is brighter in the short term than the 75 but cloudier in the long term.
777:
Another Everett winner. The NGs will sell enormously once the market picks up. The earlier models will slowly die off.
 
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PW100
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 3:56 am

From
http://www.airbus.com/media/orders_n_deliveries.asp


With more than 4,500 aircraft ordered by international customers, Airbus is an undisputed world leader in the civil air transport marketplace.

As of 31st May 2003

A300
589 orders
522 deliveries
67 backlog

A310
260 orders
255 deliveries
5 backlog

A300/310
849 orders
777 deliveries
72 backlog
86 customers



A318
84 orders
0 deliveries
84 backlog

A319
888 orders
513 deliveries
375 backlog

A320
1660 orders
1181 deliveries
479 backlog

A321
418 orders
277 deliveries
141 backlog

A318/319/320/321
3050 orders
1971 deliveries
1079 backlog
112 customers



A330
452 orders
264 deliveries
188 backlog

A340
318 orders
230 deliveries
88 backlog

A330/340
770 orders
494 deliveries
276 backlog
63 customers



A380
95 orders
0 deliveries
95 backlog
8 customers







PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
0A340
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 3:59 am

Can anyone provide Airbuses numbers so we can compare? Which is doing better?

Comparison:

total Boeing Backlog: 1075 aircraft (just added up from the first posting)

total Airbus Backlog: 1522 aircraft (not including the recent Le Bourget orders). Source http://www.airbus.com/dynamic/media/index.asp




 
md-87er
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:18 am

Numbers are numbers

What impresses me most of the Airbus list is the 1660 orders for the 320, that is the real moneymaker for Airbus.....
 
backfire
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:31 am

...that is the real moneymaker for Airbus


That depends how you look at it.

Airbus forecasts for the next 20 years show that the twin-aisle demand accounts for around the same dollar delivery value as the single-aisle market. But three times as many single-aisle aircraft have to be sold to reach that sum.
 
Leej
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:34 am

So it's taken over a week since Le Bourget for a Boeing fan to post some figures.....great.
Where was all the support for Boeing when Airbus announced one order after another?
I have noticed that B fans 'across the pond' have been rather silent lately - come out where ever you are!!!!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Alessandro
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:43 am

My guess for which Boeings that are in for retirement, first 757, then 767, 717
and 737.
I think Boeing will have a smaller aircraft family in the future, 7E7, tripple-7 and 747.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:51 am

So it's taken over a week since Le Bourget for a Boeing fan to post some figures

Three days constitutes "over a week"...?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:53 am

Can anyone break down the specifics of Airbus' widebody orders?

Combining all A330s and A340s into only 2 groups still leaves a lot of information lacking.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Leej
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:12 am

Sorry, I was just generalising. Over a week and a half since the show commenced. Now people are getting tetchy about dates....
Perhaps there will be some orders later for you from Farnborough!! (are B bothering to turn up this year, or will it be another virtual reality?)
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:17 am


Concordeboy

He will also say that continuing to land big orders where aircrafts are sold just above cost is a good long term business proposal.

Alessandro
So do u think that Boeing will just totally neglect the 737 market like that. Yes the 737 needs to be turned in, however if a new 737 type that ranges from the 736 to 752 market based on 7e7 improvement seems to be the logical step.
Eagles Soar!
 
eg777er
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:03 am

I think Boeing's figures clearly illustrate where the market will be in the next 15 years.....the 757/767 size aircraft. Obviously, they've looked at the numbers, and that's why they've come up with the 7E7.

Now, this puts Airbus in a difficult position as they have no competing product. A shrink of the A330 is too heavy, and if you update the A300 too much you end up with.........an A330. It's an interesting conundrum, and even with a bit of 'thinking outside the box' I can't really see a way out of it.....

Although, they could go for a different cross-section but that would cancel out the side-by-side LD3 advantage......
 
AC320
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:08 am

and if you update the A300 too much you end up with.........an A330. It's an interesting conundrum, and even with a bit of 'thinking outside the box' I can't really see a way out of it.....

And that's a bad thing? Extreme commonality with the larger Airbus widebodies could be a major selling point for such an aircraft.
fuddle duddle
 
eg777er
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:11 am

Yes, it's a bad thing because the A300 (with the same wing) went to the maximum level of modernisation with the -600R, and the A330 is too heavy to be shrunk further. So what do you do? Design a wing in-between?
 
AvObserver
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:27 am

Alessandro
"My guess for which Boeings that are in for retirement, first 757, then 767, 717
and 737. I think Boeing will have a smaller aircraft family in the future, 7E7, tripple-7 and 747."

Boeing will continue to market the 757 for a time; it thinks there's potential in China but there's a real question as to whether U.S. domestics will come back to it. The 767 will fade as a paxliner but will continue for some years in its' military tanker form, the USAF has indicated strong interest in KC-767 orders well beyond the 100-unit lease now finalized; it desperately needs to replace hundreds of KC-135s over the next couple of decades. Boeing has said there's been a lot of interest in the 717 in the last 6 months; as the economy picks up, there should be new orders-it should be around for some years, I'd think. WHY the 737?-unitwise, it's by far, Boeing's best performer; it should continue for more than a decade longer. "737NG TOTAL: 74 customers, 2080 orders, 1315 deliveries, Backlog:765". I think the 747 will continue as a niche market airplane, bridging the gap between the 773-ERs/A346s and the A388. There won't be lots of orders, as the 744 used to enjoy but there'll be enough to sustain the line, including a proposed Advanced version. The 777 should continue to rack up solid orders as the economy improves and the 7E7 will probably be a hit out of the park if Boeing's DOC projections are accurate.

Leej
"Where was all the support for Boeing when Airbus announced one order after another? I have noticed that B fans 'across the pond' have been rather silent lately - come out where ever you are!!!!"

A valid question. No doubt this has been the 2nd Paris Air Show where Airbus has positively humiliated Boeing in orders, recall the massive Airbus ILFC order in 2001? This is somewhat skewed by Airbus's policy of saving up order announcements for the show but, nevertheless, Airbus is WAY ahead of Boeing this year. Again, I largely blame Boeing's 1999 abandonment (for the most part) of aggressive discounting for this huge disparity; its' market share has slipped greatly since then. Ignoring for now the direct/Airbus vs. indirect/Boeing subsidy issue, I think this strategy change was a huge mistake, sacrificing long-term market presense for short-term profitability. It's a perfect way to steer former customers straight to Airbus, regardless of competitive product merits. Now, if Boeing and the U.S. feel they have a valid case against the E.U. and Airbus, they should get going and bring it to the W.T.O., otherwise Boeing should just bite the bullet and honestly TRY to compete. Boeing need not lose so many many orders if it adjusts its' sales practices. In a dog-eat-dog world, you HAVE to be aggressive-Airbus obviously understood this when IT was the underdog. Now that Boeing is the underdog (in commercial aircraft sales, at least), it MUST adopt that same David vs. Goliath mentality and attack Airbus on all fronts; unless, of course, it merely wishes to diversify itself out of the business and hand the entire market to Airbus. HOW'S THAT, AIRBUS FANS? Heavy criticism of Boeing BY a Boeing fan!  Wink/being sarcastic









 
kevs
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:44 am

First, I have to delcare that I have no intention to start any A and B flame war. I love both airbus and boeing aircrafts...

Just one question...

in those backlog orders, how many of them are 'real' orders..

I am wondering does Airbus includes airlines 'options' in that.

over a thousand backlogs for A32X is something unbelievable.
what I read from last two week flight internation is the highest
production rate of A32X achieved is 11 bodies in a month..

doing some simple math,
1079 / 11 = 8.17 years.
are there some airlines would like to wait as long as 8.17 years?

by the way, except some 'theoretic' ETOPS arguements,
comparing B773ER backlog with A34X backlog, I want to
see the impact of 772LR, 773ER on A345/6..

 
Spacepope
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:54 am

I see that the airbus site still has the Iraqi Airways A-310 order listed. Are the cancelled A-330s from the older NW order still in there? I believe they were taking 4 airframes off the tally each year.. there should be 16 or so cancelled airframes there.

T.J.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
AvObserver
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Sat Jun 28, 2003 3:08 am

One thing I forgot to mention which I think we may all wonder about is why there's never seems to be any press in the mainstream news or commercial aviation publications about the great disparity in Airbus/Boeing order totals in the last couple of years. Why is nobody really talking about this, aside from fleeting mentions every so often? I mean Boeing's only landed about 40 orders this year versus about-what-222 for Airbus! That's a canyon-size gap and the fair number of high-value A380s in that total only increases its' significance. I think this is a huge story being deliberately avoided by much of the press though I'm at a loss to understand why. I'd think both premier sources like Flight International and Aviation Week would want to do in-depth analysis on this but they don't. Is it because they accept advertising from both companies and don't want to risk offending either? If so, BAD editorial policy on both counts. I've been wondering about this for the last couple of years, why is such a hot issue trated like it's a hot potato? Phil Condit pooh-poohed it in Paris as if it's no big deal. It IS a big deal but nobody seems to want to touch on it. Are the rest of you out there as curious as I about this? Why is the fact that Boeing is currently losing the order battle seemingly a largely forbidden subject? Your thoughts on this; Airbus and Boeing fans alike?  Confused
 
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PW100
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Sat Jun 28, 2003 7:36 am

One thing I forgot to mention which I think we may all wonder about is why there's never seems to be any press in the mainstream news or commercial aviation publications about the great disparity in Airbus/Boeing order totals in the last couple of years. Why is nobody really talking about this, aside from fleeting mentions every so often? . . .

Well, Airbus have been pointing out this order advantage over "the competition" for years, but that had always been refuted by Boeing, who was more than willing to point out that it is all about deliveries, not orders. Boeing always let the world now that it was deliveries that were bringing in the cash, not orders.
It has been several years ago that Boeing had a real order advantage over Airbus. But only this year everybody seems to realize the inevitable: Airbus is going to deliver more planes than Boeing! And given their huge orderbook, it doesn't look like Boeing is going to catch up this decade.

One must also understand that Boeing deliveries have been very high sinc ethe early nineties [except for the last two years], thereby eating up their backlog at a must faster pace than Airbus when orders went down the drain. Airbus on the other hand, was still in the process of ramping up production to meet growing demand. Except for one year, Airbus consistently sold more planes each year than that they were producing that same year. In a year that Boeing reduced their output over 40%, Airbus managed to maintain production levels at a comparable level to the previous year, without really hurting their backlog.

The writing had been on the wall for years, but Boeing wasn't willing to accept that they were being overtaken by Airbus. Now it's a fact they can not ignore. Maybe this is what they need in order to convince themselves that they really need to come up with new/improved products, instead of throwing in ideas just to steal some limelight [SC, 747-500/600 come to mind], only to have them cancelled by beancounters/ex MDC-management.

PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
donder10
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:01 am

And that's a bad thing? Extreme commonality with the larger Airbus widebodies could be a major selling point for such an aircraft.
Could be another A318 though.


Given Boeing's backtrack on the Sonic Cruiser,I suspect some will have a little less faith in Boeing's ability to match its projected figures for the 7E7.If it does then it could change the medium-term outlook for long-haul flights.

The B737NG is still selling well but perhaps the 739 would sell a lot better if it got the increased emergency exit seats(happening now?).Perhaps an attempt to prolong the life of the 752?

 
AvObserver
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:22 am

EXTREMELY well put, PW100! I NEVER could understand why Boeing always retorted "it is all about deliveries, not orders"; that's only true up to a point. If you're only talking about the net total after any order cancellations that's an okay statement to make, however for Boeing to use this line every time Airbus beat the pants off of them in an order competition was foolhardy; they should've known it would eventually come back to bite them in the ass! And I agree with you that it'll probably take a decade or more for them to battle back to market parity even if they do everything right from now on. You're probably also right in that this year in particular must be a serious wake-up call for them. I wish someone from Boeing reads your post, lots of constructive criticism, probably just the sort of bad-tasting medicine they need. The truth is that orders determine future deliveries so it really is about orders first, then deliveries. I really don't know whether Boeing management itself is so deluded or whether they know and are merely trying to delude the rest of us but I'm sure they've been doing something very wrong to have let this happen. If this trend isn't reversed, they could be out of the civil transport business within 20 years, a disquieting prospect for all, given that Airbus could then charge about anything they want for planes and get it. And getting back to my other point, don't you in fact find it peculiar that there's virtually no discussion in the press of the order imbalance; the topic appears to be largely off-limits in the foremost aviation sources. What's up with that?
 
AvObserver
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:01 am

The next issue of Flight International promises a recap of the Paris Air Show and perhaps, finally, a article on the order disparity phenomenon. I'm hoping Aviation Week touches on it too; at some point these mainstream publications will have to stop deliberately ignoring what is so plain to all of us, advertising considerations be damned.
 
wingman
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:19 am

Over the past three years what is the total order difference between Airbus and Boeing? Over that same period, how many more aircraft did Boeing deliver over Airbus? I think you'll find some of the answers to the "disparity" issue right there/ And 2003 is only halfway over. Someone above mentioned "high value" 380 orders...not very high value when going for the list price of a 330. I'm extremely curious to see what MAS and KAL are paying for theirs. Less than $180M per frame I would guess but we'll see when the terms are announced. One final point to Beoing's crdit, deliveries are the ONLY thing that matter aside of course from profitability. Orders can always be cancelled and buyers can always go bankrupt.
 
0A340
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:48 am

To help you understand, Wingman:

Today's Deliveries = Yesterday's orders that never got cancelled
Tomorrows Deliveries = Today's orders that will not get cancelled.

Now, in the past, no question, Boeing was King. Outnumbered Airbus by far in the orders field.
Today, however, Airbus has surpassed Boeing in orders (1500:1000 and counting), and has a vastly more expanded, yet simplified lineup. Even this year, Boeing is falling behind in deliveries AND is really in the dust in orders.

Now, how many of today's order will get cancelled? Well, the field is level for both manufacturers. The aviation industry is in weak spot globally, not in a specific Continent. Some specific trends may exist in the Pacific Rim that do not apply to the domestic US or the Transatlantic market, but overall, the chances of some Boeing orders being cancelled are equal to the chances of the Airbus orders being cancelled, too. We may go on forever discussing to the death the possibilities of Airline X to cancel their Airbusses vs. the possibilities of Airline Y to cancel their Boeings...

George
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Mon Jun 30, 2003 2:02 pm


2002

Airbus
Net Orders
233
Deliveries
303

Boeing
Net Orders
176
Deliveries
381

2001

Airbus
Net Orders
274
Deliveries
325

Boeing
Net Orders
272
Deliveries
527

2000

Airbus
Net Orders
492
Deliveries
311

Boeing
Net Orders
589
Deliveries
489

1999

Airbus
Net Orders
430
Deliveries
294

Boeing
Net Orders
346
Deliveries
620

1998

Airbus
Net Orders
529
Deliveries
229

Boeing
Net Orders
606
Deliveries
563

 
wingman
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Tue Jul 01, 2003 2:27 am

So OA340, are we seeing the light yet? Airbus has a larger backlog principally because it has been slower to deliver product. It does not have 1500 orders compared to Boeing's 1000. Please look at the previous post and if you still don't understand we can all try to explain it in simpler terms. In the past three years, Boeing has actually won about 30 more orders in total than Airbus. It's just been carnking them out the door at a much faster clip. You'll also note that many aviation analysts are becoming quite concerned about the pricing margins Airbus is willing to drop to in order to sell. Some people may say they are smarter than Boeing but many analysts think it could well be a hint of desperation for cash flow to pay off a project according to international law for the first time in the company's existance. I wouldn't be celebrating success quite yet.
 
osteogenesis
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Tue Jul 01, 2003 3:35 am

Only if you pick the last 3 years. If you pick the last 2 years or the last 4 years it in favor of Airbus. Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Not that this really matters. But it is still funny to see how you pick your numbers. You would be a great politician “Wingman“.
 
wingman
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RE: Boeing's Current Order Book

Tue Jul 01, 2003 5:33 am

Fine, last two years Airbus outsold Boeing by 60 airframes while Boeing delivered some 280 more than Airbus. Still paints the same picture relative to the backlogs doesn't it? I'l give Airbus one thing, they have the slickest PR machine in history. Everyone is so down on Boeing but the reality each company is going through is quite the opposite of what you'd think after spending an afternoon with Leahy. Spend an afternoon with the CFO and his bankers instead (or shareholders) and the Airbus crowd wouldn't be feeling quite so glorious. When I see people celbrating like they're on an ecstasy high but the company they're celebrating has a share price down significantly on the year it makes me wonder.