Dirkou
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Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:23 am

Hello

Would like to know your opinions about Frontier to be bought by JetBlue.

Same kind of of fleet, companies with a similar "style", Frontier is not finatially very strong and JetBlue needs a Western Coast hub (Long beach has slot restrictions)...

Also they have some kind of agreement with the Direct TV screens on their planes. Could this be a start to a stronger agreement?

Andre
 
777guy
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:28 am

I would be surprised because they both seem to have their own management philosophy. I would think Jetblue has there own expansion plan that does not require acquisistions. But then I was surprised by their EMB190 order so who knows?
 
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mariner
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:40 am

Dirkou:

If you check Frontier's finances, they're stronger than you think. They have about $130 million in the bank (which is a lot for them), and all the new planes are financed.

Like most airlines, they'll show a profit this quarter (because of the Federal money), but it's likely that F9 will come close to breaking even without this money.

They have also repaid about $12 million of the $70 million loan that was guaranteed by the ATSB.

A lot of people have talk about the possibility of a merger/buy-out with JetBlue, but it doesn't seem likely at the moment.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Dirkou
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:43 am

Just a small correction to the title:
"Frontier to be bought by JetBlue?" and not the "Will...". Sorry for the error.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:12 am

Also JetBlue owns the company that provides the direct TV for planes. So anyone who wants to offer direct TV on there planes will be purchasing it from JetBlue.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
goingboeing
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:56 am

If Jetblue decides to buy Frontier, then that would be the beginning of their demise.
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:59 am

did jetblue get federal money or can airlines opt not to recieve it
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
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mariner
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 7:01 am

Luv2fly:

I'm not sure that JetBlue is interested in selling the tv system to other airlines.

Frontier was a unique case - they had signed a letter of intent before JetBlue purchased LiveTV, and JetBlue said they would honor the agreement.

But Doug Parker, the CEO of America West was asked about it in a town hall meeting. He said that the tv is "a winner". He also said that AWA "almost had a deal" with LiveTV, but then JetBlue bought the company and AWA is looking for another supplier.

So either this means LiveTV wants too much money for the service, or JetBlue wants to keep LiveTV as a proprietary brand for themselves (and Frontier).

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
bigtidi
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 7:44 am

Well this all sound familiar.....Early 80's successful East coast start up airline People Express buys Denver hubbed Frontier. Granted circumstances were different, both were on a downslide and losing money. But it did not work that time, will they learn from the past. I don't think that either JetBlue or Frontier need to change their independent ways, they are both very successful. Lets wait and see how long their ride lasts.
 
janne
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:00 am

NO!
Or maybe YES!
/jl
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:17 am


I think the management team at Frontier is very cautious about expansion, and merging. Remember they were going to merge with Western Pacific but after they reviewed "the books" they pulled out.
Personally I think Frontier is happy just as they are, a LCC that is undergoing carefully planned and structured expansion. I hope to see them around for quite a while.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
luv2fly
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:38 am

mariner

Now that you mentioned it I do remember reading that Frontier had made the decision to add the direct TV and then JetBlue bought the company. Could it be that AWA does not want to pay what JetBlue is asking for the service? I do believe it was a good move on there part to buy the service and keep it exclusive and a novelty.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
artsyman
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:52 am

Like most airlines, they'll show a profit this quarter (because of the Federal money),

Actually most airlines will not show a profit this quarter despite the federal money. I believe Continental will show a profit that goes beyond the federal money, but I think Delta, AA, UAL, will still be in the loss column even after the federal money. Jetblue will have received the money also, as it is a refund of the excess tax burder of 2.50 per passenger per leg that they all have had to pay since 9.11. Oddly enough, almost everyone got more than Continental got this time around. Southwest got loads
 
elwood64151
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:55 am

Bigtidi:

You're remembering that with PeoplExpress, both airlines were on a down-slide, but in this case both airlines are on an up-swing.

I think the real reason why these two airlines would not merge is that Frontier is a hub-and-spoke airline while JetBlue is a direct point-to-point airline. There are almost no connections on JetBlue, realistically speaking, except to those few northeastern cities. So we're talking about two very different airlines with very different markets.

However, the fact that both fly A32Xs and offer similar in-flight ammenities does give one reason to believe that there is potential for a merger. JetBlue doesn't have the financials to buy Frontier-yet-but they are about the right size to merge with one another.

The real test will be to see what AirTran does with the order this summer. If they buy a large number of long-range aircraft (i.e. 75-plus 73X or 100-plus A32X), then a Frontier-JetBlue merger looks more likely because they'll need bulk to survive against a potentially huge LCC that flies to both airline's markets, which WN mostly does not.

But then again, if FL buys Airbuses, then FL-F9 or B6-FL could be a possibility. If they choose Boeing, then F9-B6 looks more likely, due to fleet compatibility. Or all three could stay independent. We'll just have to wait and see.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
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mariner
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 9:10 am

Type-rated:

I agree. I'd rather see F9 stay on it's present path. However, I could see a codeshare happening. They've already discussed that with Airtran, but decided against it - for now.

Luv2fly:

I don't think (?) the LiveTV prices can be that much greater (or less) than any other provider of the service.

The clear impression I got from what AWA CEO Parker said was that the service was not available to AWA after JetBlue bought the company. But it was only an impression, and I could as easily be wrong.

Artysman:

I was being cautious. If I'd said "Frontier will show a profit this quarter because of the federal money", I'd guess a few people would have jumped on me, saying that other airlines will show a profit because of it, too.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
cptkrell
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 10:27 am

I hope not. I like the timber woofs and such on the Frontier fins. Regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 10:51 am

I agree with Mariner, a code-share would be a more likely scenario than a merger. B6 has a squadron of new aircraft on order, and the age of "critical mass or die" is over. The two companies have similar products, but vastly different operations. However, if you overlap the two route maps they do compliment each other, tho B6 has a big gap in the midwest. I have long advocated a loose alliance among B6, FL, F9 and TZ. They could each continue to operate and grow from their respective areas, keep the majors on their toes and provide an option to WN as well as providing reasonable fares in markets WN hasn't entered.
Next up: STL-CVG-MKE-MSP-STL.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:00 am

I would say no. JetBlue is able to achieve very high growth internally. They have their hands full with that.

A key aspect of JetBlue success is its uniform fleet (IAE 320s) with Frontier does not have (Frontier has CFM 319/318 and 733). Another aspect is the unique culture/image of JetBlue which would be diluted with a Frontier buy.

On the other hand, a DEN hub to complement the JFK and LGB hubs might make sense and enable full continental coverage.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:05 am

With the high fees and Denver I would be surprised to see JetBlue do much more than they already do presently! I could see possible COS, and with that they would not have to compete with two other airlines.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
desertjets
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:10 am

A big point that has been only slightly touched is that mergers are expensive and often painful for the organization. There are not many examples of major airlines mergers that were reasonably successful and the fruits of the merger have remained long after the fact. Any of the LCCs could probably gain just as much by standardizing their information systems and doing a large codeshare and FF program network. In effect create as much of a seemless system as possible, direct traffic into and through the partners' networks without having to go through the problems of a merger. If DL/NW/CO can pull their mega codeshare off successfully, why could not a B6/F9/FL/TZ/HP or whatever combo not work in a large codeshare setup?
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
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mariner
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:16 am

Luv2fly:

A year ago, Denver (DIA) Airport had plans to extend Terminal A, with (I think) twelve new gates and nine of them going to Frontier.

The plan was put on hold when UAL went bk, because no one knew what was going to happen - and now F9 is running out of gate space. Should I say "has run out of gate space"?

The point is that JetBlue said they would like "two or three" of the new gates in the extension. So at that time, they were looking to expand a tad at Denver.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:34 am

Being a Frontier employee, I can assure you that F9 and B6 will not be merging anytime in the near future. What happens 5/10 years down the road is another story, but as of now, both airline's will continue on their own path to success.


Steve in N.O
 
ouboy79
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:14 pm

The worst thing you could do to an airline, is put it through a merger. Neither JetBlue nor Frontier have the funds required to buy the other one out. Both have funds completely tied up with new aircraft purchases and just surviving. Frontier has their niche, JetBlue has theirs...why should they change something that is working for them? It was said before...Frontier was going to go through with a merger with WestPac before they saw something on the spreedsheet they didn't like and cancelled the deal (which led to the collapse of WP). I don't think they would see merging with JetBlue any more secure...here is an airline in the midst of a huge a/c order and its fleet is relatively young and will see its operating costs soar in the next 3-5 years.

Just a wishful idea is all this thread is. They each have their niche and there is no sense in screwing that up.
 
wilax
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Mon Jun 30, 2003 5:04 am

Rotten move...

Jetblue's key is a standardized fleet. Not one plane in Frontier's fleet matches, DEN is too costly and for now, dominated by UA, so what's the advantage. They would do better to add A320's, put a hub in albequerque, and step on Frontier.
 
wilax
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Mon Jun 30, 2003 5:06 am

Rotten move...

Jetblue's key is a standardized fleet. Not one plane in Frontier's fleet matches, DEN is too costly and for now, dominated by UA, so what's the advantage. They would do better to add A320's, put a hub in albequerque, and step on Frontier.
 
gigneil
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:20 am

WP's demise was brought on by a combination of Ed Beauvais' failing health, and the new CEO's irrational decision to move to Denver and take on both United and Frontier on their home turf at a brand new airport.

The Frontier merger would have slowed the bleeding... but was really just a last ditch effort to not die.

Sucks too... the city of Colorado Springs put a lot of heart and effort into making WP successful.

N
 
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mariner
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:27 am

Wilax:

"JetBlue's key is a standardized fleet".

Um - JetBlue has just placed a big order for Embraers as well as the A320's. Not quite "standardized."

Within a couple of years, Frontier will have all A320 family. Which fits my definition of "standardized."

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Dirkou
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RE: Will Frontier Be Bought By JetBlue?

Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:56 am

BTW and taking in account all this discussion what do you think will be JetBlue's west coast hub? I believe Long Beach is not possible because of the slot limitations...

Phoenix os LAS -> AWE and SWA already there.
Denver -> FFT and UAL...

What about San Diego?

Would like to know your opinion.

Andre
 
doug_or
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:38 am

Being in the corner of the country, I don't really think San Diego would be much of a hub. A focus city maybe, but a true hub- no.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
elwood64151
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:18 am

San Diego needs a new runway before it could be a hub. That's at least ten years away.

A company does not need to buy another company out in order to merge with it. Using what is called a "stock swap", meaning shareholders of each company get a specified number of shares in the other company, two companies can merge with a net-zero exchange of funds.

West-Pac's demise was in part due to the massive change in costs due to the fees and rents at DEN rather than COS. Also Ed Beuvais failing health and poor management hurt it. The last nail in the coffin was losing the merger deal with F9. Too bad, too, since it was a nice little airline while it lasted.

I would not actually have a hub on the west coast. There is no location that really makes a lot of sense. Unlike the east coast, which has several large, medium-, and small-sized cities, the west coast is mostly large cities and small towns. I would operate the west coast in a point-to-point fashion, much the same way Alaska and Southwest currently operate. It simply makes more sense.

My $.04.

Cheers!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:23 am

Elwood64151

I agree I do not believe they need a true West Coast hub, maybe a strong focus city, like LGB is already. Do the point to point and let the majors have the hubs, after all we see how well the hub and spoke system is working, or not working.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
JetRanger2000
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:58 am

Perhaps Portland or Seattle as west coast hub?

Some merging is fine, IMO. If both companies have the same vision, a merger might help them acheive it. However, I do not like larger companies merging with smaller companies (like AA/Reno Air) or two large companies coming together (like AA/TWA). The real question would be if they would remain two seperate brands.
 
9V-SVE
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RE: Will Frontier To Be Bought By JetBlue?

Mon Jun 30, 2003 12:02 pm

They would never take Seattle - its a big Alaskan hub.

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